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'Lazy learner'


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7 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

In the parable of the talents, Jesus used the phrase "wicked servant" to describe the one that didn't do anything. Perhaps you would have preferred President Nelson use that phrase?

The majority of doubters I know weren't lazy. They delved in and studied church history for hours and hours and into the night and sometimes for years. I'd consider myself to be more lazy when I was a full believer and chose not to study church history when a leader or teacher in church suggested we do. It wasn't until I started finding things I hadn't known that made me take a deep dive. And that includes many hours of prayer as well. 

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16 minutes ago, Zeniff said:

The Lord has consistently referred to us - we who believe in him and proclaim his true gospel - as the weak and despised of the earth.  We know we are flawed and imperfect and yet we are still his church. So we don't worship ourselves. We worship God.

????

Who said anything about worshipping ourselves? Having enough self-awareness as a church to recognize the flaws and the reasons why many struggle with faith because of the church is hardly worshipping the church. You are either reading something into this that isn't there, or simply didn't understand what I wrote.

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8 minutes ago, ttribe said:

The intimate details of the collapse of my faith are not for public consumption. This board is not a safe place for that.

Not only that, but IMO the idea of "choosing to stop believing" is BS.

I don't think many people wake up and decide to stop believing. For many, study and prayer lead them away from the church.

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7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Not only that, but IMO the idea of "choosing to stop believing" is BS.

I don't think many people wake up and decide to stop believing. For many, study and prayer lead them away from the church.

If you had not said prayer I would have agreed with your opinion, but prayer denotes not only praying to God but also receiving ideas from him and I am 100% assured by God that he would never lead anyone away from the church of his son Jesus Christ.

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13 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Thanks for the answer. I remember that we have talked about this before. I wonder if that would still be your answer if you were experiencing the type of isolation I described.

 

Being isolated from like minded people is never fun or easy, but I don't want people to pretend they don't sincerely believe something on my account; I wouldn't find that helpful or comforting.  Especially if you think that I am being hurt by not accepting it myself.  I might completely disagree with you, and I still want you to be nice to me if I do, so if your personal belief is to treat everyone who disagrees with you like crap then I won't respect that, but otherwise, be honest.  That is important to me.

What I personally find most valid and reasonable is when people behave according to their beliefs.  What I find most annoying and difficult to deal with is when they don't.  If you sincerely believe I'm going to hell then don't pretend you don't believe that when I'm around or because you don't want to hurt my feelings.   I'd rather know what I'm dealing with that live in a community of pretense.  

Best case scenario is that you don't believe I'm going to hell but if you do, then I can accept that and respect your honesty about it.

  

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Zeniff said:

If you had not said prayer I would have agreed with your opinion, but prayer denotes not only praying to God but also receiving ideas from him and I am 100% assured by God that he would never lead anyone away from the church of his son Jesus Christ.

Yeah, I was just lying. 

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I can completely understand your perspective and recognize you are expressing it honestly, even if I sometimes disagree with it.  What I don't really understand is this idea that because you disagree with him, Pres. Nelson isn't being honest when he speaks from his perspective.

It seems like a double standard. 

It goes back to the point I made about the long term. More and more people in the world are becoming aware of the fragility of religious claims despite them being treated as objective truth.

They are learning that God claims have not been proven and that that is the intellectually honest position.

It's not a double standard for me to reject unprovable/ unproven claims and to expect mature people to acknowledge that they're unproven.

Edited by Meadowchik
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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

The majority of doubters I know weren't lazy. They delved in and studied church history for hours and hours and into the night and sometimes for years.

If they've actually put in all the effort, then it doesn't sound like they are the group President Nelson refers to as Lazy Learners.

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21 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Great points. I get why an individual would find value in it.

But I also think it is fair to recognize that when we as a people are encouraged to liken the words unto ourselves, and follow the prophet, it comes across as a broad judgement of a large group of people and I think that's why people are upset. For those who find value, great. For those who feel judged, not just by Pres. Nelson, but also by all those who heard Pres. Nelson, then not as great.

I'm going to sound like a real jerk when I say this, but sometimes the problem isn't with other people, it's with us

We need to work on our self worth.  We can be a thinned skinned, easily offended, easily provoked, "either you believe everything I do and am is perfect or you are being mean" people.  The scriptures teach that whom God loveth, He chasteneth but we have turned that around to whom God (or the prophet, etc.) thinks is worthless and unlovable, He chasteneth, and it's really not doing us any favors, emotionally, physically, or mentally.

If we know the words of the prophet don't apply to us, why would we feel judged by them?  If you aren't a lazy learner or lax disciple, how do the prophets words speaking specifically to those people apply to you?

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Just now, bluebell said:

I'm going to sound like a real jerk when I say this, but sometimes the problem isn't with other people, it's with us

We need to work on our self worth.  We can be a thinned skinned, easily offended, easily provoked, "either you believe everything I do and am is perfect or you are being mean" people.  The scriptures teach that whom God loveth, He chasteneth but we have turned that around to whom God (or the prophet, etc.) thinks is worthless and unlovable, He chasteneth, and it's really not doing us any favors, emotionally, physically, or mentally.

If we know the words of the prophet don't apply to us, why would we feel judged by them?  If you aren't a lazy learner or lax disciple, how do the prophets words speaking specifically to those people apply to you?

Because we know our loved ones will cling to those words and use them as a weapon against us...but in the most loving way of course ;) 

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11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm going to sound like a real jerk when I say this, but sometimes the problem isn't with other people, it's with us

We need to work on our self worth.  We can be a thinned skinned, easily offended, easily provoked, "either you believe everything I do and am is perfect or you are being mean" people.  The scriptures teach that whom God loveth, He chasteneth but we have turned that around to whom God (or the prophet, etc.) thinks is worthless and unlovable, He chasteneth, and it's really not doing us any favors, emotionally, physically, or mentally.

If we know the words of the prophet don't apply to us, why would we feel judged by them?  If you aren't a lazy learner or lax disciple, how do the prophets words speaking specifically to those people apply to you?

Ever had a past emotional trauma dredged up?  It often still hurts, even though we've worked very hard to overcome those feelings.  In this case, it also carries with it the extra burden of reigniting feelings of betrayal and loss between family members.  It's a lit match thrown onto a pile of sticks for many people.

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Just now, HappyJackWagon said:

Because we know our loved ones will cling to those words and use them as a weapon against us...but in the most loving way of course ;) 

And if they do they need to repent. 

But we don't silence or reject truth just because some messed up people might use it as a weapon to cause pain in the secular world.  Why should we do it in the religious world? 

We don't forbid love, or suggest it should never be expressed or spoken of just because it is sometimes used as a weapon against others.  People sometimes choose to use things that are true and good or useful to hurt other people.  But we don't say "because this can be used for evil, it shouldn't be expressed or taught."

 

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2 hours ago, bluebell said:

That is such a hard thing and my heart goes out to people dealing with that.  I have no real words of wisdom, but these are some of my thoughts about it--

I have some PTSD with an issue that was triggered last night actually, by the actions of someone who didn't actually do anything seriously wrong, but triggered it anyway.  The reaction and feelings were very real, even if the danger it thought it was protecting me from wasn't  I had to get through that before I could react rationally again and it was miserable while it lasted.  I'm sure therapy would help but it's not to the extent where it's unmanageable or where it's really a problem very often so I white-knuckle it through the few episodes that I get. If it was worse I would need to seek professional help.

Being human is a minefield sometimes.  It would be amazing if we could survive or get past trauma and then never have to be reminded of it or have to feel its effects again, or have to deal with the collateral damage that it causes in families.  I so wish our minds and bodies and relationships worked that way.   Triggers suck.  They indicate wounds that haven't healed completely yet, and that sucks too.

 

 

 

 

I have an experience that I am going through..I signed up for a clinic for pickleball. Maybe I thought I was better than I am and put myself in a group that plays much better and this one woman kept hitting me with the ball, it felt like she was intending on doing it. I was seriously traumatized by it. Maybe it triggered things done to me in the past, not sure. But I totally quit the $195.00 two month clinic and asked another person I know if they would take my spot free of charge. I feel like sometimes I'm a complete loner sometimes. It was also some of the ladies treatment of me, or maybe it's all in my head. But I understand what you're saying. I hope you're doing better!

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I have an experience that I am going through..I signed up for a clinic for pickleball. Maybe I thought I was better than I am and put myself in a group that plays much better and this one woman kept hitting me with the ball, it felt like she was intending on doing it. I was seriously traumatized by it. Maybe it triggered things done to me in the past, not sure. But I totally quit the $195.00 two month clinic and asked another person I know if they would take my spot free of charge. I feel like sometimes I'm a complete loner sometimes. It was also some of the ladies treatment of me, or maybe it's all in my head. But I understand what you're saying. I hope you're doing better!

That's sweet to, in a sense, mourn with her. ❤

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24 minutes ago, Rain said:

That's sweet to, in a sense, mourn with her. ❤

❤️ Rain, you're always very kind to people. I've noticed quite a few posts to people just today, very caring ones!  

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7 hours ago, Zeniff said:

If you had not said prayer I would have agreed with your opinion, but prayer denotes not only praying to God but also receiving ideas from him and I am 100% assured by God that he would never lead anyone away from the church of his son Jesus Christ.

This is why people are reluctant to discuss their experiences on this board.  

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Ever since (well, even before due to what I knew about how the brain works, but this was a personal confirmation of my opinion) I was on a medication that shut down my ability to feel the spirit for several years as I had done in the past, I don’t make judgments about whether or not someone was personally at fault for not receiving inspiration.  Things we have no control over affect our ability to speak with God.  My belief is that we won’t be making eternally effective judgments or being judged until such limitations are removed from us and we not only accurately remember what we experienced in mortality, but we perceive accurately all that influenced us and others. The purpose of having such a limited experience is to help us learn what it is about life that we want eternally, what is truly important to us about ourselves and others.  And only by lacking something for a time can we truly value what it means to have it.  
 

I see our mortal experience as a boarding school that among other things is going to teach us how much we really value our family of God, how willing we are to work together, adapting to each other vs putting our own desires foremost without regard to how they impact others.  I don’t think it is wisdom to give those who don’t care as much, if not more, for helping others make their lives work divine, infinite power and influence over others less progressed than themselves....nor will those who are self centered going to want to have to be concerned with that..but they might assume they are if they hadn’t been given the opportunity already to find out about themselves here in mortality (because imo painting oneself in a rosy light is a very human characteristic that may be an eternal habit that only reality can change).

As far as “lazy learners”, etc....when I hear that term, I think more of active, faithful members who don’t put much personal effort into building what they currently have into something stronger, deeper....whether they don’t realize the storms are coming or they somehow think that a passive faith is as strong as an active one.  It is not those who can’t feel the Spirit who are lazy in many cases in my experience, but those who easily can and they assume it will always be that way.  I think I put more effort into trying to figure out what the Spirit wanted me to know during the times I couldn’t experience it directly than much of the time when I feel the Spirit as soon as I incline my thoughts in that direction.  Just as sometimes those with learning disabilities work the hardest with what they got when it comes to learning how to read or learn math, those who study and act to learn spiritual knowledge may not be lazy at all, but they still may not be able to  make the necessary connections.  
 

Why would we expect spiritual learning to be fundamentally different than other forms of learning and therefore believe we all have equal opportunity to receive the Spirit no matter what our personal circumstances are?

The Lord has promised we won’t lose out on any eternal blessings that we miss in mortality through no fault of our own.  I think that is just not the obvious stuff such as missing out on marriage and children due to various limitations imposed on us in our lives, but spiritual gifts that help us connect with God as well.  Not everyone receives the same set.

Edited by Calm
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9 hours ago, ttribe said:

The intimate details of the collapse of my faith are not for public consumption. This board is not a safe place for that.

Are you sure? I mean there are plenty of sensitive and sympathetic people here who will gladly explain in great detail that you are wrong, the various reasons you are wrong, and how your wrongness makes you inherently bad. You’re missing out.

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10 hours ago, Zeniff said:

Why did you choose to stop believing?  What or who was it that gave you the idea that you should or that it would be a good idea for you to stop believing in God?  Whoever it was or whatever it was that caused you to stop should have been ignored.

Seriously Ahab? You’re not fooling anybody.

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15 hours ago, Rain said:

I understand what you mean now. Thanks.

I don't agree with what you said.  Using it to judge others is quite different than using it to measure yourself which in context was what President Nelson was saying.

For the record, I don't believe he was using it on people such as ttribe with what he describes he has been through.  

Culturally, Mormons use the statements of prophets to judge everyone else. Just the way it is.

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