Jump to content

Should Elder Uchtdorf step down?


Recommended Posts

53 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm still not sure why Joseph's polygamy troubled you more than the six polygamous prophets that followed him or the eternal polygamous sealings by several prophets after that.

Why was Joseph's more an issue than John Taylor's, Wilford Woodruff's, or Heber J. Grant's?

Perhaps because he lied about it so much?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Just now, ttribe said:

Perhaps because he lied about it so much?

They all did in Nauvoo.

Link to post
1 minute ago, ttribe said:

So?

So why is Joseph the testimony breaker?  We're ok with Brigham but not Joseph doing it?

Edited by JLHPROF
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
2 hours ago, gopher said:

Don't you think the outrage would be much more vocal and angry if it turned out he donated money to the other guy?

Depends on what forum you were looking at. 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So why is Joseph the testimony breaker?  We're ok with Brigham but not Joseph doing it?

I can't speak to her specific reasons, but I have spoken with many who feel betrayed by the manner in which he practiced polygamy (Fanny Alger, coercion, sending men on missions and then taking their wives, etc.) more so than the fact that he practiced it at all.  That being said, when I was a believer I would have made the same statement you did; I get your point.

  • Like 2
Link to post
2 hours ago, rpn said:

You don't resign from apostleship.   Once you're called you're that until you get honorably released by death.

That isn't true; apostles have been removed before or dropped from the quorum --- with or without excommunication. I'm not saying that this rises or should rise to that at all, but resignation or removal of apostles is hypothetically possible, just as it is for seventies.  

2 hours ago, rpn said:

And it wasn't Elder Uchtdorf (I'm betting that it was his kids or grandkids, hopefully ones born  in the US or a citizen because if not they are foreign nationals they would be breaking federal election laws by contributing: his wife would have known not to do it too). 

Nobody here knows who did it, and neither do you. Several here have said (surprisingly, to me) that it was probably his wife Harriett, and he "white lied" for her to save her embarrassment. Nobody knows that, either. All we know is that eleven donations took place via the account in his name over the last several months. If it was his wife or children/grandchildren, I think that is a technical violation of transparency/straw donor laws (whether witting or unwitting). Donors are supposed to identify themselves so that they can't exceed limits, and donating under someone else's name obviously skirts that. 

I still find it interesting that he has a political donation account in his name after the 2011 policy prohibiting that. And, I'm sure the couple (and their children/grandchildren) aren't oblivious about "just using someone else's account" for eleven political donations. The terse "oversight" apology is good damage control (good economy of words and explanation), and I don't think anything else will be said about it. 

Link to post
1 hour ago, gurn said:

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like it might be illegal with civil and criminal penalties.

https://www.fec.gov/updates/contributions-in-the-name-of-another-are-strictly-prohibited/ 

Let's see how much bad publicity the Federal Election Commission is willing to tolerate if the agency's powers-that-be elect to prosecute.

Link to post
9 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I think a more important question is, has Elder Uchtdorf dammed himself by committing the unpardonable sin of denying the spirt of the Holy Republicanism?

There’s always repentance.  

Until then, I need a new favorite apostle.

 

Edited by Rivers
Add
Link to post
3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

So why is Joseph the testimony breaker?  We're ok with Brigham but not Joseph doing it?

Because all my naive life I didn't know polygamy was a commandment to live. And I was in and out of different callings that took me out of Gospel Doctrine class and never sat through a lesson in D&C 132. Or I hated to study the scriptures... preferred to read the Ensign cover to cover. And grew up believing polygamy was to take care of the widows across the plains. Was only aware of BY and those after him. Even devoured most of the "Work and the Glory" series where it mentioned he was commanded to live it but didn't go into him actually living it. In my mid forties or around 2005, a website popped up with a list and a short story of each of Joseph's wives and I felt like you do when you're in an accident and everything is in slow motion, in a state of shock. And after that I read everything I could about polygamy and the book, "In Sacred Lonliness". You see if I'd grown up hearing about him living it all my life I'd probably not look into it much. It was in the details that caused me to take Joseph off the pedestal I had put him on and finding out a lot of other things I was taught, was wrong. 

Link to post
4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

So why is Joseph the testimony breaker?  We're ok with Brigham but not Joseph doing it?

My husband was a convert at 20 and it did matter to him. He asked specifically and the missionaries assured him that polygamy started with Brigham Young.

Perhaps it is easier to believe the Restoration happened if is not inextricably connected to polygamy.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
6 hours ago, ttribe said:

Perhaps because he lied about it so much?

Perhaps there were reasons to lie.  I don't believe lying is always wrong. In fact there may be many situations where lying might be required.  I believe that if someone wants to be told the truth, they need to be mature to handle it in the right way.  If telling the truth might lead to danger, harm, injustice, ect, then lying is probably the best policy to keep the peace or maintain safety.  Some people may not deserve to know the truth.  They can't handle it.

Link to post
5 hours ago, gurn said:

I'm no lawyer, but it looks like it might be illegal with civil and criminal penalties.

https://www.fec.gov/updates/contributions-in-the-name-of-another-are-strictly-prohibited/ 

Most likely nothing will happen.  It is all about intent.  If it was an innocent mistake, little will be done.  Sort of like making mistakes on taxes.  An innocent mistake will have minor consequence at best.  Intentional stuff will get you in big trouble.

Link to post
1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

Perhaps there were reasons to lie.  I don't believe lying is always wrong. In fact there may be many situations where lying might be required.  I believe that if someone wants to be told the truth, they need to be mature to handle it in the right way.  If telling the truth might lead to danger, harm, injustice, ect, then lying is probably the best policy to keep the peace or maintain safety.  Some people may not deserve to know the truth.  They can't handle it.

For my husband he was lied to by the modern church about Joseph's polygamy. I think that for many, that also plays a role.

For me, I grew up with an awareness of Joseph lying about polygamy and thought of it as possibly justified. I saw the situation differently after personally experiencing being lied to extensively over a long period about important things. After that, I saw Joseph's deceptions not just as justified lying but as part of an unacceptable habitual pattern of abuse. 

Link to post
16 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Well, I was being a bit facetious, but it does make me happy that there may be some more moderate-leaning people at the top, even if it’s “just” the wife of an apostle. Of course, we don’t know if it was her, either. I really think it is much ado about nothing, and no, he should not step down. 

I don't want to drag this into politics any more than it already is, but you may need to be more aware of how it sounds when you write "...more moderate-leaning people..." when writing about someone who donates to Democrat candidates. This implies that you think Democrats are somehow "moderate" and perhaps that Republicans are extremists. I can assure you that there are extremists in both parties. And of course those extremists love to label their opponents as extremists, just as they buff their nails in pride at their own "moderation".

Edited by Stargazer
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

My husband was a convert at 20 and it did matter to him. He asked specifically and the missionaries assured him that polygamy started with Brigham Young.

In all fairness to the missionaries they probably believed that.  Even in the Church today there are many young people (and older people too) who know next to nothing about the topic.

Missionaries are hardly gospel authorities.

  • Like 1
Link to post
18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

In all fairness to the missionaries they probably believed that.  Even in the Church today there are many young people (and older people too) who know next to nothing about the topic.

Missionaries are hardly gospel authorities.

Oh, sure, I can believe that the missionaries believed that. But I do think it is reasonable to conclude that as church representatives they shared intentional falsehoods perpetuated by the church. I do not think those institutional deceptions were accidental. At some point--starting with Joseph Smith himself--or many points in the chain, there was intent to deceive.

Edited by Meadowchik
Link to post
14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

So why is Joseph the testimony breaker?  We're ok with Brigham but not Joseph doing it?

 

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Because all my naive life I didn't know polygamy was a commandment to live. And I was in and out of different callings that took me out of Gospel Doctrine class and never sat through a lesson in D&C 132. Or I hated to study the scriptures... preferred to read the Ensign cover to cover. And grew up believing polygamy was to take care of the widows across the plains. Was only aware of BY and those after him. Even devoured most of the "Work and the Glory" series where it mentioned he was commanded to live it but didn't go into him actually living it. In my mid forties or around 2005, a website popped up with a list and a short story of each of Joseph's wives and I felt like you do when you're in an accident and everything is in slow motion, in a state of shock. And after that I read everything I could about polygamy and the book, "In Sacred Lonliness". You see if I'd grown up hearing about him living it all my life I'd probably not look into it much. It was in the details that caused me to take Joseph off the pedestal I had put him on and finding out a lot of other things I was taught, was wrong. 

I also learned about Joseph's plural wives later in life, but it was more of a relief than anything else.  It never seem right that something as big as polygamy would be revealed through and put into practice by BY and not through the prophet of the restoration.

  • Like 2
Link to post
10 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

My husband was a convert at 20 and it did matter to him. He asked specifically and the missionaries assured him that polygamy started with Brigham Young.

Perhaps it is easier to believe the Restoration happened if is not inextricably connected to polygamy.

Don't most people who claim to believe in the Restoration believe that God revealed that to them?  Does your husband believe God also lied to him by telling him JS was His prophet?  Or did he only believe what the missionaries told him without any confirmation from the Holy Ghost?  Polygamy is one of many things that are difficult to believe in the restored church without some reassurances from God.

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
1 minute ago, gopher said:

Don't most people who claim to believe in the Restoration believe that God revealed that to them? 

Do they?

 

2 minutes ago, gopher said:

Does your husband believe God also lied to him by telling him JS was His prophet?  Or did he only believe what the missionaries told him without any confirmation from the Holy Ghost?  Polygamy is one of many things that are difficult to believe in the restored church without some reassurances from God.

I think like with any spiritual test, facts were important to him too, along with feelings. 

Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...