Deznat (deseret nation) = White nationalism? - Part 3

[Vellichor]

I am late to this conversation, but I have to say I have followed both Hank Smith and Calvin Burke for a while. Hank Smith seems to be a good-hearted person who let his emotions get the better of him in this one instance, after Calvin "apologized" for Hank's statements proclaiming Hank's belief in Joseph Smith's prophetic role. Calvin, on the other hand, has a long history of calling out Church leaders and criticizing and misrepresenting both Church doctrine and Church history. He has also lied about his own parents (who took him to court over it and provided evidence his accusations were false) and about others (for example, he accused Kwaku El of reporting him to the BYU Honor Code office for being gay, which is ridiculous). After Hank called him Korihor and then apologized, Calvin posted his Venmo account so people could donate to help him in his supposed distress.

Calvin supposedly has the most-followed Twitter account of any BYU student, so he has a lot of influence. 

Hank shouldn't have called Calvin "Korihor," but he seemed to do everything he could to address the situation appropriately. He deserves some grace.

[Scott Lloyd]

On 4/27/2021 at 8:53 PM, pogi said:

A retraction of what one said could also constitute a change of heart in how one said something, and thereby deleting those comments.   I have done that plenty of times on these forums, where I have retracted a comment after remorse for the manner in which I said something while still holding to the idea of what I said.  There can be various reasons as to why one retracts what they said, we shouldn’t assume there can be only one.

I hope you can find it in you to accept that you misread my intentions and can move on now.

I’m moving on, but I stand by what I said about the reposting of the meme. That was uncalled for,  especially if HS had already given his apologies, thereby signaling that he is not in league with the DezNat people. 
 

(Incidentally, the reason I’m rejoining this thread so late is that the website was inexplicably inaccessible to me over several days.)

Edited May 5, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[pogi]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m moving on...

Are you?  Just had to get in that one last little dig?  Couldn’t just let it go?  If you are going to continue to attack me for this, then I will continue to defend myself until you actually “move on”.    Keep it up.  I will continue responding to your attacks to see how long it takes you to actually move on.

You are free to ignore my explanation of intention and ignore the pre and post context if you want and continue to judge my post unfairly.  I feel the post effectively served its purpose of dismissing the idea that HS was innocent and being unfairly attacked.  Transparency in how his posts were received is the honest thing to do.   While not ignoring or glossing over his offenses, I feel that I have thoroughly demonstrated that I am standing up for HS.  You are taking the meme out of context and unfairly imputing I’ll intention upon myself.

I am certain that re-posting the meme on here, in context of the rest of my posts, has not caused the harm that you seem to think it has.   If anything, it is a reminder to us all that our online activity has consequences and influence on others for better or worse.  

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are you?  Just had to get in that one last little dig?  Couldn’t just let it go?  If you are going to continue to attack me for this, then I will continue to defend myself until you actually “move on”.    Keep it up.  I will continue responding to your attacks to see how long it takes you to actually move on.

You are free to ignore my explanation of intention and ignore the pre and post context if you want and continue to judge my post unfairly.  I feel the post effectively served its purpose of dismissing the idea that HS was innocent and being unfairly attacked.  Transparency in how his posts were received is the honest thing to do.   While not ignoring or glossing over his offenses, I feel that I have thoroughly demonstrated that I am standing up for HS.  You are taking the meme out of context and unfairly imputing I’ll intention upon myself.

I am certain that re-posting the meme on here, in context of the rest of my posts, has not caused the harm that you seem to think it has.   If anything, it is a reminder to us all that our online activity has consequences and influence on others for better or worse.  

If it were me, Scott would move on because he could care less about my comments. I think he respects you and it's hard for him to see someone mostly like-minded not retract something, I'm guessing. 

[Teancum]

On 4/2/2021 at 4:00 PM, teddyaware said:

I find it interesting and somewhat perplexing that it’s now painfully obvious our nation is in the grip of modern-day Gadianton robbers who are in the process of dragging the United States of America down into the prophesied “post day of the Gentiles” godless tyranny , and that instead of focusing on this most devastating emergency our attention is diverted to a relatively small group of patriotic, Ezra Taft Benson loving members of the Church who think General Moroni was a cool guy. This amounts to a modern Latter-Day Saint version of fiddling while Rome burns. 

In the last General Conference address of his life, President Benson most solemnly warned the Church that the worldwide secret combination of the last days, which was prophesied by Moroni in Ether chapter 8, that was going to be set up by the devil to destroy the freedom of every nation on earth was, even then (October of 1988), in the process of gaining control over America and the entire world. And very recently President Nelson warned the Church that we are now in the last scenes of.the unfolding drama.of the last days as the Second Coming of the Lord draws near. But rather than heeding Moroni and awakening “to a sense of our awful situation” before this satanic secret combination gets above us, we’re fixing our attention on members of the Church who actually have awakened to the extreme dangers that are happening all around us and then condemning them as the enemy.

I would be much more receptive to threads like this one if there were a more balanced awareness of what’s going on around us and if, at very least, an equal focus was being placed on this secret combination whose goal it is to destroy everything that’s good and holy, rather than focus on a few overzealous and/or misguided members who take seriously the prophecy that the elders of Israel are going to rise up and save the Constitution of the United States from utter destruction as it dangles precariously over the edge of destruction. But do continue fiddling as I’m confident this warning will largely be mocked, ridiculed and fall on deaf ears.

A final thought: The day is going to come when the vast majority of the world’s people are going to wonder how in the world they could have been so easily distracted and deceived when the unpleasant truth was right in front of their eyes. But when that day comes these can at least take some measure of solace in the realization that it was prophesied nearly entire population of the world was going to end up be deceived, with the exception of a small remnant who would possess the spirit of revelation in sufficient measure to safely be able to navigate through the treacherous, beguiling waters of the last days.

A joyous Easter to all!

 

Ah true to form.  So do you support radical positions like those of this Deznat group or whatever they are?  

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

If it were me, Scott would move on because he could care less about my comments. I think he respects you and it's hard for him to see someone mostly like-minded not retract something, I'm guessing. 

I already said I’m moving on. I only wanted to make it clear that I stand by previous comments. I’m as entitled to do that as he is entitled to stand by his. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Teancum]

On 4/26/2021 at 2:27 PM, teddyaware said:

The only problem is that the so-called “moderate” political center has been moving further and further left for over 100 years until today’s moderates are like the socialists of the Eugene Debs era. Give it another twenty years and the moderates will be like Eurocommunists, while those on the far left will be like hardcore Maoists. Oh wait! Those on today’s far left are already like hardcore Maoists. Forget what I said...

Jesus would be a social democrat today. Religious and political Conservatives would likely reject him.

[Calm]

Just now, Teancum said:

Jesus would be a social democrat today. Religious and political Conservatives would likely reject him.

I think Jesus would be an independent and unlikely to identify with any party as there would likely be something in any party’s platform he would not support.  

[smac97]

Could we veer away from the politics?  

Thanks,

-Smac

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Could we veer away from the politics?  

Thanks,

-Smac

Spoilsport.

[jkwilliams]

I couldn’t make a blanket statement about these folks, but I have seen too many #DezNat social media posts that have used White Supremacist and Nazi imagery and content. At the very least, it makes me not want to bother with them. 

[Teancum]

On 4/26/2021 at 6:55 PM, Scott Lloyd said:

There will be no divine truth to the effect that Joseph Smith was a false prophet or that he lied about his divine calling. 

You are going to be very disappointed someday.....

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You are going to be very disappointed someday.....

The probability is that most humans are in for disappointment when they die. 

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

The probability is that most humans are in for disappointment when they die. 

Is it more probable than for there to be life after death in your view?  (Serious question)
 

If there is no life, there is no disappointment. 

Edited May 5, 2021 by Calm

[teddyaware]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

Jesus would be a social democrat today. Religious and political Conservatives would likely reject him.

It’s hard to imagine that the same Being who inspired the Constitution of the United States, a system of strictly limited government that enthrones God given freedom and liberty, personal autonomy and responsibility, and maximizes the nobility of hard work and individual initiative, would simultaneously support a godless, tyrannical system of all powerful “government” that enslaves the sons and daughters of God and and relegates them to the status of subservient and dispensable wards of the state. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by teddyaware

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Is it more probable than for there to be life after death in your view?  (Serious question)
 

If there is no life, there is no disappointment. 

I was taking it as given that there is an afterlife. If so, the vast majority of humans will have lived the “wrong” religion. If there is no afterlife, then, obviously a person who doesn’t exist can’t be disappointed. 

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I was taking it as given that there is an afterlife. If so, the vast majority of humans will have lived the “wrong” religion. If there is no afterlife, then, obviously a person who doesn’t exist can’t be disappointed. 

But would they be disappointed if the afterlife is even better than they thought, even if wrong?

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

But would they be disappointed if the afterlife is even better than they thought, even if wrong?

I think I would be disappointed at least briefly upon learning that I had embraced false beliefs my whole life. Of course, that’s what a lot of people expect for me anyway. 

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I was taking it as given that there is an afterlife. If so, the vast majority of humans will have lived the “wrong” religion. If there is no afterlife, then, obviously a person who doesn’t exist can’t be disappointed. 

But would they be disappointed if the afterlife is even better than they thought, even if wrong?

My view is if there is any possibility of change, which seems likely if there is an afterlife that is not just recycling mortal existence (reincarnation) or we are somehow frozen perpetually yet aware, an afterlife where we retain knowledge from our previous state...a necessity for disappointment...the likelihood is if there is someone powerful enough to rule in such an existence, they must be highly advanced, which implies to me cooperation and looking out for others to better themselves as well as oneself....you can go farther by working with others than on your own basically.  Someone intelligent will eventually recognize this and act on it if able to act at all.  This would then suggest in order to maximize benefit for themselves, the rulers would be maximizing benefits for all.

Oops...I didn’t remember hitting send right as my iPad lost its last moment of charge...

Edited May 6, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I think I would be disappointed at least briefly upon learning that I had embraced false beliefs my whole life. Of course, that’s what a lot of people expect for me anyway. 

You wouldn’t be disappointed about the afterlife then, but about your mortal life, correct?  I was reading your original comment as disappointment in what was to come, not what had been.

I don’t really see that as different from the here and now.  When we look back on our lives, is there anyone who is not disappointed in at least some fashion?

Edited May 6, 2021 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

But would they be disappointed if the afterlife is even better than they thought, even if wrong?

My view is if there is any possibility of change, which seems likely if there is an afterlife that is not just recycling mortal existence (reincarnation) or we are somehow frozen perpetually yet aware, an afterlife where we retain knowledge from our previous state...a necessity for disappointment...the likelihood is if there is someone powerful enough to rule in such an existence, they must be highly advanced, which implies to me cooperation and looking out for others to better themselves as well as oneself....you can go farther by working with others than on your own basically.  This would then suggest in order to maximize benefit for themselves, the rulers would be maximizing benefits for all.

If there is an afterlife, I’m not sure we can count on it conforming to our expectations. 

I just kind of had in mind an early American preacher who had devoted himself to a rather vigorous and strict interpretation of Christian life and doctrine. In his death bed he reaffirmed his belief in exactly what the afterlife would be. I’d imagine he would be slightly disappointed to be in the spirit world. I dunno. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

You wouldn’t be disappointed about the afterlife then, but about your mortal life, correct?  I was reading your original comment as disappointment in what was to come, not what had been.

I suppose you’re right. 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

just kind of had in mind an early American preacher who had devoted himself to a rather vigorous and strict interpretation of Christian life and doctrine. In his death bed he reaffirmed his belief in exactly what the afterlife would be. I’d imagine he would be slightly disappointed to be in the spirit world. I dunno. 

I have no doubt there will be some that care more for their pride, for being right than for what the future holds.  But if the future is bright and glorious, I think most won’t care anymore than if they expected a nice sweater and sock set for Christmas and instead got a whole new wardrobe of their dreams...because bright and glorious at infinity will likely be greater than the limited view of bright and glorious a mortal can imagine.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

I have no doubt there will be some that care more for their pride, for being right than for what the future holds.  But if the future is bright and glorious, I think most won’t care anymore than if they expected a nice sweater and sock set for Christmas and instead got a whole new wardrobe of their dreams.

Well, I suppose we will know for certain someday. Or we’ll just die. 

Many church members have said to me, “What will you tell the Lord when He asks you why you walked away from the true church?” That we’ll have to find out. I sometimes imagine those same people lining up to say “I told you so.” But then I don’t think many people I know would. 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have no doubt there will be some that care more for their pride, for being right than for what the future holds.  But if the future is bright and glorious, I think most won’t care anymore than if they expected a nice sweater and sock set for Christmas and instead got a whole new wardrobe of their dreams.

I could be wrong, but I presume that the scriptural concept that “every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord” figuratively means that ultimately, everyone will embrace everything that is true. That would entail not harboring residual affection or stubborn dogmatism for false beliefs one held in mortality.