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2 hours ago, Teancum said:

I wonder if you give the same pass for other powerful religious sect male leaders who do polygamy. Or is Joseph just special?

He's definitely special.  He is second only to the Savior.

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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Do you think that Pres Hinckley likewise obfuscated about the righteous becoming gods in a national interview for the same reasons?

Similar reasons I'd expect. A TV interview is not a good format for laying out a full doctrinal exposition of the Plan of Salvation. Also, it must be considered that the dominant conception of God in Hinckley's audience of Protestant Americans is that of an omnigod, which we will not become. It's unlikely for that nuance to really get across to everyone who will just hear "yep we're gonna be gods folks". His confirmation would have ultimately resulted in a damaging misconception. Just as Taylor, if he had confirmed polygamy, would have given credibility wholesale to the slanderous, salacious, and utterly false Bennett tales. 

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I used to have the need to believe in Joseph Smith.  As I have progressed in my knowledge and understanding, I no longer have that need....

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10 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

I used to have the need to believe in Joseph Smith.  As I have progressed in my knowledge and understanding, I no longer have that need....

K.

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On 3/30/2021 at 3:59 AM, The Nehor said:

ese emperors are probably the ones who took this the most to excess with multiple wives and hundreds and sometimes around ten thousand concubines (Solomon was a lightweight) with all the soap opera politicking that leads to. Generally a lot of the concubines were ceremonial though. It is likely the Emperor was only sexually involved with around 50 or so. 

Those emperors were pikers compared with Gene Simmons, Lamar Odom, Hugh Hefner, and Magic Johnson. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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On 3/31/2021 at 12:04 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

You are claiming that Joseph Smith was a liar and a cheat, yet at the same time insisting that such opinions about gay people would be completely inappropriate.  Do you realize what it means to be tolerant and gracious?  Apparently not.  You seem to prefer to have it both ways, typical of a two-face.

You already stated on this thread that your judgment was that it was deceit, but only because God does not exist, and because Joseph was merely slaking his lust.  Joseph could not possibly have received a commandment from God.  Rather than tolerance for non-traditional forms of marriage, just like any ultra-conservative you condemn what someone else does because they are lying.  They have to be lying, according to you.  And this would undoubtedly include Muslim polygamists, and any other polygamists in history.

Here we are living in a supposed Constitutional democracy, but you feel free to condemn people whose lifestyles don't fit your preconceptions.  How then do you differ (if at all) from the bigots who have been so condemnatory of homosexual lifestyles?  Are you siding with the cops at Stonewall?  Are you rejecting "equal protection of the laws" under the guise of intent -- via mind-reading?

You are just like the hypocritical racist who says that all people should be treated equally, but those people over there are evil by nature.  What happened to tolerance for differing lifestyles?  Or does it even matter to you?

I honestly debated whether to even answer your post because it appears you have no interest in what I ACTUALLY said.  

As far as your rant, this is directly from my post.

Quote

 

You are wrong on this one.  I think everyone can marry anyone they want.  It makes no difference to me, nor should it to anyone else.  How one practices marriage is between them and whom they marry.  I don't care how many wives Joseph Smith had.  I am talking about the deceit that he practiced in doing so and justifying that deceit in the name of God.

We are talking about a totally different subject here aren't we.  We are not talking about civil rights under the secular laws of this country.  

 

Does that sound like someone who is opposed to polygamy or any other form of alternative marriage?  Please keep rereading what I have now stated twice as many times as you need to to understand my position on alternative marriages. 

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4 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Those emperors were pikers compared with Gene Simmons, Hugh Hefner, and Magic Johnson. 

Don't forget Wilt Chamberlain.

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4 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Don't forget Wilt Chamberlain.

And Martin Luther King. 

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1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

And Martin Luther King. 

I'm not touching that one.  Wilt took the cake with his boast of 20,000.  I'm happy to end the discussion right there.

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25 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I'm not touching that one.  Wilt took the cake with his boast of 20,000.  I'm happy to end the discussion right there.

Yep.

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Doubt it.

I don't.  Not for a second.

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1 hour ago, 2BizE said:

I used to have the need to believe in Joseph Smith.  As I have progressed in my knowledge and understanding, I no longer have that need....

If you believe that your understanding is misunderstanding.

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1 hour ago, ttribe said:

Wilt took the cake with his boast of 20,000.

How...never mind I don't want the answer to that question. 

Edited by OGHoosier
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7 hours ago, california boy said:

I honestly debated whether to even answer your post because it appears you have no interest in what I ACTUALLY said.  

As far as your rant, this is directly from my post.

Does that sound like someone who is opposed to polygamy or any other form of alternative marriage?  Please keep rereading what I have now stated twice as many times as you need to to understand my position on alternative marriages. 

I very carefully read exactly what you said several times, and you have repeated yourself, which is why you are a two-face hypocrite.  You make the high-minded statements and then accompany them by sick bigoted statements, the kind of statements which the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) considers defamation.  You apparently think that voicing high-minded statements from one side of your mouth justifies the evil from the other side.   Very much like the Christian fundamentalists who claim to support the Constitution and then immediately attack gay rights.

If, on the other hand, you point to the hypocrisy of the LDS Church in attacking gay rights while once defending their right to practice polygamy, we can agree.  The gracious and tolerant response is to accept the divergent practices without calling into question the probity of the other side.  Yet you feel compelled to attack LDS probity in the historical practice of polygamy.  I really don't care whether it is you or Carol Lynn Pearson making those defamatory statements.  They are still inappropriate.  The issue is not whether there is a god, or whether Joseph Smith was honest.  Those are matters of opinion and faith, just as it is a matter of faith for the Jews who are celebrating Passover.  What you are doing is tantamount to saying that, yes, the Jews have a right to celebrate Passover, but we all know that there was no Moses and that the event never happened, and that it is all a lie.  Damning with faint praise.

You desperately need to reread your own words.  I highlighted them, and you ignored them.

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On 3/31/2021 at 10:13 PM, JLHPROF said:

He's definitely special.  He is second only to the Savior.

🤣

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On 3/30/2021 at 11:17 PM, webbles said:

In 1835, Joseph Smith only had one polygamous marriage.  Next one would be 1838.  I don't see how it was clearly meant to deceive.  I see Joseph Smith trying to understand polygamy at this time and being wary of it since his first attempt went poorly.

If this had been added in the 1840s, then I could see it being meant to deceive.

in 1835 he had ones woman we know he had an affair with.  There is no record he married her nor is there evidence that the concept of eternal marriage was even known by Joseph.  It seems more likely Joseph invented polygamy as a defense of his affair when he got caught up in it.  The 1835 D&C taught monogamy. If Joseph really was being told to practice plural marriage at that time then the article on marriage it a lie. Plain a simple.

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6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I very carefully read exactly what you said several times, and you have repeated yourself, which is why you are a two-face hypocrite.  You make the high-minded statements and then accompany them by sick bigoted statements, the kind of statements which the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) considers defamation.  You apparently think that voicing high-minded statements from one side of your mouth justifies the evil from the other side.   Very much like the Christian fundamentalists who claim to support the Constitution and then immediately attack gay rights.

If, on the other hand, you point to the hypocrisy of the LDS Church in attacking gay rights while once defending their right to practice polygamy, we can agree.  The gracious and tolerant response is to accept the divergent practices without calling into question the probity of the other side.  Yet you feel compelled to attack LDS probity in the historical practice of polygamy.  I really don't care whether it is you or Carol Lynn Pearson making those defamatory statements.  They are still inappropriate.  The issue is not whether there is a god, or whether Joseph Smith was honest.  Those are matters of opinion and faith, just as it is a matter of faith for the Jews who are celebrating Passover.  What you are doing is tantamount to saying that, yes, the Jews have a right to celebrate Passover, but we all know that there was no Moses and that the event never happened, and that it is all a lie.  Damning with faint praise.

You desperately need to reread your own words.  I highlighted them, and you ignored them.

And just what sick bigoted statement have I made.  Can you be more specific and quote the statements from me directly from my posts?  I am really interested to understand where you are coming from.  

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On 3/31/2021 at 1:44 AM, Risingtide said:

OK, I don't like being a critic of the Church. I think I need to lay this subject aside for a while. I've feel blessed to have been a member of the Church. I love the members of my ward, and greatly respect the leaders both local and general. I don't want to give up the good influence the Church has given me. I feel the road I'm on threatens something that's been quite precious to me

It is dangerous waters to swim in.  But then challenging anything we have long held dear and truthful is.  Personally I think it is worth it.

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6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I thought the Second Comforter was the Holy Spirit.

Doesn't the D&C say that besides Jesus, Joseph Smith has done more for the salvation of man?  Even when I was a believer I thought that was a bit over-the-top.

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6 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

Doesn't the D&C say that besides Jesus, Joseph Smith has done more for the salvation of man?  Even when I was a believer I thought that was a bit over-the-top.

Joseph's quote is boastful about him doing more doesn't sit too well:

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it.   I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” —Joseph Smith, May 26, 1844, History of the Church, vol 6, pp. 408-409

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Joseph's quote is boastful about him doing more doesn't sit too well:

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it.   I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.” —Joseph Smith, May 26, 1844, History of the Church, vol 6, pp. 408-409

Is no consideration given to the fact that at this point in time Joseph was under extreme duress, his enemies hounding him like bloodthirsty jackals? He knew he was very likely going to soon die a martyr’s death (he was killed one month later) and he was being understandably defiant in the face of his hate filled enemies who would soon murder him and his brother Hyrum. Under these circumstances, I can cut the prophet some slack.

And is it not of tremendous significance that as the prophet was about to die at the hands of the mob he requested John Taylor sing that most humbling of all hymns, ‘A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief,”’ over and over again? It’s always best to see things in balance rather than succumb to the temptation to analyze things out of balance because of a personal agenda driven by confirmation bias..

Through faith in Christ, I personally try to do draw nearer to God by striving to be more and more like him each day, yet I have those moments when, if taken in isolation, it would appear to the uncharitable I’m a wicked man.

Edited by teddyaware
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55 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

Doesn't the D&C say that besides Jesus, Joseph Smith has done more for the salvation of man?  Even when I was a believer I thought that was a bit over-the-top.

It's true though.  Who else has done more as far as saving ordinances and gospel revelation?

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