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Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 3


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2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I dislike how DezNat adherents seem to freely conflate Latter-day Saint doctrine/belief with certain political affiliations and positions, as if our beliefs and certain political platforms are indistinguishable from each other. 

I fully agree.

I've been a casual observer of DezNat for a year or so.  Maybe a bit longer.  And my impression is that the ideas being expressed are becoming more and more radical. And quite frankly, very fascistic - as in the actual definition of fascism and not the pop-definition which conflates the word with dictatorship. For a long time, I just saw them as being edgy to counter Mormon progressive histrionics on Twitter.  But no longer.  

Someone I know many years ago is very active on Twitter.  I just happened across his account one day and was appalled at the openly anti-semitic, racist, and fascistic things he was promoting.  Since the election last year, he's been attaching these ideas to DezNat.  He served a mission to a country where he know openly mocks and denigrates their people.  I really just don't get it.  I hope that he steps away from the internet for a while, takes a breath, and softens his heart.   

Funny enough, I've wondered if he fell victim to what @juliann brought up in her thread about Elder Ballard.  He's a smart, well-educated guy who just never got the girl.  And so is it any surprise that he is parroting what "incels" on 4chan repeat ad nauseam?  Who knows.  But either way, I hope he has an Alma the Younger experience to purge the obvious anger and hate he carries.

Edited by Ipod Touch
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3 hours ago, smac97 said:

We have previously had a few discussions about DezNat:

September 2019: DezNat (Deseret Nation) = White Nationalism?

December 2020: DezNat (Deseret Nation) = White Nationalism? - Part 2

November 2020: Fair Mormon's new YouTube branding strategy

Here's a Trib opinion piece by Russell Stevenson (author of “For the Cause of Righteousness: A Global History of Blacks and Mormonism”) that addresses DezNat again: #DezNat philosophy is damaging to the LDS Church

I am also unapologetically Latter-day Saint.  Very happy to be so, in fact.  I also value the idea of taking seriously and following prophetic counsel and guidance.  And yet I don't like #DezNat, as a concept or in practice.  It is, to me, increasingly troubling and disturbing. 

I am very much opposed to the violence-related imagery/rhetoric. 

I dislike how DezNat adherents seem to freely conflate Latter-day Saint doctrine/belief with certain political affiliations and positions, as if our beliefs and certain political platforms are indistinguishable from each other. 

And I am concerned about DezNat's necessarily decentralized messaging and ideology.  There is no organization, no heirarchy, no vetting, no coherent message.  The hashtag and the overall concept are therefore apparently susceptible to being (mis)used to associate the Church and its members with things that are incompatible with the Restored Gospel, such as racist rhetoric.  Bro. Bellum says that "our response is simple -- we follow the prophet."  I'm not sure the things are that simple, as such a resposne doesn't address, for example, the violent imagery associated with DezNat, nor the apparent occasional racism.

Yeah, this stuff is bad.  However, Stevensen asserts, but does not seem to demonstrate, that these awful expressions "are not outliers."  I'm curious if that is the case.  The above montage of images sure looks bad.

Good points, and ones that jibe with my observations made in December:

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I find it interesting and somewhat perplexing that it’s now painfully obvious our nation is in the grip of modern-day Gadianton robbers who are in the process of dragging the United States of America down into the prophesied “post day of the Gentiles” godless tyranny , and that instead of focusing on this most devastating emergency our attention is diverted to a relatively small group of patriotic, Ezra Taft Benson loving members of the Church who think General Moroni was a cool guy. This amounts to a modern Latter-Day Saint version of fiddling while Rome burns. 

In the last General Conference address of his life, President Benson most solemnly warned the Church that the worldwide secret combination of the last days, which was prophesied by Moroni in Ether chapter 8, that was going to be set up by the devil to destroy the freedom of every nation on earth was, even then (October of 1988), in the process of gaining control over America and the entire world. And very recently President Nelson warned the Church that we are now in the last scenes of.the unfolding drama.of the last days as the Second Coming of the Lord draws near. But rather than heeding Moroni and awakening “to a sense of our awful situation” before this satanic secret combination gets above us, we’re fixing our attention on members of the Church who actually have awakened to the extreme dangers that are happening all around us and then condemning them as the enemy.

I would be much more receptive to threads like this one if there were a more balanced awareness of what’s going on around us and if, at very least, an equal focus was being placed on this secret combination whose goal it is to destroy everything that’s good and holy, rather than focus on a few overzealous and/or misguided members who take seriously the prophecy that the elders of Israel are going to rise up and save the Constitution of the United States from utter destruction as it dangles precariously over the edge of destruction. But do continue fiddling as I’m confident this warning will largely be mocked, ridiculed and fall on deaf ears.

A final thought: The day is going to come when the vast majority of the world’s people are going to wonder how in the world they could have been so easily distracted and deceived when the unpleasant truth was right in front of their eyes. But when that day comes these can at least take some measure of solace in the realization that it was prophesied nearly entire population of the world was going to end up be deceived, with the exception of a small remnant who would possess the spirit of revelation in sufficient measure to safely be able to navigate through the treacherous, beguiling waters of the last days.

A joyous Easter to all!

 

Edited by teddyaware
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1 minute ago, teddyaware said:

I would be much more receptive to threads like this one if there were a more balanced awareness of what’s going on around us and if, at very least, an equal focus was being placed on this secret combination whose goal it is to destroy everything that’s good and holy, than on a a few overzealous and/or misguided members who take seriously the prophecy that the elders of Israel are going to rise up and save the Constitution of the United States from utter destruction as it dangles precariously over the edge of destruction. But do continue fiddling as I’m confident this warning will be largely mocked and ridiculed and fall on deaf ears.

I remember when Communism was going to do this.

Same story, different players.

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3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I don't think so.  I can express concern about both matters.

 And so on.

These are not appropriates words and imagery.  This is disturbing stuff.

I see no "rather than."  I can do "in addition to."

Thanks,

-Smac

I dunno, some of us are weak-willed scum. 

Seriously, though, it's not surprising that some black-and-white thinkers tend to lump anyone they disagree with into some nebulous horde of "modern-day Gadianton robbers." I've seen members of the church accuse both US political parties of being Gadiantons while insisting their party is the one supported by Jesus and the prophets. Life simply doesn't fall into such neatly defined categories, and human beings (even large groups of them) and their ideologies are complicated and resist easy categorization. I had a mission companion who later served as district president, and he was a proud member of the Revolutionary Workers' Party. Is he a Gadianton? Are the folks who stormed the Capitol? I suppose it all depends on whom you listen to.

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Seriously, the idea that understanding a threat precisely somehow constitutes righteousness is a really warped version of Gnosticism.

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You guys just don't get it.

If we learn anything from the gospel of Jesus Christ, it is the need to have large stock piles of food and ammunition on hand so we can keep our starving neighbors at bay while we sactimoniously remind them of their failure to listen to our warnings, cause that's what Christ would do.

Edited by CA Steve
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1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

I find it interesting and somewhat perplexing that it’s now painfully obvious our nation is in the grip of modern-day Gadianton robbers who are in the process of dragging the United States of America down into the prophesied “post day of the Gentiles” godless tyranny , and that instead of focusing on this most devastating emergency our attention is diverted to a relatively small group of patriotic, Ezra Taft Benson loving members of the Church who think General Moroni was a cool guy. This amounts to a modern Latter-Day Saint version of fiddling while Rome burns. 

In the last General Conference address of his life, President Benson most solemnly warned the Church that the worldwide secret combination of the last days, which was prophesied by Moroni in Ether chapter 8, that was going to be set up by the devil to destroy the freedom of every nation on earth was, even then (October of 1988), in the process of gaining control over America and the entire world. And very recently President Nelson warned the Church that we are now in the last scenes of.the unfolding drama.of the last days as the Second Coming of the Lord draws near. But rather than heeding Moroni and awakening “to a sense of our awful situation” before this satanic secret combination gets above us, we’re fixing our attention on members of the Church who actually have awakened to the extreme dangers that are happening all around us and then condemning them as the enemy.

I would be much more receptive to threads like this one if there were a more balanced awareness of what’s going on around us and if, at very least, an equal focus was being placed on this secret combination whose goal it is to destroy everything that’s good and holy, rather than focus on a few overzealous and/or misguided members who take seriously the prophecy that the elders of Israel are going to rise up and save the Constitution of the United States from utter destruction as it dangles precariously over the edge of destruction. But do continue fiddling as I’m confident this warning will largely be mocked, ridiculed and fall on deaf ears.

A final thought: The day is going to come when the vast majority of the world’s people are going to wonder how in the world they could have been so easily distracted and deceived when the unpleasant truth was right in front of their eyes. But when that day comes these can at least take some measure of solace in the realization that it was prophesied nearly entire population of the world was going to end up be deceived, with the exception of a small remnant who would possess the spirit of revelation in sufficient measure to safely be able to navigate through the treacherous, beguiling waters of the last days.

A joyous Easter to all!

 

Ask yourself - Which is actually your primarily religion?  U.S. "conservatism" and "patriotism"?  Or, the gospel as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  You are trying to bend one to fit the other, and I don't think you are even remotely self-aware about this.

Edited by ttribe
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1 minute ago, CA Steve said:

You guys just don't get it.

If we learn anything from the gospel of Jesus Christ, it is the need to have large stock piles of food and ammunition on hand so we can keep our starving neighbors at bay while we sactimoniously remind them of their failure to listen to our warnings, cause that's what Christ would do.

The sarcasm is strong in this one. Again, I’m suspecting it’s a product of environment. 

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3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

The sarcasm is strong in this one. Again, I’m suspecting it’s a product of environment. 

My parents were great friends with many of our neighbors. With a family of 9 people and my dad the only one working, money was scarce and yet my parents maintained what they thought was a year supply of food for all of the family. I used to ask mom and dad if they would also feed the neighbors when they ran out of food and where they would draw the line on who got fed and who didn't? Stockpiling food is a great idea  as long as your willing to watch others go without, otherwise it is pretty pointless. (Well the real problem would have been potable water. My parent's year supply would have been pretty useless in a real emergency since they would not have had access to the water needed to cook it.)

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18 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

My parents were great friends with many of our neighbors. With a family of 9 people and my dad the only one working, money was scarce and yet my parents maintained what they thought was a year supply of food for all of the family. I used to ask mom and dad if they would also feed the neighbors when they ran out of food and where they would draw the line on who got fed and who didn't? Stockpiling food is a great idea  as long as your willing to watch others go without, otherwise it is pretty pointless. (Well the real problem would have been potable water. My parent's year supply would have been pretty useless in a real emergency since they would not have had access to the water needed to cook it.)

My folks went through a brief preparedness thing back in the seventies. A couple of years ago I helped them clean out the garage, and those old cans of dehydrated stuff and wheat were still there. 

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3 minutes ago, juliann said:

I find the sole emphasis on survival mystifying. What difference does it make whether you are alive or dead at a Second Coming? Seems like it would be a lot more pleasant being dead....    

I misread that to say that some people are more pleasant being dead. 😂

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39 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

My parents were great friends with many of our neighbors. With a family of 9 people and my dad the only one working, money was scarce and yet my parents maintained what they thought was a year supply of food for all of the family. I used to ask mom and dad if they would also feed the neighbors when they ran out of food and where they would draw the line on who got fed and who didn't? Stockpiling food is a great idea  as long as your willing to watch others go without, otherwise it is pretty pointless. (Well the real problem would have been potable water. My parent's year supply would have been pretty useless in a real emergency since they would not have had access to the water needed to cook it.)

In an emergency hitting a lot of people I plan to share my food even if that means my year's supply lasts a week. Then I plan to starve to death or hope the mashed potato supplies and the water last like that of the widow in Elijah's story. Or God can send manna again. Always wondered what that tasted like.

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19 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I misread that to say that some people are more pleasant being dead. 😂

Also a true statement.

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23 minutes ago, juliann said:

I find the sole emphasis on survival mystifying. What difference does it make whether you are alive or dead at a Second Coming? Seems like it would be a lot more pleasant being dead....    

“In ‘Possible Worlds’ Professor Haldane pictured a future in which Man, foreseeing that Earth would soon be uninhabitable, adapted himself for migration to Venus by drastically modifying his physiology and abandoning justice, pity and happiness. The desire here is for mere survival. Now I care far more how humanity lives than how long. Progress, for me, means increasing goodness and happiness of individual lives. For the species, as for each man, mere longevity seems to me a contemptible ideal.” - C.S. Lewis

Better to die good than live on as monsters.

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1 hour ago, juliann said:

I find the sole emphasis on survival mystifying. What difference does it make whether you are alive or dead at a Second Coming? Seems like it would be a lot more pleasant being dead....    

That answer is easy. Someone has to be alive to spend the 100+ billion the church has.

🤑

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5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Frankly SMAC it is refreshing to see pushback against DezNat from LDS members. FYI there is also currently a wave of exmo pushback against New Name Noah's abusive behaviour.

I appreciate both. It helps make the larger community better. Thanks.

I like that too, and I like a happy medium, no far right or far left.

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6 hours ago, juliann said:

I find the sole emphasis on survival mystifying. What difference does it make whether you are alive or dead at a Second Coming? Seems like it would be a lot more pleasant being dead....    

My thoughts exactly. 

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5 hours ago, CA Steve said:

That answer is easy. Someone has to be alive to spend the 100+ billion the church has.

🤑

At that point currency will likely be worthless.

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6 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

My folks went through a brief preparedness thing back in the seventies. A couple of years ago I helped them clean out the garage, and those old cans of dehydrated stuff and wheat were still there. 

Additionally most national emergencies/disasters that we have seen in the U.S. (fires, floods, mud slides, earthquakes, large storms, etc.) have not been kind to large stored food supplies. Stores of food don't survive well in hurricanes like Sandy and Katrina, or the fires, mud slides and earthquakes of California. Or the tornados we have seen in Texas and Tennessee of late. 

 Even in economic hard times I would rather have the money I would have spent on a large food supply in the bank so that I could pay my rent/mortgage.  Otherwise I might be pushing a wagon loaded with my food storage down the road looking for a place to sleep.

With that said, I do believe in being prepared, and I do keep a 72 hours get the beep out of Dodge bag handy.

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