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Romney gets profile in courage award


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33 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

He doesn't pretend to be conservative

I disagree.  Utah produces a lot of moderate republicans and democrats who are generally conservative.

Somewhere what it means to be conservative got moved to the right of Atila the Hun.  And don't get me started on how far the liberal side are drifting from moderation.

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52 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I have never been a big Romney supporter but I don't see how anyone can legitimately criticize him for the conclusions he came to in the impeachment proceedings.  He followed is own conscience based on the evidence presented.  He could have chosen the easy path of simply going with the party line but courage is about making hard decisions, not following the crowd and making the easy ones.  

I'm with you.  Whether or not I agree with him, I can't fault him for doing what he sincerely believed was the right thing to do.  

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Would I be banned for discussing politics if I were to point out that this award — and hence this thread — seems highly political in nature? 

Just asking. 
 

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8 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I’m sure the British would give Benedict Arnold an award too. 

Yep...definitely a Trump supporter.

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30 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Would I be banned for discussing politics if I were to point out that this award — and hence this thread — seems highly political in nature? 

Just asking. 
 

I say Nemesis should ban everyone who posted in this thread.

ETA: wait a minute...

Edited by MiserereNobis
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37 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I disagree.  Utah produces a lot of moderate republicans and democrats who are generally conservative.

Somewhere what it means to be conservative got moved to the right of Atila the Hun.  And don't get me started on how far the liberal side are drifting from moderation.

They want more socialized medicine and a livable minimum wage. All stuff that most of Europe implemented decades ago. I am not sure how you can categorize that as extremist. It is admittedly more extreme left than any presidential platform in the US in my lifetime but thankfully the propaganda arm that opposes it has been screaming “socialist”and “communist” at every opponent since the 90s so now they have no way to communicate this threat. Their hyperbole was so extreme there is no way to go further. It is like the boy who cried “werewolf” every time he saw a dog and now a slightly more threatening coyote shows up so they can only scream “werewolf” and it gets lost in the noise as business as usual. I admit I find this most amusing.

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36 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I’m sure the British would give Benedict Arnold an award too. 

And Benedict Arnold is relieved we may have candidates to replace him as the archetype of American treason and what better award could he ask for? :vader:

Edited by The Nehor
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2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I have never been a big Romney supporter but I don't see how anyone can legitimately criticize him for the conclusions he came to in the impeachment proceedings.  He followed is own conscience based on the evidence presented.  He could have chosen the easy path of simply going with the party line but courage is about making hard decisions, not following the crowd and making the easy ones.  

Which has absolutely nothing to do with giving out prizes for doing what you are paid to do. 

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

They want more socialized medicine and a livable minimum wage. All stuff that most of Europe implemented decades ago. I am not sure how you can categorize that as extremist. It is admittedly more extreme left than any presidential platform in the US in my lifetime but thankfully the propaganda arm that opposes it has been screaming “socialist”and “communist” at every opponent since the 90s so now they have no way to communicate this threat. Their hyperbole was so extreme there is no way to go further. It is like the boy who cried “werewolf” every time he saw a dog and now a slightly more threatening coyote shows up so they can only scream “werewolf” and it gets lost in the noise as business as usual. I admit I find this most amusing.

If only minimum wage and government healthcare were the only issues.  I live in Canada for a decade under a conservative government with government healthcare.  I have no issue with "socialized medicine".

But that is now a moderate position for the democrats.  The progressive wing has swung as far left as Trump supporters have swung right.  No common sense on either side.

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1 hour ago, juliann said:

Which has absolutely nothing to do with giving out prizes for doing what you are paid to do.

Ever heard of the Oscars ? 

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53 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If only minimum wage and government healthcare were the only issues.  I live in Canada for a decade under a conservative government with government healthcare.  I have no issue with "socialized medicine".

But that is now a moderate position for the democrats.  The progressive wing has swung as far left as Trump supporters have swung right.  No common sense on either side.

A moderate position? If it is moderate then why do they have to fight tooth and nail to get the moderates in their own party to support it?

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1 hour ago, juliann said:

Which has absolutely nothing to do with giving out prizes for doing what you are paid to do. 

All military medals, music awards, sporting trophies, and just about every award is given to someone who makes money doing what they get the award for. Getting an award for something you are not paid to do seems to be the exception and not the rule.

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8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

A moderate position? If it is moderate then why do they have to fight tooth and nail to get the moderates in their own party to support it?

Because they want to be reelected in their swing districts.

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11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Because they want to be reelected in their swing districts.

Pretty much means it is not moderate in that case.

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

All military medals, music awards, sporting trophies, and just about every award is given to someone who makes money doing what they get the award for. Getting an award for something you are not paid to do seems to be the exception and not the rule.

Military bravery is in a class of its own. It is a true definition of bravery. Let me know when a politician makes a decision over half the country applauds...while dodging bullets. I’ll present the award myself. The others you mention are competitions. Not at all similar. 

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Romney should have declined the award due to the treatment the Kennedys gave him about his religion earlier in his political career.  Plus, why hasn't JFK been cancelled yet?  He treated women horribly.  His name should be removed from the award.

Sad if this is the greatest example they could find for courage shown last year.  Romney didn't like Trump so it wasn't surprising he voted the way he did.  I'm sure he's probably clueless that this is more of an attempt to shame the former president rather than reward him for courage.

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7 minutes ago, gopher said:

Romney should have declined the award due to the treatment the Kennedys gave him about his religion earlier in his political career.  Plus, why hasn't JFK been cancelled yet?  He treated women horribly.  His name should be removed from the award.

Sad if this is the greatest example they could find for courage shown last year.  Romney didn't like Trump so it wasn't surprising he voted the way he did.  I'm sure he's probably clueless that this is more of an attempt to shame the former president rather than reward him for courage.

Honestly this is just sad. Every single senator knew exactly who and what the former president was. Cruz called him a 'pathological liar', 'utterly amoral', and a 'sniveling coward'. Lindsey Graham said "If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed ... and we will deserve it". The only difference between them and Romney is that Romney has morals.

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1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Honestly this is just sad. Every single senator knew exactly who and what the former president was. Cruz called him a 'pathological liar', 'utterly amoral', and a 'sniveling coward'. Lindsey Graham said "If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed ... and we will deserve it". The only difference between them and Romney is that Romney has morals.

This post provides the perfect opportunity to explain how my mind works. I’m a very analytical and logical in my thinking, and when I compose posts on this board my mind is almost always able to instantaneously spot lines of argumentation that are either weak, unsupportable or flawed. When I catch these imperfections in my arguments I’m forced to either to modify what I’ve written until it can stand up to rigorous scrutiny and logical analysis, or I abandon the idea of posting anything at all.

Here’s the imperfection in your line of argumentation that I immediately spotted in your post, something so glaringly weak that it wouldn’t have passed the muster of my mind. You see, the two quotes you provided from Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham are next to useless for two reasons 1) The quotes are quite old and both Cruz and Graham have long since modified their opinions as they went on to become strong political allies and even defenders of Trump. 2) If the opinions of Cruz and Graham from five years ago really haven’t changed, and their subsequent apparent support for him was just part of cynical self-serving ploys, it’s proof positive that both Cruz and Graham are men without moral principle who will do and say anything for their own political advantage, thus rendering their initial opinions of Trump to be, at very least, highly suspect or totally invalid

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3 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

This post provides the perfect opportunity to explain how my mind works. I’m a very analytical and logical in my thinking, and when I compose posts on this board my mind is almost always able to instantaneously spot lines of argumentation that are either weak, unsupportable or flawed. When I catch these imperfections in my arguments I’m forced to either to modify what I’ve written until it can stand up to rigorous scrutiny and logical analysis, or I abandon the idea of posting anything at all.

Here’s the imperfection in your line of argumentation that I immediately spotted in your post, something so glaringly weak that it wouldn’t have passed the muster of my mind. You see, the two quotes you provided from Ted Cruz and Lindsey Graham are next to useless for two reasons 1) The quotes are quite old and both Cruz and Graham have long since modified their opinions as they went on to become strong political allies and even defenders of Trump. 2) If the opinions of Cruz and Graham from five years ago really haven’t changed, and their subsequent apparent support for him was just part of cynical self-serving ploys, it’s proof positive that both Cruz and Graham are men without moral principle who will do and say anything for their own political advantage, thus rendering their initial opinions of Trump to be, at very least, highly suspect or totally invalid

Way too black and white. In politics you are free to speak your mind and vote your conscience. If you are principled and have morals you will continue to do so regardless of whether a position is popular with your party or base. I assume that most politicians go with truly held beliefs. At some point each has to decide when winning the next election becomes more important than sticking with what they truly know and believe. 
 

For Cruz and Graham, they clearly saw a  person who they though was dangerous. They spoke their mind. He still gets elected. Not only does he get elected, but he becomes super popular among those that voted for you. At this point you can continue your principled objection to him and possibly lose your next election or you can capitulate. 
 

The idea that people are wholly self serving and cynical all the time or wholly principled is extremely naive. Everyone is on a spectrum. 

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10 hours ago, juliann said:

Military bravery is in a class of its own. It is a true definition of bravery. Let me know when a politician makes a decision over half the country applauds...while dodging bullets. I’ll present the award myself. The others you mention are competitions. Not at all similar. 

I will let you know. For better or worse the Capitol insurrectionists never got close enough to the members of Congress for that to happen. Romney’s life was probably saved by a member of the USCP who directed him away from the terrorists who had every reason to hate Romney specifically. That guy was awarded a medal.

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3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Honestly this is just sad. Every single senator knew exactly who and what the former president was. Cruz called him a 'pathological liar', 'utterly amoral', and a 'sniveling coward'. Lindsey Graham said "If we nominate Trump, we will get destroyed ... and we will deserve it". The only difference between them and Romney is that Romney has morals.

I've worked in DC too long to believe morals factor much in decisions made by politicians.  It was a safe bet for Romney to go against Trump since he knew it wouldn't hurt him much as a Senator from Utah.  I'm not sure why you are claiming Cruz and Graham have no morals with the criticisms they made against Trump.  Don't you agree with their assessments?

Of course, there are exceptions in politics - I once walked past Ted Kennedy as he walked down the Capital steps.  His eyes were bloodshot, his face was beet red, and he was staggering, obviously drunk.  I saw him again a few years later and he looked much better.  Orrin Hatch gave a fireside in Oakton, VA where he claimed he helped to encourage Ted to get sober.  +1 for the Mormons!

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