Jump to content

Updates to general handbook


Recommended Posts

28 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Sounds like he's been watching this on a loop since 1984...WOLVERINES!

Well, it's no Iron Eagle...

 

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Interesting thing about this guy is he also stockpiles large quantities of hard liquor, mostly whiskey. He feels like that will become the new currency. He might be on to something there.

Probably not too far off on that one. Might not be the new currency, but alcohol and tobacco are always in high demand, especially in a barter economy where supply has been interrupted.

 

Link to comment
2 hours ago, bluebell said:

The church is probably using the psychological definition of the word "extreme" or "excessive", meaning any behavior that becomes disruptive to everyday life or makes it difficult to function normally in society.

I might say “kooky” or “fanatical” — but that’s just me. 😉 

Link to comment
4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

That part jumped out at me too.

Seriously? You don’t see a qualitative distinction between the Church maintaining a prudent cash reserve for funding its global operations and misguided people preaching unauthoritatively that Church members must prepare to set up tent cities in the desert? 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's interesting. I hadn't thought of that.

Boy, that provides a ton a wiggle room, doesn't it? My first thought is about a functional alcoholic, or really a functional...anything. As long as the drinking doesn't disrupt every day life or make it difficult to function normally in society, the alcoholic would be just fine I guess ;) 

If we look at it specifically with an eye to Prepperism, people could spend thousands and thousands of dollars putting in bunkers and amassing guns, ammo, tents and food that could feed an army and that wouldn't be excessive UNLESS those preparations occupied so much time and/or $$$ that the individual couldn't function "normally".

I know a guy in my ward who lives about 2 miles from me in the country. He has a bunker. He has 50 rifles, 20+ handguns, multiple assault rifles and loads of food and water storage. He has a job and his finances allow him to live "normally" yet he constantly talks about preparing for the end of the world, being self-sufficient, and being ready to shoot anyone who tries to take his supplies. To me, he seems extreme. But to this definition of extreme or excessive, as long as he's reasonably functional, then all is well. Really? That seems like a VERY low bar to set and I have to wonder why the church would even bother if that's what they meant.

I would say that if he is constantly talking about it that it probably is inhibiting him from normal participation in society.

Link to comment
1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

I would say that if he is constantly talking about it that it probably is inhibiting him from normal participation in society.

Not in his social circles.

Just because his circles are vastly different from mine, doesn't mean he's not participating normally within his societal group.

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Not in his social circles.

Just because his circles are vastly different from mine, doesn't mean he's not participating normally within his societal group.

I still wouldn’t call that normal. It is like being in hell. You can presumably socialize all you want there but imagine how dull that socialization is.

Link to comment
3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Seriously? You don’t see a qualitative distinction between the Church maintaining a prudent cash reserve for funding its global operations and misguided people preaching unauthoritatively that Church members must prepare to set up tent cities in the desert? 

"Misguided" or "prudent" is in the eye of the beholder. What seems prudent to me may seem misguided to you and vice versa.

But it all comes down to cost and missed opportunity. If a person/organization saves a tremendous amount of $$$ it might truly be useful in the future but to the expense of how it could be used now. It's choosing one over the other. Are there many prudent ways the church could spend millions and billions of dollars now to help ease suffering throughout the world and move it's missions along? Of course. But they are choosing to forego those opportunities in favor of substantial savings and investments. Some could easily conclude that the missed opportunities were a misguided policy.

Some see $100+ billion as prudent savings while others see it as Scrooge McDuck hording wealth for some unknown future use. To them the massive accumulation of wealth seems excessive and extreme.

In other words, while its nice that the church warns against extremism the warning is so vague that anyone who wishes, or is uncomfortable with the statement, can easily swipe it aside and ignore it as not applying to them. To the individual, or the church, what they are doing seems totally reasonable so there's no need to change.

 

Link to comment
5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I still wouldn’t call that normal. It is like being in hell. You can presumably socialize all you want there but imagine how dull that socialization is.

Yes. And I can compare it to other political rally-type groups and social circles but just because it's not my thing doesn't mean it doesn't fit in society.

Link to comment
4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

"Misguided" or "prudent" is in the eye of the beholder. What seems prudent to me may seem misguided to you and vice versa.

But it all comes down to cost and missed opportunity. If a person/organization saves a tremendous amount of $$$ it might truly be useful in the future but to the expense of how it could be used now. It's choosing one over the other. Are there many prudent ways the church could spend millions and billions of dollars now to help ease suffering throughout the world and move it's missions along? Of course. But they are choosing to forego those opportunities in favor of substantial savings and investments. Some could easily conclude that the missed opportunities were a misguided policy.

Some see $100+ billion as prudent savings while others see it as Scrooge McDuck hording wealth for some unknown future use. To them the massive accumulation of wealth seems excessive and extreme.

In other words, while its nice that the church warns against extremism the warning is so vague that anyone who wishes, or is uncomfortable with the statement, can easily swipe it aside and ignore it as not applying to them. To the individual, or the church, what they are doing seems totally reasonable so there's no need to change.

 

“He that hath ears to hear” etc. 

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree.  Of course there is going to be some subjectivity on any issue.   

But even given the "you'll find a group to support absolutely anything imaginable" angle, psychologists have still managed to use those definitions successfully.  That's because it's not based on what is accepted in society but more so what allows someone to function in it the way the average person functions.  

For example, average people don't spend 90% of their time prepping for the end of the world (regardless of whether or not there is a niche out there that thinks it's great).  They don't spend all of their spare money on bunkers either.  That kind of behavior would be considered extreme by the average person, even if a small subset believed it to be the patriotic thing to do.

 

So then it would seem "extreme" and "excessive" isn't really about whether or not the person can function but whether or not their behaviors are an outlier within the society because they don't fit within the standard or average of society.

What the average person thinks about another person's behaviors shouldn't really matter in your psychological definition. I feel like I'm missing something.

Link to comment
5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree.  Of course there is going to be some subjectivity on any issue.   

But even given the "you'll find a group to support absolutely anything imaginable" angle, psychologists have still managed to use those definitions successfully.  That's because it's not based on what is accepted in society but more so what allows someone to function in it the way the average person functions.  

For example, average people don't spend 90% of their time prepping for the end of the world (regardless of whether or not there is a niche out there that thinks it's great).  They don't spend all of their spare money on bunkers either.  That kind of behavior would be considered extreme by the average person, even if a small subset believed it to be the patriotic thing to do.

 

The word normative comes to mind. 

Link to comment
1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So I guess we'll have to hope that the wackadoos have ears to hear and make substantial changes based on the vague church statements. I'm sure that will work well.

I think for a good many, it will work.  You seem to be viewing people through a binary perspective. 
 

I don’t think the statement is all that vague, by the way. 

Link to comment
29 minutes ago, bluebell said:

For example, average people don't spend 90% of their time prepping for the end of the world (regardless of whether or not there is a niche out there that thinks it's great).  They don't spend all of their spare money on bunkers either. 

Even among people with end-times prophecies it's an outlier.

The church tells us that we should have food storage (when I was young they taught two years, then one year) and 3-day emergency kits in case something happens that means things change rapidly. Retreating to a hole in your garden for a year and trying to survive on your 5 year old corn and recycled urine is definitely much more extreme than that.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think for a good many, it will work.  You seem to be viewing people through a binary perspective. 

“There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle. Even the Saints are slow to understand.”

Maybe this generation will do better though.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So then it would seem "extreme" and "excessive" isn't really about whether or not the person can function but whether or not their behaviors are an outlier within the society because they don't fit within the standard or average of society.

What the average person thinks about another person's behaviors shouldn't really matter in your psychological definition. I feel like I'm missing something.

I feel like maybe you are trying to miss something.  Any chance you are hangry?  :D 

Link to comment

"An added policy on extreme preparation or survivalism (38.8.16) counsels Latter-day Saints to be wise in the pursuit of self-reliance and emergency preparedness. The Church counsels “against extreme or excessive preparation for possible catastrophic events. … Efforts to prepare should be motivated by faith, not fear. Church leaders have counseled members not to go into debt to establish food storage. Instead, members should establish a home storage supply and a financial reserve over time.”

I see nothing wrong with "extreme" preparation as long as one can afford it.  Taking out loans and creating financial hardship is not a good idea.  One can stockpile a lot of supplies including guns and ammo in the spirit of faith and not fear. 

Link to comment
22 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Having the section about vaccinations should make it clear where the church stands on the use of modern medical services.  In my opinion, this was a good and needed addition to the handbook.

Why needed? Why does any religious organization need to issue a statement on something so unrelated to Faith in Christ? 

Edited by provoman
Link to comment
8 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Boy, that provides a ton a wiggle room, doesn't it?

I've known people who considered attending church more than once per month as being extremist or fanatic. I've known people who considering refraining from tobacco, coffee, tea and alcohol to be extremist or fanatic. Ditto on refraining from pre- or extra-marital sex. 

Extremism is very much in the eye of the beholder. 

When I met my very first Mormon, in middle school, I was shocked that he planned to serve a mission. My first thought was that he was a religious fanatic.

And later, while I was preparing to serve a mission myself, I kind of shocked some of my friends and relatives. Including my own father.

 

Link to comment
6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Interesting thing about this guy is he also stockpiles large quantities of hard liquor, mostly whiskey. He feels like that will become the new currency. He might be on to something there.

That actually was one of the pieces of advice that I got from a hardcore prepper of my acquaintance, including large quantities of ammunition -- not to shoot, but for trade goods.

That's actually fairly practical, since even if the balloon never goes up, these items can still be of value in trade.

Link to comment
11 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

That actually was one of the pieces of advice that I got from a hardcore prepper of my acquaintance, including large quantities of ammunition -- not to shoot, but for trade goods.

That's actually fairly practical, since even if the balloon never goes up, these items can still be of value in trade.

True, but do you really want to have neighbors who are drunk and armed? 

Link to comment
18 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

In the case of surgical sterilisation, enough people probably ask that they found it easier to put it there than to keep having to answer messages from bishops.

In the case of vaccinations, putting it in the handbook is more polite than President Nelson standing up in general conference and calling people selfish idiots.

I just can’t make the connection between people’s private medical decisions and their church leaders. Why doesn’t the church adopt the stance they have on birth control?-which is essentially that adults ought to make their own decisions on such matters.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...