James huntsman (jon's brother) sues church for 'fraud'

[HappyJackWagon]

28 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yeah, I guess the LDS church is more efficient than us. You've got a hedge fund (that invests in Domino's pizza!) and we've got, well, the Sistine Chapel  

You win the day! That's amazing  

[HappyJackWagon]

12 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think it's safe to say a lot of it has been, unless the regular Humanitarian Aid fund is not funded by those dollars.  And if not maybe it's a good thing to have that much set aside to use for the very, very worst of events.  Maybe calling it the Armageddon fund.

Is that safe to say? Isn't that playing into the same kinds of assumptions that others on this thread are dismissing and the actual reason Huntsman is filing the suit for fraud? I don't think its safe to assume that. And we don't know because the church isn't transparent with its finances. BTW- I don't believe the Humanitarian Aid fund is paid out of the investment fund.

How bad do things need to get to dip into that $100 billion. The last year has been a pretty epic disaster. If that doesn't qualify for a measly $1 billion dip into the investment fund it does raise questions about the church's priorities.

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Is that safe to say? Isn't that playing into the same kinds of assumptions that others on this thread are dismissing and the actual reason Huntsman is filing the suit for fraud? I don't think its safe to assume that. And we don't know because the church isn't transparent with its finances. BTW- I don't believe the Humanitarian Aid fund is paid out of the investment fund.

Okay, well, maybe it's not.  But I still think it's a good idea to set an extremely huge amount of money aside for the very, very worst of events, as Armageddon will be on a global scale.

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

How bad do things need to get to dip into that $100 billion. The last year has been a pretty epic disaster. If that doesn't qualify for a measly $1 billion dip into the investment fund it does raise questions about the church's priorities.

Armageddon bad, I think.  I'd like to see the balance in the account rise as much as possible, maybe even to $1 trillion dollars, or more.  This COVID thing will seem like nothing when compared to Armageddon.  It's going to happen, and supposedly soon.

[JLHPROF]

40 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yeah, I guess the LDS church is more efficient than us. You've got a hedge fund (that invests in Domino's pizza!) and we've got, well, the Sistine Chapel  

Maybe you can convince the pope to renovate the Sistine Chapel, whitewash all the murals, and that wild ceiling and put in a few movie screens.
Much more efficient.

[Fly Fisherman]

45 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yeah, I guess the LDS church is more efficient than us. You've got a hedge fund (that invests in Domino's pizza!) and we've got, well, the Sistine Chapel  

And St. Peter's Basilica, and the Milano D'Uomo, and 1,000s of other incredible, awesome, and amazing structures of the Catholic Church. I served my mission in Italy, and just loved everything about it. These were truly remarkable and amazing sites to see. Can't wait to get back!

[HappyJackWagon]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Okay, well, maybe it's not.  But I still think it's a good idea to set an extremely huge amount of money aside for the very, very worst of events, as Armageddon will be on a global scale.

Armageddon bad, I think.  I'd like to see the balance in the account rise as much as possible, maybe even to $1 trillion dollars, or more.  This COVID thing will seem like nothing when compared to Armageddon.  It's going to happen, and supposedly soon.

I think there is a lesson we can learn from the Bible (if we are to take it literally or even just figuratively). When Joseph of Egypt had his dream about 7 years of plenty and 7 years of famine, how much did he have Egypt store? Did he save up for 50 years of famine, just in case? Nope. Saving too much and being miserly is just a different problem than spending too much and not being prepared. But it's still a problem.

[Ahab]

23 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I think there is a lesson we can learn from the Bible (if we are to take it literally or even just figuratively). When Joseph of Egypt had his dream about 7 years of plenty and 7 years of famine, how much did he have Egypt store? Did he save up for 50 years of famine, just in case? Nope. Saving too much and being miserly is just a different problem than spending too much and not being prepared. But it's still a problem.

Joseph knew the famine in Egypt would last for only 7 years.  Our Lord's return will commence a 1,000 year reign on this planet before the planet becomes another celestial world, fit for our Father to come here to live on occasions.

So 7 years vs 1,000 years.  And the infrastructure of Egypt, which included Babylon, wasn't affected during those 7 years unlike how the whole world will be affected by Armageddon.

Edited March 24, 2021 by Ahab

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Joseph knew the famine in Egypt would last for only 7 years.  Our Lord's return commence a 1,000 year reign on this planet before the planet becomes another celestial world, fit for our Father to come here to live on occasions.

So 7 years vs 1,000 years.  And the infrastructure of Egypt, which included Babylon, wasn't affected during those 7 years unlike how the whole world will be affected by Armageddon.

1- So God is going to need money to run the millennium? Maybe he could just raise taxes 

2- I suppose it's true we don't know when the funds will be needed like Joseph did. If only we had a prophet, similar to Joseph, who could prophesy such things and then prepare us accordingly.

 

Sorry for the excessive snark.   

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, ttribe said:

Ummm, what?

 

Brigham Young:

“When the day comes in which the Kingdom of God will bear rule, the flag of the United States will proudly flutter unsullied on the flag staff of liberty and equal rights, without a spot to sully its fair surface; the glorious flag our fathers have bequeathed to us will then be unfurled to the breeze by those who have power to hoist it aloft and defend its sanctity.” (Journal of Discourses 2:317)

[HappyJackWagon]

Just now, teddyaware said:

Brigham Young:

“When the day comes in which the Kingdom of God will bear rule, the flag of the United States will proudly flutter unsullied on the flag staff of liberty and equal rights, without a spot to sully its fair surface; the glorious flag our fathers have bequeathed to us will then be unfurled to the breeze by those who have power to hoist it aloft and defend its sanctity.” (Journal of Discourses 2:317)

Thanks for sharing.

Are we to take the Journal of Discourses as gospel?

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

All I know is that $100 billion today doesn't buy what it used to buy.  It isn't as much power to do things as it used to be.  And come a catastrophe even worse than all the world is currently going through now, we don't really know how much money we'll need.

Fortunately we also have over a million acres of property too.  That's bigger than Rhode Island.  It would be a tight squeeze, but we could fit the entire US Church membership on Church property.

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

CFR-  I've never heard that. Can you share your source?

Brigham Young:

”When the day comes in which the Kingdom of God will bear rule, the flag of the United States will proudly flutter unsullied on the flag staff of liberty and equal rights, without a spot to sully its fair surface; the glorious flag our fathers have bequeathed to us will then be unfurled to the breeze by those who have power to hoist it aloft and defend its sanctity.” (Journal of Discourses 2:317)

[JustAnAustralian]

4 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Building a mall and providing funds to an insurance company sounds like acceptable use for charitable/religious funds?

If spending $X will result in the church getting back more than $X, and thus allowing more than the original amount to be spent on religious purposes, then I would argue that it's a wise use of the funds.

 

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, teddyaware said:

Brigham Young:

”When the day comes in which the Kingdom of God will bear rule, the flag of the United States will proudly flutter unsullied on the flag staff of liberty and equal rights, without a spot to sully its fair surface; the glorious flag our fathers have bequeathed to us will then be unfurled to the breeze by those who have power to hoist it aloft and defend its sanctity.” (Journal of Discourses 2:317)

Hmmmmm, do you believe everything Brigham Young said in the JoD, or just the stuff that dovetails with your political and social views?

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

1- So God is going to need money to run the millennium? Maybe he could just raise taxes 

Unless people are willing to work for free.  All people, including others who are not members of the Church.  And in the Church we call taxes tithing, which is set at a fixed rate of 10% of however much money we get.

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

2- I suppose it's true we don't know when the funds will be needed like Joseph did. If only we had a prophet, similar to Joseph, who could prophesy such things and then prepare us accordingly.

I think each one takes everything our Lord reveals into consideration.  Our Lord needs to reveal things to them, though, to let them know what our Lord is thinking and planning, and I don't think even he knows when our Father will tell him to come.

4 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Sorry for the excessive snark.   

Excessive?  I didn't notice.  I generally enjoy snarkiness as well as the next guy so it's hard for me to imagine someone being excessively snarky.

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Brigham Young:

“When the day comes in which the Kingdom of God will bear rule, the flag of the United States will proudly flutter unsullied on the flag staff of liberty and equal rights, without a spot to sully its fair surface; the glorious flag our fathers have bequeathed to us will then be unfurled to the breeze by those who have power to hoist it aloft and defend its sanctity.” (Journal of Discourses 2:317)

I don't much care what flag design flies.
But the United States will end like all other nations.  Maybe Brigham was right but who knows.  After all, he himself was familiar with a different flag of the Kingdom of God.




https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-87-war-in-the-last-days?lang=eng
 

D&C 87:6. Will All Nations Be Destroyed?

Elder James E. Talmage taught: “Now, I do not believe in trying to explain away the words of God that predict calamity, but are nevertheless full of assurance unto the righteous, be it a righteous man or a righteous nation. We should awaken to their dread import. The Lord is dealing with the nations of the earth, and his Spirit has departed in large measure from nations that have defied him and his commandments, and as a result, they, being left largely to themselves, war with one another, and seek all means by which they can destroy one another most expeditiously. Now, the Lord is not the author of these evil things; the nations are bringing these inflictions upon themselves, and there shall be a consummation brought about as the Lord hath decreed, which shall mean an end of all nations as such, if they will not observe the law and the commandments of the Lord their God.” (In Conference Report, Oct. 1923, p. 54.)

In the judgments that precede the Millennium, all earthly kingdoms will come to an end and the kingdom of God will triumph and become the one political power during the thousand years of peace and righteousness (see Revelation 11:15).

 

[HappyJackWagon]

6 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Unless people are willing to work for free.  All people, including others who are not members of the Church.  And in the Church we call taxes tithing, which is set at a fixed rate of 10% of however much money we get.

I think each one takes everything our Lord reveals into consideration.  Our Lord needs to reveal things to them, though, to let them know what our Lord is thinking and planning, and I don't think even he knows when our Father will tell him to come.

Excessive?  I didn't notice.  I generally enjoy snarkiness as well as the next guy so it's hard for me to imagine someone being excessively snarky.

If the United Order can't work during the Millennium, I'm not sure when it ever could.

 

[Ahab]

14 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Fortunately we also have over a million acres of property too.  That's bigger than Rhode Island.  It would be a tight squeeze, but we could fit the entire US Church membership on Church property.

Yeah but other governments will still probably require the Church to pay taxes on their property.  Unless other governments don't require that from the Church during or after Armageddon.  Which they may not, maybe.

All other government leaders may be like: Oh, you are his people?  Well we know better than to mess with him or his people.  No taxes required from any of you anymore.  Is there anything else you would like?  We'll be happy to just give it to you.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do you mind clarifying this? Earlier in thread some posters pointed out that there would not be a democracy at the second coming of Christ.

The Lord inspired the the Founding Fathers to create the Constitution of the United States not just as the system of government for America but to be the system of government for the entire world. The entire earth will be governed under the law of the Constitution of the United States during the Millennial reign of Christ. The following words of the Lord Jesus Christ clearly sets forth the verity that the Constitution was designed by a loving and just God .

77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of ALL FLESH, according to just and holy principles; (D&C 101)

further...

 

5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to ALL MANKIND, and is justifiable before me.

6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

7 And as pertaining to law of man, WHATSOEVER IS MORE OR LESS THAN THIS COMETH OF EVI. (D&C 98)

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If the United Order can't work during the Millennium, I'm not sure when it ever could.

 

When our Lord is personally reigning on this planet during and after Armageddon would probably be a good time to try again.

[Analytics]

Out of curiosity, do you think we will still have the three co-equal branches of government in the millennium, basically unchanged from now? Or will there be a series of constitutional amendments to get rid of legislators and presidents and replace them with a theocratic monarchy led by Jesus? 

[Stormin' Mormon]

9 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

If the United Order can't work during the Millennium, I'm not sure when it ever could.

 

The way I understand it, the Millennium will only be an upgrade from our current Telestial world to a more righteous Terrestrial world.  We shouldn't expect a world living a Celestial law until after the Millennium. 

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, teddyaware said:

The entire earth will be governed under the law of the Constitution of the United States during the Millennial reign of Christ.

Wait, so the United States is the true One World Order? Who knew?  

Seriously, though, how is this going to work? How does Jesus Christ reign under the US constitution?

[teddyaware]

19 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Hmmmmm, do you believe everything Brigham Young said in the JoD, or just the stuff that dovetails with your political and social views?

I believe this quote from Brigham Young is true because it harmonizes with the Lord’s pronouncements in the Doctrine and Covenants...

77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of ALL FLESH, according to just and holy principles; (D&C 101)

further...

 

5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to ALL MANKIND, and is justifiable before me.

6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

7 And as pertaining to law of man, WHATSOEVER IS MORE OR LESS THAN THIS COMETH OF EVI. (D&C 98)

[Bob Crockett]

 

16 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I believe this quote from Brigham Young is true because it harmonizes with the Lord’s pronouncements in the Doctrine and Covenants...

 

 

77 According to the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of ALL FLESH, according to just and holy principles; (D&C 101)

further...

 

5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to ALL MANKIND, and is justifiable before me.

6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

7 And as pertaining to law of man, WHATSOEVER IS MORE OR LESS THAN THIS COMETH OF EVI. (D&C 98)

Need to compare this balogna with all the threats BY made against Congress and the President, including to assassinate Buchanan.  He went to war against the United States.  Who else has done that on domestic soil?  The Confederacy?  Brigham Young stepped across the Mexican border into the Salt Lake Valley precisely because he thought so ill of the United States government.    The reality is that the Church is an international church and does not particularly respect any government other than to be a good citizen.

In front of Brigham Young, Apostle Heber C. Kimball (a menber of the presidency) declared: "I will fight until there is not a drop of blood in my veins. Good God! I have wives enough to whip out the United States." 

Brigham Young mustered out the Nauvoo Militia precisely to fight the United States Army.  Buchanan labeled the Church's efforts as "seditious and treasonous" in his proclamation of pardon.  

Edited March 24, 2021 by Bob Crockett