Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Yes... Johnny...Thats another Rhetorically "true" question. God is reminding Job of an event that he participated in... something he had forgot.Pehaps you better take a course on Rhetoric?Do you think the theology is that:- Job was the first man that born (15:7)- Job was made before the hills (15:7)- Job has heard the secrets of God (15:- that the consolations of God are small with Job (15:11)Course not....1) Adam/Michael was the first man Born2) No Adam/Michael is older than the hills3) Adam/Michael Did because he was among the Morning Stars that sang.4) Huh?But dont you understand? We where all there too?Heb 79 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.Hmm... Levi wasn't even in the womb yet... and he payed tithing. How is that possible unless he... "Preexisted"? Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes,Thats another Rhetorically "true" question. God is reminding Job of an event that he participated in... something he had forgot.Why do you say God is reminding him ... Eliphaz is asking Job these questions.1) Adam/Michael was the first man BornJob 15 is not talking about Adam.2) No Adam/Michael is older than the hillsMichael the Archangel is older than the hills. Adam is not. Adam is not Michael the Archangel.3) Adam/Michael Did because he was among the Morning Stars that sang.Michael was among the Morning Stars. Adam was not among the Morning Stars.But dont you understand? We where all there too?The bible does not reveal that you and me were part of the Morning Stars.Hmm... Levi wasn't even in the womb yet... and he payed tithing. How is that possible unless he... "Preexisted"? The words "still in the loins of his father" does not indicate pre-existence. They paid tithes while they were on earth.Heb.7[1] For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;[2] To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;[3] Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.[4] Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.[5] And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:[6] But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.[7] And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.[8] And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.[9] And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.[10] For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.[11] If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?[12] For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.[13] For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Why do you say God is reminding him ... Eliphaz is asking Job these questions.And who is Eliphaz... but Gods mouth peace? or are you saying this isnt God breathed?Job 15 is not talking about Adam.Its not... who was the "first man"? Eliphaz is making direct reference to Adam.Michael the Archangel is older than the hills. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes,And who is Eliphaz... but Gods mouth peace? or are you saying this isnt God breathed?I am saying the context of the verses is that a man is asking Job questions.Its not... who was the "first man"? Eliphaz is making direct reference to Adam.He is implying that Job is not the "first man" with his question.If Micheal is Adam then Adam he was too.Michael is not Adam and Adam is not Michael.Yes it does... Gen 2:1Gen 2:1 simply says "host" ... "hosts" can also be a reference to angels like Michael the archangel.it doesnt?It indicates he was not yet born. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 He is implying that Job is not the "first man" with his question.Exactly... and this first man was "born".Michael is not Adam and Adam is not Michael.Course he is... Michael is the Name of Adams "breath of Life" that pre-exhisted with God before the hills where made.Gen 2:1 simply says "host" ... "hosts" can also be a reference to angels like Michael the archangel.Except for the fact that its the "hosts" of both heaven and earth and they preexisted the physical creation of the earth.It indicates he was not yet born.Yes... and how could he pay tithes unless his "breath of life" was in existance with his father before he was introduced into his mothers womb? Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes,Course he is... Michael is the Name of Adams "breath of Life" that pre-exhisted with God before the hills where made.And of course I would differ ... When does man become a living soul ... is it before or after "the breath of life"?Gen.2[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 When the spirit ("Breath of Life") enters his body yes thats when a Man becomes a living soul.But the "Breath of life" existed with God prior to being poured into the clay. Similarly... the seed existed prior to being sown into the soil. Link to comment
urroner Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 A soul can be defined as both the body and the spirit together. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes,When the spirit ("Breath of Life") enters his body yes thats when a Man becomes a living soul.You say man becomes a living soul after the "breath of life" enters his body ... why is that the LDS scripture (Abr 3:23) reveal that a soul is before the "breath of life"? Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Translation.You'll notice that the Bible authors get things confused as well.1 Cor. 15: 45 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.1 Thes. 5: 23 23 And the very God of peace asanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.Heb. 4: 12 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged csword, dpiercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and hintents of the heart.1 Pet. 1: 22 22 Seeing ye have apurified your bsouls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye dlove one another with a pure heart fervently: Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes,You'll notice that the Bible authors get things confused as well.Does the Strongs's lexicon get it confused also ... it says?1 ) soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passiona ) that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of manb ) living beingc ) living being (with life in the blood)d ) the man himself, self, person or individuale ) seat of the appetitesf ) seat of emotions and passionsg ) activity of mind1 ) dubioush ) activity of the will1 ) dubiousi ) activity of the character1 ) dubious Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Mark 15: 37 37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.Hmm... mans inner being is a Ghost?Luke 2436 Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes,Hmm... mans inner being is a Ghost?What is your point man is spirit and body.Would not context dictate spirit be translated as Ghost? Again what is your point ... man is spirit and body.Mormon scripture reveals that a soul is before being born. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Its a poor choice of words in translation. Alas... Showing even when rought upon by the spirit... Man is not Gods sock puppet and can make mistakes.You still havent shown us how the "being" or "spirit" inside man did not pre-exist with God.You say it was created immediatley.I say it was enternal as was God otherwise it will have an end and cannot be eternal and our faith is vain. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes,You still havent shown us how the "being" or "spirit" inside man did not pre-exist with God. What I have shown and what you agreed with is that man becomes a living soul after "the breath of life". Mormon scripture reveals a soul before "the breath of life"."the breath of life" comes when the Lord breathes it.Gen.2[7] And the LORD God ... breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 And Ive shown you how loosely the term "Soul" is thrown around in scripture.Yes.. God gave this "breath of Life" it was part of him and existed with him for all eternity.When we die... it/we returns to him from whence we came.Eccl. 12: 7 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes,And Ive shown you how loosely the term "Soul" is thrown around in scripture.Are you saying that Mormon scripture are loose in their usage of words like "soul"?Yes.. God gave this "breath of Life" it was part of him and existed with him for all eternity.You say it was part of him ... do you mean that all these Mormon souls are inside him and he breathes them out?When we die... it/we returns to him from whence we came.Clearly the breath of a dead person does not return to dust. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Are you saying that Mormon scripture are loose in their usage of words like "soul"?The book is only as good as its translator. The Bible is part of Mormon cannon so yes I suppose you could say that.And lest yea turn and rend me... The BOM contains this disclaimer:And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.You say it was part of him ... do you mean that all these Mormon souls are inside him and he breathes them out?The spirits of all men where with God prior to the foundation of the earth.Ever here of the Jewish term... the well of souls?Clearly the breath of a dead person does not return to dust.Did I say the breath?The Breath return to God who gave it. The body returns to dust. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes,The spirits of all men where with God prior to the foundation of the earth.Again I ask ... are all Mormon souls inside God and he breathes them out? ... sounds like the Mormon God is rather large in size and bigger than a normal man.The Breath return to God who gave it. The body returns to dust. God gives us the breath in our lungs. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes,The spirits of all men where with God prior to the foundation of the earth.Again I ask ... are all Mormon souls inside God and he breathes them out? ... sounds like the Mormon God is rather large in size and bigger than a normal man.Zech. 12: 1 1 THE burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.You decide.Where there not Giants in the land?http://www.stevequayle.com/books/gen6cover.htmlhttp://www.genesispark.com/genpark/giant/giant.htmThe Breath return to God who gave it. The body returns to dust. God gives us the breath in our lungs.A no.... God puts our spirit in our body and our spirit makes our lungs draw in air and the little sacks in our lungs draw in oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes,Zech. 12: 1 ... formeth the spirit of man within him.That is exactly my point ... he forms ... it is immediate.A no.... God puts our spirit in our body and our spirit makes our lungs draw in air and the little sacks in our lungs draw in oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide.Gen 2:7 says God put breath into a body ... God breath's into a man's body ... or do you believe that all Mormon souls are inside the Mormon God and he breathes them out. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 YLT,Zec 12:1 The burden of a word of Jehovah on Israel. An affirmation of Jehovah, Stretching out heaven, and founding earth, And forming the spirit of man in his midst.Latin vulgatZec 12:1 onus verbi Domini super Israhel dixit Dominus extendens caelum et fundans terram et fingens spiritum hominis in eo Link to comment
johnny Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 Zakuska writes,What is the "him" in relation to? God... (ie within God). Or... Mans spirit within Man. What is "formeth" in Zech 12:1 ... doesn't sound like what you are describing in that Mormon souls are inside a Mormon God and he breathes them out. Link to comment
Zakuska Posted March 23, 2005 Share Posted March 23, 2005 "Breathing out" is a metpahor. As breath is for spirit.The mechanism is not given.What God makes is eternal. And it has always existed. Link to comment
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