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Updates to general handbook


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3 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

Do you have any evidence to support this belief?

Just personal observation and word-of-mouth information. 

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10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Just personal observation and word-of-mouth information. 

I've always found this to be a very interesting/funny part of LDS Church culture.  Joseph Smith said that he taught correct principles and let the people govern themselves.   But it seems that sometimes Members are looking for some very specific guidance. And as someone who hasn't been a member for many years now, it is hard to imagine a grown adult man, looking to other grown adult men to decide if he should get snipped or not.  

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Well, I'm just some guy, you know! 😄 I've known plenty of people who are well-armed. We're pretty normal.  In some senses, anyway.

Deer hunting rifles are great for hunting deer, but not so good for home defense. I suggest a shotgun. Even Joe Biden agrees with me:

I think this is not the place to get into a big discussion about this subject, so I'll say no more.

 

 

Understand!

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35 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That may be the dumbest thing I've read today. No offense ;)

 

None taken! :D 

But what you wrote was pretty dumb, too. 

Fists can kill people. That's what I was getting at.

When I was a child I was afraid of firearms. When I grew up, and after US Army basic and advanced infantry training, I realized that there is no such thing as a dangerous weapon. What is most important is intent. With no evil intent, there is no danger at all.  With evil intent, because anything can be used as a weapon, the danger is intense. Here in the UK, every time some thug uses some innocuous tool as a weapon, the politicians propose banning or regulating that tool. Two years or so ago, some idiot parliamentarian wanted to introduce a law outlawing the sale of any knife with a sharp point, to prevent stabbings.

 

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1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

None taken! :D 

But what you wrote was pretty dumb, too. 

Fists can kill people. That's what I was getting at.

When I was a child I was afraid of firearms. When I grew up, and after US Army basic and advanced infantry training, I realized that there is no such thing as a dangerous weapon. What is most important is intent. With no evil intent, there is no danger at all.  With evil intent, because anything can be used as a weapon, the danger is intense. Here in the UK, every time some thug uses some innocuous tool as a weapon, the politicians propose banning or regulating that tool. Two years or so ago, some idiot parliamentarian wanted to introduce a law outlawing the sale of any knife with a sharp point, to prevent stabbings.

 

Yes, fists can kill people, but that isn't their primary purpose. Ever play Ro-Sham-Bo?  :) 

I own a rifle and while I wouldn't say I'm afraid of guns I am very cautious. But I have to disagree on the idea that there is no such thing as a dangerous weapon. Most things can be used as a weapon in the wrong hands; a letter opener, a baseball bat, vehicle etc. But massive casualty weapons are something to be concerned about precisely because it is impossible to control for the person behind it and the amount of damage they are designed to inflict. But I won't convince you and you won't convince me so no point in getting into a gun debate.  

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3 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

Wait they have assault riffles or do they have guns that just look scary?  Its pretty rare for people to have real assault riffles?

 

All kids should be taught about guns. That they are not toys, what they really do.   My kids know not to touch a gun unless dad or mom is there.  

He listed AR 15, AK 47, MM's and shotguns...

So maybe I misunderstand what assault weapons are.

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49 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Didn't it used to be in Handbook 1 that only leaders had access to, or was it in handbook 2 all along.  Not that many people would have a reason to read handbook two if they weren't in a leadership position.

I have a copy of both Handbook 1 and 2 from 2010, and surgical sterilization is in both of them. On the other hand, Handbook 2 wasn't exactly handed out like penny candy, either. Just bishoprics and stake presidencies had Handbook 1, but Handbook 2 was only for members of ward and stake councils.

I'm glad the combined Handbook is now generally available. It was kind of a bad idea to keep it so confidential, IMHO. If nothing else, the confidentiality tended to make wanting to see it even stronger. Kind of like the Streisand Effect.

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Yay - a prepper/gun thread!  

I'm a halfway-zealous prepper, and a 3/4's-of-the-way zealous 2nd amendment enthusiast.   To give you a taste: I was reviewing my family's pandemic plans in October of 2019, and I brought our pandemic stuff up from the basement in February 2020.  And I'm about to drive across 2 states and attend a four day defensive handgun training class, out in the middle of the Nevada desert, with 600-1000 other gun nuts like me, each one of us more armed than the last.  I've safely and legally carried concealed in five states, and taken my firearm with me on commercial airline flights so often, the extra hoops to jump through have become a boring exercise. 

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38.8.16   Extreme Preparation or Survivalism

The Church encourages self-reliance. Members are encouraged to be spiritually and physically prepared for life’s challenges. See 22.1. However, Church leaders have counseled against extreme or excessive preparation for possible catastrophic events. Such efforts are sometimes called survivalism. Efforts to prepare should be motivated by faith, not fear. Church leaders have counseled members not to go into debt to establish food storage. Instead, members should establish a home storage supply and a financial reserve over time. See 22.1.4 and “Food Storage” (Gospel Topics, topics.ChurchofJesusChrist.org).

I welcome the new beefed up language.  I've been preaching against fear for at least two decades now - usually preaching at people concerned about me and my zealous buddies.  I probably know 100 or more serious-borderline-extreme prepper-type folks.  Most of 'em are mostly normal.   Many of them were involved with a certain "Another Voice of Warning" website, but the longer they stayed, the more they realized the people there are unhinged and deluded.  A few are what I'd consider, well, tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy-everywhere-seeing nutters.  But I'm far more worried about a local family in my ward who went in 2020 and blew a thousand bucks on guns they don't know how to shoot, because the news gave them anxiety.  

"Extreme or excessive preparation for possible catastrophic events" - I can hang with that.  Glad to hear the handbook doesn't expect the nation to fail, global economic collapse, nuclear war, or any of the other stuff I enjoy thinking about.  

As to how plain old armed America is - here's a fun story: About a dozen years ago in my ward, one of the sisters was asking around to find other sisters who might want to get their concealed carry permits.  She couldn't find any takers - all the other sisters already had their permits.

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

They're still designed for the purpose of killing people, right?

Still scary ;) 

Nope. Hunting, target shooting, getting rid of pests that want to harm your stock.  People are scary, not guns.  A gun just sitting there won't jump up and starting shooting people. Its the people and it will always be the people.

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51 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes, fists can kill people, but that isn't their primary purpose. Ever play Ro-Sham-Bo?  :) 

Never heard of it.

Does it really matter what its primary purpose is? I'd say it's more important how it's used.

Are swords of particular scariness because they were designed to kill people? They use the exact same principle of action that kitchen knives use.

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I own a rifle and while I wouldn't say I'm afraid of guns I am very cautious.

As well you should be.

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But I have to disagree on the idea that there is no such thing as a dangerous weapon. Most things can be used as a weapon in the wrong hands; a letter opener, a baseball bat, vehicle etc. But massive casualty weapons are something to be concerned about precisely because it is impossible to control for the person behind it and the amount of damage they are designed to inflict. But I won't convince you and you won't convince me so no point in getting into a gun debate.  

What you say in bolded, I enhance by saying that the reason why there is no such thing as a dangerous weapon is because there are only dangerous people. What is called a dangerous weapon will stay where it is put until picked up by a person, or otherwise actively employed by a person. Even a wall can be used as a weapon. Even the ground beneath your feet can be used as a weapon. And just because you're right when you say it is impossible to control for the person, does not make it practical to outlaw everything that can harm others if used with evil intent.

There was a massive casualty weapon employed at the Boston Marathon a few years ago. It was a pressure cooker or two filled with explosives. As Breaking Bad demonstrated, the very chemistry of our planet can be employed to produce dangerous materials. I know how to make black powder. I know how to make thermite. Charcoal, sulphur and nitre are common materials, as is iron oxide and powdered aluminum. All are readily obtained. None can be outlawed or much regulated. But without intent they sit there, inert and innocuous. Until a person with evil intent decides to employ them in an evil way.

And I don't want to debate guns in any case. As you say, it's pointless when minds are made up.  But ultimately the only safety lies in teaching people correct principles, and well enough that they endeavor to follow them. Something we won't achieve, I'm afraid, until the Millenium. This is the reason why I believe law abiding people should be permitted to be armed at least as well as outlaws, so that they need not be prey for the outlaws.

 

 

Edited by Stargazer
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29 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

He listed AR 15, AK 47, MM's and shotguns...

So maybe I misunderstand what assault weapons are.

I found this online, maybe it'll help

zOwn8VyxqsA7lFBVFWUFxy8zn1VbXDLC9UYm57w-ZUo.jpg.7c6bd97370f409520780e1baa66e289e.jpg

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28 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

He listed AR 15, AK 47, MM's and shotguns...

So maybe I misunderstand what assault weapons are.

What is an "MM"?

"Assault weapon": a couple of words, tossed around like a salad, dressed with half-truths and outright lies by the news media. Those guys use the term to mean anything scary that shoots bullets.

See the post I made earlier to bluebell (on previous page I think). "Assault rifle" has a particular definition according to the US Army. None of the firearms you listed above are such. Though technically, an AK-47 is an assault rifle, because it's full-automatic, but an actual AK-47 is illegal to own without a hard-to-get federal license. What people call an AK-47, that is owned by millions of people in the US, is not an AK-47.  These are all based on the Kalashnikov design, but are incapable of firing full automatic. Which makes them "not assault rifles".  I've owned a few civilianized AKs -- I've never even seen a real AK-47.

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26 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Never heard of it.

"Ro-Sham-Bo" = Rock, Paper, Scissors

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t remember which handbook it was in, but you may recall that even Handbook 2 was restricted in its circulation until recently. Copies were distributed as needed to those in leadership positions, and the leaders were expected to turn their copies back in when the leaders were released. 

I do remember that.  It was so odd that the church would expect members to counsel with their leaders on reproductive issues without ever telling the membership they were supposed to do so.  Things are much better now.

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6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I do remember that.  It was so odd that the church would expect members to counsel with their leaders on reproductive issues without ever telling the membership they were supposed to do so.  Things are much better now.

It bothered me enough that I asked to see my bishop about it.  He basically read the handbook to me and asked how I felt.  I told him that the only thing that I didn't fit was the handbook saying I should talk to him first.  He kind of shrugged his shoulders.  

 

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30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I do remember that.  It was so odd that the church would expect members to counsel with their leaders on reproductive issues without ever telling the membership they were supposed to do so.  Things are much better now.

It could be that the Brethren in the past have thought the incidence of Church members seeking to have themselves surgically sterilized was uncommon enough that it didn’t warrant putting out a general circular on the matter, that it was sufficient to put an item in the handbook to guide leaders in counseling members of their flock who might seek it. 
 

I can’t document this, but the sense I get is that it is only within the past generation or so that it has become so much more common among our members. I suppose I took it for granted that most everyone in the Church shared my intuitive aversion to it. I know I was very surprised when it became apparent to me (again, based on personal observation and word-of-mouth information) that it is a lot more common than I had thought. 

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2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes, fists can kill people, but that isn't their primary purpose.

Try telling that to Chuck Norris. ;) 

 

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

He listed AR 15, AK 47, MM's and shotguns...

So maybe I misunderstand what assault weapons are.

Don't worry. No one is really clear what they are. Mostly depends on what a specific jurisdiction says they are.

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2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes, fists can kill people, but that isn't their primary purpose.

Killing people wouldn’t be my primary purpose for a gun (if I owned one). The purpose would be protection of myself, my family and others. Sometimes, brandishing it is sufficient to accomplish that. 

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44 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It could be that the Brethren in the past have thought the incidence of Church members seeking to have themselves surgically sterilized was uncommon enough that it didn’t warrant putting out a general circular on the matter, that it was sufficient to put an item in the handbook to guide leaders in counseling members of their flock who might seek it. 
 

I can’t document this, but the sense I get is that it is only within the past generation or so that it has become so much more common among our members. I suppose I took it for granted that most everyone in the Church shared my intuitive aversion to it. I know I was very surprised when it became apparent to me (again, based on personal observation and word-of-mouth information) that it is a lot more common than I had thought. 

It’s been fairly prevalent since the late 90s at least. 

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5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It’s been fairly prevalent since the late 90s at least. 

Yeah, a generation or so, just as I supposed. 

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1 hour ago, Rain said:

It bothered me enough that I asked to see my bishop about it.  He basically read the handbook to me and asked how I felt.  I told him that the only thing that I didn't fit was the handbook saying I should talk to him first.  He kind of shrugged his shoulders.  

 

I knew about the counsel but did it anyway without ever speaking to my bishop. My husband and I felt it was right. And three weeks later when my body fell a part after having my fourth child and the ER doctor treating me said I shouldn’t have any more kids, that feeling was confirmed. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, bluebell said:

Didn't it used to be in Handbook 1 that only leaders had access to, or was it in handbook 2 all along.  Not that many people would have a reason to read handbook two if they weren't in a leadership position.

 

It has at least been in Handbook 2 since it went online, which was in 2010.

I found an article earlier from 2013 with the quote and citation that it is from Handbook 2... 

https://utahvalley360.com/2013/08/17/vasectomies-what-you-need-to-know/

  Wiki has the date that version of Handbook 2 was put online.

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t remember which handbook it was in, but you may recall that even Handbook 2 was restricted in its circulation until recently. Copies were distributed as needed to those in leadership positions, and the leaders were expected to turn their copies back in when the leaders were released. 

It has been online over a decade as well as been published in News and other forums even before that and given that you hang out here as well as reported News, the probability  that you would become aware of it is much higher than the typical member, I am guessing.  

https://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=52924468&itype=cmsid

https://www.ldsliving.com/Ask-a-Latter-day-Saint-Therapist-Is-Birth-Control-Against-the-Commandments/s/89844

https://askgramps.org/does-the-mormon-church-have-a-position-on-sterilization-to/

I think your lack of awareness for however many years when the information was just as available as it is now is a good example of why members still have an excuse not to be aware of it in the future.  We shouldn't assume members are aware of it.

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

Nope. Hunting, target shooting, getting rid of pests that want to harm your stock.  People are scary, not guns.  A gun just sitting there won't jump up and starting shooting people. Its the people and it will always be the people.

why are they giving "scary" people guns then? makes zero sense

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