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The millennium - a curious doctrine


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2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

We " can't HANDLE the truth " !!

I forgot a factor that will affect the righteousness of the world in the Millennium. At His coming and before, the earth's population of particularly the wicked, will be destroyed. Also , many righteous ( as many as one half ) will be caught up to meet Him. How many of those return to earth is unknown. 

 

Say “hi” to the City of Enoch for me. I would say it myself but I will probably be trying to cook one final S’mores on myself and hopefully eat it before the flames are done.

Edited by The Nehor
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51 minutes ago, california boy said:

I am curious.  Do you think it is possible to have a war in the Celestial Kingdom where many of these conditions will also be possible?  

No, because character weaknesses that lead to such behaviour have been removed from us through the full acceptance of the Atonement.

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On 3/29/2021 at 2:36 PM, The Nehor said:

Nope, they are resurrected at the beginning of the Millenium at their current age and, per Joseph Smith, are raised by their parents. I assume that only applies if the parents are resurrected. I am guessing there will be a huge need for adoption in the first part of the Millenium as well.

I also suspect that the ‘twinkling of an eye’ ‘death’ is not a thing for them as they have already been resurrected so seems likely they will live on earth until the end of the Millenium.

Again, I am way off in speculation land. I take no responsibility for anyone who believes this to be the true gospel and gets damned for it.

Reminds me of something Joseph Smith Jr. had to say about the ex-communication of someone who believed a little something (can't remember what that something was off-hand, sorry!) that a stake high council took exception to.  Joseph Smith Jr. reversed the ex-communication saying something along the lines of "a man can be damned for believing too little but may not be damned for believing too much."  

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8 minutes ago, Douglas Avans said:

Reminds me of something Joseph Smith Jr. had to say about the ex-communication of someone who believed a little something (can't remember what that something was off-hand, sorry!) that a stake high council took exception to.  Joseph Smith Jr. reversed the ex-communication saying something along the lines of "a man can be damned for believing too little but may not be damned for believing too much."  

I like that quote, but you know, I've never been able to find any record of Joseph saying it.  It's nowhere on the Joseph Smith papers site, not in the TPJS or WJS compilations.
The only possible reference is Discourses of Joseph Smith by Burton pg 39 but I don't have a copy to check the reference.

Reminds me of the Brigham Young quote that Brigham never said:

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Reminds me of the Brigham Young quote that Brigham never said:

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Just because it was never recorded did not meant it was never said by them. I accept this quote without question:

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What purpose would the millennium have?

1) temple work

2) repairing the earth

3) introduction of ordinances not yet known

4) recovery and translation of ancient scriptures not yet found

5) completing works of salvation that require a more direct communication between mortals and angels

6) Advancements science and technology to prepare our species for divinity. The school of the prophets becomes the school of the temple worthy scientist

7) advances in forms of government to prepare  our species for divinity

 

I can see that as humanity makes great strides in social advancement, Satan will try to make a final effort to prevent us from our next stage of evolution as a species. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Freedom said:

What purpose would the millennium have?

1) temple work

2) repairing the earth

3) introduction of ordinances not yet known

4) recovery and translation of ancient scriptures not yet found

5) completing works of salvation that require a more direct communication between mortals and angels

6) Advancements science and technology to prepare our species for divinity. The school of the prophets becomes the school of the temple worthy scientist

7) advances in forms of government to prepare  our species for divinity

 

I can see that as humanity makes great strides in social advancement, Satan will try to make a final effort to prevent us from our next stage of evolution as a species. 

 

 

You forgot the most important one - direct political administration by the Savior.

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5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

You forgot the most important one - direct political administration by the Savior.

I am not sure that this is the purpose so much as the means that will allow critical work to be accomplished. But it certainly will be how government is directed. a UN with real teeth. 

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1 hour ago, Freedom said:

What purpose would the millennium have?

1) temple work

2) repairing the earth

3) introduction of ordinances not yet known

4) recovery and translation of ancient scriptures not yet found

5) completing works of salvation that require a more direct communication between mortals and angels

6) Advancements science and technology to prepare our species for divinity. The school of the prophets becomes the school of the temple worthy scientist

7) advances in forms of government to prepare  our species for divinity

 

I can see that as humanity makes great strides in social advancement, Satan will try to make a final effort to prevent us from our next stage of evolution as a species. 

 

 

A chance to perfect ourselves.

It is not that Satan will make one final effort. It is that he will be allowed to offer his alternative one last time so those who did not get a chance in physical form will. His desperation alone will not release him or his followers. Who knows? There may even be a piece of fruit someone eats or some equivalent to let him out.

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10 minutes ago, Freedom said:

I am not sure that this is the purpose so much as the means that will allow critical work to be accomplished. But it certainly will be how government is directed. a UN with real teeth. 

You just sent tens of thousands of crazy people into a paroxysm of despair imagining their nightmare UN.

I don't think it will have real teeth. That suggests that God is willing to rule by coercion and might. I have met far too many people (not saying you are one of them) for whom the only significant difference between God and Satan is that God will win and the key is to pick the winner. They see both as a kind of bully bent of compelling obedience but if they pick the winner they will get power over those who disagree and finally be able to gloat over those (insert enemy here) who will finally see how wrong they were. I admit that often appeals to me but I suspect that impulse is more diabolic than divine.

If the government needs teeth and seeks to compel obedience in a Terrestrial World I doubt Jesus would be willing to be at the head of it at all.

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You just sent tens of thousands of crazy people into a paroxysm of despair imagining their nightmare UN.

I don't think it will have real teeth. That suggests that God is willing to rule by coercion and might. I have met far too many people (not saying you are one of them) for whom the only significant difference between God and Satan is that God will win and the key is to pick the winner. They see both as a kind of bully bent of compelling obedience but if they pick the winner they will get power over those who disagree and finally be able to gloat over those (insert enemy here) who will finally see how wrong they were. I admit that often appeals to me but I suspect that impulse is more diabolic than divine.

If the government needs teeth and seeks to compel obedience in a Terrestrial World I doubt Jesus would be willing to be at the head of it at all.

At some point God will enforce his laws on the earth.  But until then you are right.

Just as religious freedom will be maintained AND every knee will now and tongue confess.

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On 3/28/2021 at 4:29 PM, Freedom said:

The concept of a 100 years of peace that culminates in more wickedness is one doctrine that I do not quite understand. We have an amazing second coming which would in effect put an end to all temporal social orders and bring in a regime headed by God himself. We know that there are somethings that, in Gods good wisdom, can only be done by mortals. So perhaps we have this proverbial overtime period to get all the temple work and other matters completed. This is a message of hope for those who are not able to do family history because the records have been lost. There will be no death as we know it, and no war. and then it abruptly all goes to hell? 

 

Why 1000 years. Perhaps this is a symbolic number that could be 50 years, 200 years or any other timeline that is simply a pure and perfect schedule to get all the needed work done. 

And why the final battle? What doctrinal value is there in knowing this? Why would it be allowed to happen if the government is lead by God himself? If He can make it all s  top at the second coming, why let it happen again? It makes me think of part in The Stand where 'mother' sends the community leaders to Los Vegas to die. they do not change anything, they do not save anybody. If they did not go the same results would have come about. 

 

my general perspective is that teachings in the scriptures are indented to be likened unto ourselves. Rather than trying to speculate on  what it means for the moon to turn to blood, we should be thinking, what does the blood moon mean to me. 

If the entire doctrine of the millennium was not mentioned in the scriptures, I do not see it making any difference in the gospel plan because it all occurs after the second coming. Knowing about the final battle also is so far removed from anybody ever that it seems pointless to mention.

Unless there is some principle that is being taught that I am missing.  

The economics, geopolitical and social complexities that will exist in the world prior to and during the Millenium we cannot but speculate about at this time. There are events taking place right now that would have seem a physical impossibility, to sat the least, or pure madness to those living just a century or so ago.

One thing we know with absolute certainty; whatsoever the Lord our God has decreed will come to pass. We read: "…I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ ...calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it." –Isaiah 46:9-10 

No everything has been revealed not will it be. We must be diligent students of the word of God as to be prepared, dutiful in doing the work He has commanded which is the evidence of our faith, love and devotion to Him. The rest is in His very capable hands and we should not worry about it. Knowing and understanding His character and nature is sufficient to trust in the Holy Council of His WiIl for all humanity. To attempt to scrutinize His purposes or logic when He has not desired to reveal them is rather a futile exercise. 

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts". Isa 55:8-9

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2 hours ago, Islander said:

The economics, geopolitical and social complexities that will exist in the world prior to and during the Millenium we cannot but speculate about at this time. There are events taking place right now that would have seem a physical impossibility, to sat the least, or pure madness to those living just a century or so ago.

One thing we know with absolute certainty; whatsoever the Lord our God has decreed will come to pass. We read: "…I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’ ...calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it." –Isaiah 46:9-10 

No everything has been revealed not will it be. We must be diligent students of the word of God as to be prepared, dutiful in doing the work He has commanded which is the evidence of our faith, love and devotion to Him. The rest is in His very capable hands and we should not worry about it. Knowing and understanding His character and nature is sufficient to trust in the Holy Council of His WiIl for all humanity. To attempt to scrutinize His purposes or logic when He has not desired to reveal them is rather a futile exercise. 

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts". Isa 55:8-9

It is not futile. It is how you grow to understand them and get more revelations about them.

"And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him."

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On 3/28/2021 at 4:29 PM, Freedom said:

The concept of a 100 years of peace that culminates in more wickedness is one doctrine that I do not quite understand.

I wonder if it is more accurately characterized as a prophecy, rather than a "doctrine."  A prophecy predicts what will happen, and does not necessarily speak to the correctness or propriety of what is described will happen.  Doctrine, on the other hand, tends to reveal moral truths, prescribes right conduct and proscribes sin.

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We have an amazing second coming which would in effect put an end to all temporal social orders and bring in a regime headed by God himself.

Yes.

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We know that there are some things that, in Gods good wisdom, can only be done by mortals. So perhaps we have this proverbial overtime period to get all the temple work and other matters completed. This is a message of hope for those who are not able to do family history because the records have been lost.

Yes.

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There will be no death as we know it, and no war. and then it abruptly all goes to hell? 

Apparently so.  See chapter 45 from Gospel Principles:

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One Final Struggle after the Millennium

  • What will be the final destiny of the earth?

At the end of the 1,000 years, Satan will be set free for a short time. Some people will turn away from Heavenly Father. Satan will gather his armies, and Michael (Adam) will gather the hosts of heaven. In this great struggle, Satan and his followers will be cast out forever. The earth will be changed into a celestial kingdom. (See D&C 29:22–29; 88:17–20, 110–15.)

And Chapter 37 of the Doctrines of the Gospel student manual:

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Doctrinal Outline

  1. The thousand years of the Millennium will be ushered in when the Savior comes in power and glory.  See Doctrine and Covenants 29:11; Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:36; 2 Thessalonians 1:7–8.

  2. The earth will be renewed for the millennial day.

  3. The Millennium will be a time of peace.

  4. During the Millennium the Savior will reign personally on the earth.

  5. The final glorification of the earth will take place sometime after the Millennium.

Quite a few additional interesting quotes on this subject available here.

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Why 1000 years. Perhaps this is a symbolic number that could be 50 years, 200 years or any other timeline that is simply a pure and perfect schedule to get all the needed work done. 

I'm open to it being not exactly 1,000 years.  But perhaps a very long time.

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And why the final battle?

I think we can only surmise.  

 For non-canonized thoughts on this subject, see this quote from Elder George Q. Cannon:

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When Satan will be bound, he will have no power to tempt the [p.87] children of men. This happy period will cover one thousand years. Then Satan will be loosed again. Why will he be loosed again? Because a generation will arise, some of which in the exercise of their agency will listen and yield to him. Thus he will have power over them. They will become his willing servants. In this way wickedness and all the evils under which the earth now groans will be introduced among men; for whenever men will listen to Satan and exercise their agency in that direction, wickedness flourishes and righteousness lessens. (Gospel Truth, 1:86)

And this one from Elder Orson Pratt:

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When the period called the Millennium has passed away, Satan will again be loosed. Now the query arises, Will Satan have power to deceive those who have lived on the earth, and have fallen asleep for a moment, and have received their immortal bodies? No, he will not. When they have passed through their probation, and have received their immortal bodies, Satan will have no power over them. Thus generation after generation will pass away, during the Millennium, but by and by, at the close of that period, unnumbered millions of the posterity of those who lived during the Millennium will be scattered in the four quarters of the earth, and Satan will be loosed, and will go forth and tempt them, and overcome some of them, so that they will rebel against God; not rebel in ignorance or dwindle in unbelief, as the Lamanites did; but they will sin wilfully against the law of heaven, and so great will the power of Satan be over them, that he will gather them together against the Saints and against the beloved city, and fire will come down out of heaven and consume them.

And this one from Elder Daniel H. Wells:

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We read that Satan shall be bound a thousand years. How is this to be accomplished? By our becoming so impregnated with the principles of the Gospel-with the Holy Ghost-that the enemy will have no place in us or in our families, and shedding forth that influence in our neighborhoods. . . . Then will he not be bound? Yes, so far as this earth is concerned; and that is the way in which it is to be done, in my humble opinion. He will be chained to all intents and purposes when he can have no influence-no power-no tabernacles into which he can enter; he will then have no place of entertainment. When he finds that he is cornered that close, will he not consider himself bound? I think he will, whether he thinks so or not. (In Tabernacle, March 22, 1857, JD5:43) TLDP:401

And from Elder McConkie (same link as above) :

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What does it mean to bind Satan? How is he Bound? Our revelation says: "And in that day Satan shall not have power to tempt any man." (D&C 101:28) Does this mean that power is withdrawn from Satan so that he can no longer entice men to do evil? Or does it mean that men no longer succumb to his enticements because their hearts are so set on righteousness that they refuse to forsake that which is good to follow him who is evil? Clearly it means the latter. Satan was not bound in heaven, in the very presence of God, in the sense that he was denied the right and power to preach false doctrine and to invite men to walk away from that God whose children they were: nay, in this sense, he could not have been bound in heaven, for even he must have his agency.

How, then, will Satan be bound during the Millennium? It will be by the righteousness of the people. . . .

. . . . Thus Satan is bound because he "shall have power over the hearts of the children of men no more, for a long time." (2Ne.30:18) Thus the probationary nature of man's second estate is preserved even during the Millennium. It is not that men cannot sin, for the power is in them to do so-they have their agency-but it is that they do not sin because Satan is subject to them, and they are not enticed by his evil whisperings. (The Millennial Messiah, pp. 668-69) TLDP:401

And here:

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John tells us, "Satan shall be loosed out of his prison." (Rev.20:7) This means that once again men will begin to give heed to his enticements. Satan was bound among the Nephites during their golden era. None of the people were then subject to his wiles; all lived in righteousness, and all were saved. But in A.D. 201, "there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world. And from that time forth they did have their goods and their substance no more common among them. And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ." (4Ne.1:24-26). . . .

Satan will be loosed because he is no longer bound by the righteousness of the people.

"And when he [Satan] is loosed again he shall only reign for a little season, and then cometh the end of the earth." (D&C 43:31) (The Millennial Messiah, pp. 694-95) TLDP:408-09

And from Elder George Q. Cannon again:

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We talk about Satan being bound. Satan will be bound by the power of God; but he will be bound also by the determination of the people of God not to listen to him, not to be governed by him. The Lord will not bind him and take his power from the earth while there are men and women willing to be governed by him. That is contrary to the plan of salvation. To deprive men of their agency is contrary to the purposes of God. . . .

Satan only gains power over man through man's exercise of his own agency; and when Satan shall be bound, as the Lord says he will be for a thousand years, one of the great powers that will help bring this to pass will be man's agency. The Lord has never forced men against their will to obey Him. He never will do so. If Satan, therefore, has power with man, it is because man yields to his influence. . . .

The time is not far distant when great judgments will be poured out upon the wicked inhabitants of the earth. Every Prophet who has looked forward to our day has seen and predicted that the wicked would be destroyed. Their destruction means the destruction of Satan's power. The righteous will be left, and because of their righteousness the Lord will have mercy upon them; they, exercising their agency in the right direction, will bring down His blessings upon them to such an extent that Satan will be bound. CR1897Oct:64

And from Elder Joseph Fielding Smith:

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After the thousand years Satan will be loosed again and will go forth again to deceive the nations. Because men are still mortal, Satan will go out to deceive them. Men will again deny the Lord, but in doing so they will act with their eyes open and because they love darkness rather than light, and so they become sons of perdition. Satan will gather his hosts, both those on the earth and the wicked dead who will eventually also be brought forth in the resurrection. Michael, the Prince, will gather his forces and the last great battle will be fought. Satan will be defeated with his hosts. Then will come the end. Satan and those who follow him will be banished into outer darkness. (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:87-88) TLDP:407:08

I think we have been given scriptural propheces as to the what, but not as much as to the why.

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What doctrinal value is there in knowing this? Why would it be allowed to happen if the government is lead by God himself? If He can make it all s  top at the second coming, why let it happen again? 

Food for thought as to the primacy of individual agency, faith and obedience?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited by smac97
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On 5/2/2021 at 12:15 PM, The Nehor said:

It is not futile. It is how you grow to understand them and get more revelations about them.

"And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him."

I fail to see the relationship between the scripture you quoted and my response to the original post. He was rather speculating in regards to a number of issued related to the Millennium. There are reasons why God has not revealed any additional details about future events and no amount of prayer or diligence is going to change that. Either you have a very low and rather trivial view of what the revelatory phenomenon is or you do not understand really what it is and what function it plays. 

True revelation is ALWAYS connected to the purposes of God for His people, as a whole. It is driven by His reasons and will but ALWAYS with the redemption and spiritual growth of His children in mind. Personal inspiration by the Spirit (which some call "revelation") does not rise to that level. It is geared solely to guide personal spiritual growth, strength, decision-making, safety and capacity-building for service, for example. If there was a reason for further revelation about that part of redemptive history God will reveal that to His appointed prophet as the instrument to disseminate such knowledge and application the way the Lord intended rather than to a random person.

Such speculations are a typical example of "looking beyond the mark" as described in the scriptures.

"They despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall” (Jacob 4:14

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1 hour ago, Islander said:

I fail to see the relationship between the scripture you quoted and my response to the original post. He was rather speculating in regards to a number of issued related to the Millennium. There are reasons why God has not revealed any additional details about future events and no amount of prayer or diligence is going to change that. Either you have a very low and rather trivial view of what the revelatory phenomenon is or you do not understand really what it is and what function it plays. 

True revelation is ALWAYS connected to the purposes of God for His people, as a whole. It is driven by His reasons and will but ALWAYS with the redemption and spiritual growth of His children in mind. Personal inspiration by the Spirit (which some call "revelation") does not rise to that level. It is geared solely to guide personal spiritual growth, strength, decision-making, safety and capacity-building for service, for example. If there was a reason for further revelation about that part of redemptive history God will reveal that to His appointed prophet as the instrument to disseminate such knowledge and application the way the Lord intended rather than to a random person.

Such speculations are a typical example of "looking beyond the mark" as described in the scriptures.

"They despised the words of plainness, and killed the prophets, and sought for things that they could not understand. Wherefore, because of their blindness, which blindness came by looking beyond the mark, they must needs fall” (Jacob 4:14

The idea that God will not reveal more to individuals about the plan of salvation or whatever on the macro scale than he has revealed publicly is wrong. Revelation is also not alway tied to everyone as a collective whole. God can reveal what he likes to a random person but as the scripture I quoted say that person is not to teach it as revelation. That is for Priesthood channels.

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38 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The idea that God will not reveal more to individuals about the plan of salvation or whatever on the macro scale than he has revealed publicly is wrong. Revelation is also not alway tied to everyone as a collective whole. God can reveal what he likes to a random person but as the scripture I quoted say that person is not to teach it as revelation. That is for Priesthood channels.

As I have previously mentioned, one of my favourite experiences has been hearing personal revelations to me taught and confirmed by the living prophets in General Conference. 

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16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As I have previously mentioned, one of my favourite experiences has been hearing personal revelations to me taught and confirmed by the living prophets in General Conference. 

That is good stuff but the stuff you get outside of it is also fun.

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22 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The idea that God will not reveal more to individuals about the plan of salvation or whatever on the macro scale than he has revealed publicly is wrong. Revelation is also not alway tied to everyone as a collective whole. God can reveal what he likes to a random person but as the scripture I quoted say that person is not to teach it as revelation. That is for Priesthood channels.

I made no reference to the plan of salvation. We were, specifically, taking about the Millennium. There is absolutely no evidence in the scriptures about God revealing something to a random person for no reason at all. God never does random. He does and will reveal to His prophet but not just anyone for no reason at all. 

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20 minutes ago, Islander said:

I made no reference to the plan of salvation. We were, specifically, taking about the Millennium. There is absolutely no evidence in the scriptures about God revealing something to a random person for no reason at all. God never does random. He does and will reveal to His prophet but not just anyone for no reason at all. 

Why do you assume that I am suggesting this revelation is random or irrational?

When the mysteries come it is due to a need or as a blessing. Many know mysteries of the kingdom that only others who have received that mystery know. It is to aid them, to comfort them, to strengthen them, or even as a gift that leads to good. God does not randomly throw it out there.

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18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Why do you assume that I am suggesting this revelation is random or irrational?

When the mysteries come it is due to a need or as a blessing. Many know mysteries of the kingdom that only others who have received that mystery know. It is to aid them, to comfort them, to strengthen them, or even as a gift that leads to good. God does not randomly throw it out there.

You keep sliding into a tangent and generalizing my statements. I was, specifically, talking about the Millennium. Further, what you propose is completely hypothetical. There is absolutely nothing in scripture to sustain your position. That is the role of scripture and the Holy Spirit; to aid in time of need, to comfort, strengthen and guide them. There is absolutely no need for new "revelation" about the Millennium to accomplish that. 

I think we have reached the point of diminishing returns in this exchange. Until the next topic?

Edited by Islander
added the last line
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10 hours ago, Islander said:

You keep sliding into a tangent and generalizing my statements. I was, specifically, talking about the Millennium. Further, what you propose is completely hypothetical. There is absolutely nothing in scripture to sustain your position. That is the role of scripture and the Holy Spirit; to aid in time of need, to comfort, strengthen and guide them. There is absolutely no need for new "revelation" about the Millennium to accomplish that. 

I think we have reached the point of diminishing returns in this exchange. Until the next topic?

There is plenty in the words of the prophets to sustain my position. It doesn’t matter whether it is about the Millenium or the gospel in general. God can reveal what He wants to whomever He wants. That there is no “need” is not important. At a base level what we have is enough for now but as individuals progress their needs also advance.

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