President oaks on the constitution

[Metis_LDS]

34 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Constitutions are great and all, but they only work if everyone agrees to the terms and conditions. I live abroad. We've gone through six different constitutions (all of them based on the US constitution) since I arrived because politicians always seem to find a way to tip the balances in their favor. The country next door to me has a constitution too, also based on the US Constitution, but people are now being shot dead in the streets because one party got this brilliant idea from somewhere (I dare not say where) that they could simply dispute the elections if they didn't like the results. 

Constitutions might be divinely inspired, but President Oakes seems to be warning us that we shouldn't lean too heavily on a document that doesn't live and adapt right along side of us.

I am in the UK which has no written constitution, that is all right by me.  When people turn wicked paper will not protect you.  

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, Chum said:

I couldn't find one so I grabbed the srt from the YT broadcast and applied some regex and formatting to clean it up.

I posted the text here. https://pastebin.com/inQj8eg8  It's not capitalized properly but at least you can read it.

Thanks very much!

What, please, is an "srt"?

Anyway, I took your text and reformatted it using MS Word and an ad-hoc C# program I wrote. This included paragraphing it -- possibly not according to Pres. Oaks' paragraphing, but it's probably quite close.

Since the talk still isn't available in text form, here it is after I've meddled with the formatting:

The Inspired Constitution of the United States

In this troubled time, I have felt to speak about the inspired constitution of the United States.  This constitution is of special importance to our members in the United States, but it is also a common heritage of constitutions around the world.  
    A constitution is the foundation of government.  It provides structure and limits for the exercise of government powers.  The United States constitution is the oldest written constitution still in force today.  Though originally adopted by only a small number of colonies, it soon became a model world-wide.  Today, every nation except three have adopted written constitutions.  
    In these remarks I do not speak for any political party or other group.  I speak for the United States constitution, which I have studied for more than 60 years.  I speak from my experience as a law clerk to the chief justice of the United States supreme court.  I speak from my 15 years as a professor of law, and my 3½ years as a justice on the Utah supreme court.  Most importantly, I speak from 37 years as an apostle of Jesus Christ, responsible to study the meaning of the divinely inspired United States constitution to the work of his restored church.  
    The United States constitution is unique because God revealed that he "established" it "for the rights and protection of all flesh.”  That is why this constitution is of special concern for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints throughout the world.  Whether or how its principles should be applied in other nations of the world is for them to decide.  
    What was God's purpose in establishing the United States constitution? We see it in the doctrine of moral agency.  In the first decade of the restored church, its members on the western frontier were suffering private and public persecution.  Partly this was because of their opposition to the human slavery then existing in the United States.  In these unfortunate circumstances, God revealed through the prophet joseph smith eternal truths about his doctrine.  
    God has given his children moral agency -- the power to decide and to act.  The most desirable condition for the exercise of that agency is maximum freedom for men and women to act according to their individual choices.  Then, the revelation explains, "every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment."  "Therefore," the Lord revealed, "it is not right that any man should be in bondage one to another".  
    This obviously means that human slavery is wrong and according to the same principle, it is wrong for citizens to have no voice in the selection of their rulers or the making of their laws.  Our belief that the United States constitution was divinely inspired does not mean that divine revelation dictated every word and phrase, such as the provisions allocating the number of representatives from each state or the minimum age of each. 
    The constitution was not "a fully grown document," said President J. Reuben Clark.  "On the contrary," he explained, "we believe it must grow and develop to meet the changing needs of an advancing world".  For example, inspired amendments abolished slavery and gave women the right to vote.  However, we do not see inspiration in every supreme court decision interpreting the constitution.  
    I believe the United States constitution contains at least five divinely inspired principles.  First is the principle that the source of government power is the people.  In a time when sovereign power was universally assumed to come from the divine right of kings or from military power, attributing sovereign power to the people was revolutionary.  Philosophers had advocated this, but the United States constitution was the first to apply it.
      Sovereign power in the people does not mean that mobs or other groups of people can intervene to intimidate or force government action.  The constitution established a constitutional democratic republic, where the people exercise their power through their elected representatives.  
    A second inspired principle is the division of delegated power between the nation and its subsidiary states.  In our federal system, this unprecedented principle has sometimes been altered by inspired amendments, such as those abolishing slavery and extending voting rights to women, mentioned earlier.  Significantly, the United States constitution limits the national government to the exercise of powers granted expressly or by implication, and it reserves all other government powers "to the states respectively or to the people".  
    Another inspired principle is the separation of powers.  Well over a century before our 1787 constitutional convention, the English parliament pioneered the separation of legislative and executive authority when they wrested certain powers from the king.  The inspiration in the American convention was to delegate independent executive, legislative, and judicial powers so these three branches could exercise checks upon one another.  
    A fourth inspired principle is in the cluster of vital guarantees of individual rights and specific limits on government authority in the Bill of Rights, adopted by amendment just three years after the constitution went into force.  A bill of rights was not new.  Here, the inspiration was in the practical implementation of principles pioneered in England, beginning with the Magna Carta.  The writers of the constitution were familiar with these because some of the colonial charters had such guarantees.  Without a bill of rights, America could not have served as the host nation for the restoration of the gospel, which began just three decades later.  
    There was divine inspiration in the original provision that there should be no religious test for public office, but the addition of the religious freedom and anti-establishment guarantees in the First Amendment was vital.  We also see divine inspiration in the First Amendment's freedoms of speech and press and in the personal protections in other amendments, such as for criminal prosecutions.  
    Fifth and finally, I see divine inspiration in the vital purpose of the entire constitution.  We are to be governed by law and not by individuals, and our loyalty is to the constitution and its principles and processes, not to any office-holder.  In this way, all persons are to be equal before the law.  These principles block the autocratic ambitions that have corrupted democracy in some countries.  They also mean that none of the three branches of government should be dominant over the others or prevent the others from performing their proper constitutional functions to check one another.  
    Despite the divinely inspired principles of the United States constitution, when exercised by imperfect mortals their intended effects have not always been achieved.  Important subjects of law-making, such as some laws governing family relationships, have been taken from the states by the federal government.  The First Amendment guarantee of free speech has sometimes been diluted by suppression of unpopular speech.  The principle of separation of powers has always been under pressure with the ebb and flow of one branch of government exercising or inhibiting the powers delegated to another.  
    There are other threats that undermine the inspired principles of the United States constitution.  The stature of the constitution is diminished by efforts to substitute current societal trends as the reason for its founding, instead of liberty and self-government.  The authority of the constitution is trivialized when candidates or officials ignore its principles.  The dignity and force of the constitution is reduced by those who refer to it like a loyalty test or a political slogan, instead of its lofty status as a source of authorization for and limits on government authority.  
    Our belief in divine inspiration gives Latter-day Saints a unique responsibility to uphold and defend the United States constitution and principles of constitutionalism wherever we live.  We should trust in the Lord and be positive about this nation's future.  What else are faithful Latter-day Saints to do? We must pray for the Lord to guide and bless all nations and their leaders.  This is part of our article of faith.  Being subject to presidents or rulers of course poses no obstacle to our opposing individual laws or policies.  It does require that we exercise our influence civilly and peacefully within the framework of our constitutions and applicable laws.  On contested issues, we should seek to moderate and unify.  
    There are other duties that are part of upholding the inspired constitution.  We should learn and advocate the inspired principles of the constitution.  We should seek out and support wise and good persons who will support those principles in their public actions.  We should be knowledgeable citizens who are active in making our influence felt in civic affairs.  
    In the United States and other democracies, political influence is exercised by running for office (which we encourage), by voting, by financial support, by membership and service in political parties, and by on-going communications to officials, parties, and candidates.  To function well, a democracy needs all of these, but a conscientious citizen does not need to provide all of them.  
    There are many political issues, and no party, platform, or individual candidate can satisfy all personal preferences.  Each citizen must therefore decide which issues are most important to him or her at any particular time.  Then, members should seek inspiration on how to exercise their influence according to their individual priorities.  This process will not be easy.  It may require changing party support or candidate choices, even from election to election.  Such independent actions will sometimes require voters to support candidates or political parties or platforms whose other positions they cannot approve.  That is one reason we encourage our members to refrain from judging one another in political matters.  
    We should never assert that a faithful Latter-day Saint cannot belong to a particular party or vote for a particular candidate.  We teach correct principles and leave our members to choose how to prioritize and apply those principles on the issues presented from time to time.  We also insist, and we ask our local leaders to insist, that political choices and affiliations not be the subject of teachings or advocacy in any of our church meetings.  The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will, of course, exercise its right to endorse or oppose specific legislative proposals that we believe will impact the free exercise of religion or the essential interests of church organizations.  
    I testify of the divinely inspired constitution of the United States and pray that we who recognize the divine being who inspired it will always uphold and defend its great principles.  
    In the name of Jesus Christ, amen. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Stargazer

[JustAnAustralian]

37 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

What, please, is an "srt"?

Srt is a subtitle/captioning format.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Metis_LDS said:

I am in the UK which has no written constitution, that is all right by me.  When people turn wicked paper will not protect you.  

I'm an American living in the UK, and you're right about the wickedness of people. But as unwritten as the UK constitution is, it still exists. And as President Oaks said, the unwritten constitution of the UK helped inspire the US constitution. I do note, however, that as much as the UK constitution is "unwritten", it is nevertheless found in written documents -- including Common Law and the stare decisis of previous decision in the various courts.

An interesting feature of the unwritten law is that I have seen English common law and some decisions of English courts used as authority for some decisions in US courts. In fact, you will find common law to be written into most US state codes (except Louisiana, which uses an evolved Roman civil law). The one most familiar to me, the Washington state code, states that the common law is the rule of decision in state courts (Extent to which common law prevails).

The Book of Mormon actually advocates for a constitution or form of government that entrusts power to the people. As King Mosiah wrote:

Therefore, if it were possible that you could have just men to be your kings, who would establish the laws of God, and judge this people according to his commandments, yea, if ye could have men for your kings who would do even as my father Benjamin did for this people—I say unto you, if this could always be the case then it would be expedient that ye should always have kings to rule over you. [Mosiah 29:13]

Now I say unto you, that because all men are not just it is not expedient that ye should have a king or kings to rule over you. (Mosiah 29:16]

Therefore, choose you by the voice of this people, judges, that ye may be judged according to the claws which have been given you by our fathers, which are correct, and which were given them by the hand of the Lord.
Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law — to do your business by the voice of the people. [Mosiah 29:25]

But Mosiah warned, as you indicated:

And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land. [Mosiah 29:27]

And indeed, that's exactly what happened, eventually:

For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted. [Helaman 5:2]

BUT, despite the possibility that the voice of the people might (or will, eventually) choose evil over good, this does not militate against the desirability of a constitution, either written or unwritten.

 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

20 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Srt is a subtitle/captioning format.

Okay, but how did you obtain the text?

[Chum]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

What, please, is an "srt"?

Subtitle file (subrip).

[Chum]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Okay, but how did you obtain the text?

I used https://www.yousubtitles.com/ to extract it from the Church's YT stream url  https://www.youtube[.]com/watch?v=glKPnRSXTkY

 

[Chum]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Since the talk still isn't available in text form, here it is after I've meddled with the formatting:

Nice work on that. I think that's beyond what notepad++ is capable of.

[Peacefully]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Again, it was Peacefully who first used the expression “American exceptionalism” in this thread. But when she obliquely applied that term to President Oaks’s general conference talk, do you really think she was accusing him of standing up for mobs and bigots? I doubt it, but I’ll let you take that up with her. 

You are correct, I was not implying that. I just felt it was a bit of a tone-deaf talk when we seemed to be celebrating our internationalism.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Peacefully

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Peacefully said:

You are correct, I was not implying that. I just felt it was a bit of a tone-deaf talk when we seemed to be celebrating our internationalism.

Thank you for making clear your intended meaning; the Nehor seemed a bit confused. 
 

I would suggest that President Oaks’s talk only seems “tone deaf” if one believes — wrongly, in my view — that we cannot appreciate — even love — other lands and cultures while at the same time believing what the Lord said in the revelations about having raised up “wise men” to establish the U.S. Constitution for the protection of “all flesh.”

Edited April 5, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Duncan]

9 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I wondered how non-US members felt about the talk, especially after the international morning session. It seemed like one minute we were trumpeting the world-wide Church and the next we were back to American exceptionalism. I was glad he brought it around to people voting their conscience. 

the chatter on FB seems to be it came out of left field like Elder Andersen's talk and "I hope our investigators want to keep investigating" but you're right he brought it back at the end

[Duncan]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Thank you for making clear your intended meaning; the Nehor seemed a bit confused. 
 

I would suggest that President Oaks’s talk only seems “tone deaf” if one believes — wrongly, in my view — that we cannot appreciate — even love — other lands and cultures while at the same time believing what the Lord said in the revelations about having raised up “wise men” to established the U.S. Constitution for the protection of “all flesh.”

do you think that was a timely talk on the day when we celebrate the Resurrection of Christ? Why not not celebrate how Christ was raised up? just a thought!

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

do you think that was a timely talk on the day when we celebrate the Resurrection of Christ? Why not not celebrate how Christ was raised up? just a thought!

I think anything that celebrates what the Lord has done for us — including the raising up of wise men to establish a document to safeguard our moral agency against tyranny — is an appropriate topic for Easter Sunday. So, yes. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, Duncan said:

the chatter on FB seems to be it came out of left field like Elder Andersen's talk and "I hope our investigators want to keep investigating" but you're right he brought it back at the end

On any given day, there’s a lot of foolish chatter on Facebook. 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

I am in the UK which has no written constitution, that is all right by me.  When people turn wicked paper will not protect you.  

We hope that written content might help hinder the majority from turning wicked in the first place. That’s why we have the scriptures. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Stargazer]

53 minutes ago, Chum said:

Nice work on that. I think that's beyond what notepad++ is capable of.

You use notepad++, too? Slick! I use notepad++ for quite a bit of reformatting of text, and even coding sometimes because it does good color markup. But it doesn't do some kinds of bulk search/replace functions, such as where tab or crlf characters are concerned (or, it does do this and I don't know how).

What I did was to fire up MS Word and used the case tool to convert all the text casing to "Sentence" case, then did a few bulk replaces (e.g. "united states" to "United States"), fixing titles and so on. Using Visual Studio I then wrote a Windows app in C# to first replace all crlfs with two spaces, then after manually placing crlfs in appropriate places, had the app place tabs after each crlf. 

As a retired computer programmer I find it fun to dust off old skills and make these little apps to do odd tasks.

[Duncan]

23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think anything that celebrates what the Lord has done for us — including the raising up of wise men to establish a document to safeguard our moral agency against tyranny — is an appropriate topic for Easter Sunday. So, yes. 

okay, next conference I want to hear a talk about how God raised up Nelson Mandela

[Peacefully]

31 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

On any given day, there’s a lot of foolish chatter on Facebook. 

Lots of chatter on Reddit’s faithful board. They dedicated a thread to it yesterday with almost 500 comments. They locked it before it got heated or off-topic which I think means it was getting heated and off-topic:)

Edited April 5, 2021 by Peacefully

[Duncan]

Just now, Duncan said:

okay, next conference I want to hear a talk about how God raised up Nelson Mandela or William Wallace, Elizabeth Fry would be nice

 

[Scott Lloyd]

28 minutes ago, Duncan said:

okay, next conference I want to hear a talk about how God raised up Nelson Mandela

It would be OK with me. I certainly wouldn’t be upset by it as you obviously are with President Oaks’s talk — and his talk has scriptural backing, with the words of Jesus Christ!

Edited April 5, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Lots of chatter on Reddit’s faithful board. They dedicated a thread to it yesterday with almost 500 comments. They locked it before it got heated or off-topic which I think means it was getting heated and off-topic:)

I don’t frequent Reddit, so I haven’t seen what you’re referring to. But if people are on there publicly disparaging the words of an apostle and member of the First Presidency, I question the descriptor “faithful”. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Theosis]

Amazing to me an apostle of the Jesus Christ, and a spiritual leader in the community, didn't mention Jesus Christ once in his conference talk. On Easter. This was an "all about me" talk by Oaks, a lesson in bravado and self indulgence by a man. Sad to see the Savior of the world get overshadowed on an important remembrance day.  

[Chum]

26 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I use notepad++ for quite a bit of reformatting of text, and even coding sometimes because it does good color markup. But it doesn't do some kinds of bulk search/replace functions, such as where tab or crlf characters are concerned

It usually can. \t for tab \r\n for linefeed - search set for extended.

You ever do any Church related coding projects? We could start a thread.

[teddyaware]

36 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think anything that celebrates what the Lord has done for us — including the raising up of wise men to establish a document to safeguard our moral agency against tyranny — is an appropriate topic for Easter Sunday. So, yes. 

In consideration of the fact that it’s the atoning sacrifice of our Savior that enables us to have agency and be free, I would say the preservation of our divinely inspired Constitution is indeed an appropriate subject for an Easter Sunday address, especially in light of the fact that our God given rights are being threatened as never before. It’s somewhat akin to asking if it was appropriate for Brigham Young to cancel General Conference so the focus of the Church could be centered on saving the stranded handcart pioneers. 

[Duncan]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It would be OK with me. I certainly wouldn’t be upset by it as you obviously are with President Oaks’s talk — and his talk has scriptural backing! 

oh, I am sure someone could figure out how to put all those people in the scriptures too! if you can see Santa Claus in Zechariah 2:6 then Nelson Mandela would be a snap!

"Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD"