Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 In just over a month, I will mark my 42 years as a member of, “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”. During this time, my life has been greatly enriched, both Spiritually and Temporally. Spiritually because of the “fullness of the Everlasting Gospel”, and Temporally because the Church concerns itself with those things that are designed to aid us in this life as well. Be it teachings concerning “food storage”, being “self reliant”, and giving clear direction to sustained throughout our earthly existence. Also, when needed, it has, and will even help us in great times of need, when suffering difficulties that are common to most of our mortal experiences. Because of this I have learned to listen and obey (even when at times I did not fully understand, the why), and to “Follow the Prophet”. Our children are taught to “Follow the Prophet”, from their earliest memories, but for those like myself who joined as adults (if the age of 21 is truly adult enough), as this is one of the most important tenants of our Faith. But early own, due to my love of study, and “Feasting upon the Word”, I was able to learn much early on. But also because of the wonderful people in our small, “Military Brach”, in (then) West Germany, who were able to teach and guide me during that learning process. I also had the wonderful experience to be, Sealed n the Swiss Temple”, with these same wonderful friends, who were able to teach me about this as well. A “process of learning”, that has continued, and does continue to occur within my life. I think that my early, baptism, membership, and education taking place in such a small Branch, aided me in not, “falling through the cracks”, that happens far too often, in much larger Wards, in areas when the Church is well established today, and elsewhere in the world. But, this is enough for the background, before I get into the more important questions, and discussion, concerning the “Threads Title”. Starting this weekend, I will begin the process I go through each year. I will begin watching each, General Conference Sermon, from last October’s recordings, (maybe even in from last April as well) to prepare myself for General Conference, that is just three weekends away. I do this to help me keep on corse, for my goals then, to prepare for what my goals will be soon. I am, and always have been a vest “Conservative” follower of Scripture, and the counsel of our Leaders, both past and present. I use the word “Conservative”, not as a “political term”, so please no comparison. I mean that I do my best, and some times I do great, and others I am weak, but I don’t listen to Conference Addresses, and seek to just view this as guidelines up to interpretation, but both believe what I am taught, and seek to put it into practice. I have noticed a trend over the years of many who wish to read into, or just pick and choose as to what is to be believed, and what is more (or the most) important. My may need to update this post more, as my IPad May soon die, but to a couple of statements, and important questions. One example is, “The Family” A Proclamation to the World”, I view it literally the Word of God”, and wonder, “should it not be a part of our “open canon”, but f not, I don’t believe it is open to interpretation. I know it goes against much of changing “social norms”, but it is not only “Scripturally based”, but contains unique “Latter-day Saint doctrine”, concerning our views of “pre-earth existence”, and other teachings in our “Standard Works”. I have know some who have wished it to never become doctrine. One question, Have many Latter-day Saints began to accept, or reject (more often than in the past) the words of our Living Prophet, or Prophet’s, because of such fast moving “social norms”? Where do members here feel concerning today’s teachings, our views, or where you see us moving as a “body of believers”. Battery about to die, so I will add if needed, but I seek your answers from those here, so please contribute if you will. 1 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted March 13, 2021 Share Posted March 13, 2021 42 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: ......................... Starting this weekend, I will begin the process I go through each year. I will begin watching each, General Conference Sermon, from last October’s recordings, (maybe even in from last April as well) to prepare myself for General Conference, that is just three weekends away. I do this to help me keep on corse, for my goals then, to prepare for what my goals will be soon. I am, and always have been a vest “Conservative” follower of Scripture, and the counsel of our Leaders, both past and present. I use the word “Conservative”, not as a “political term”, so please no comparison. I mean that I do my best, and some times I do great, and others I am weak, but I don’t listen to Conference Addresses, and seek to just view this as guidelines up to interpretation, but both believe what I am taught, and seek to put it into practice. It is true, and I have found in practice, that doing your homework brings success in university classes, and it seems like that is what you are doing. Also, interpretation is what all of us do when we read or hear any kind of message. That is unavoidable. Hopefully, we interpret with the power of the Holy Spirit, but none of us has perfect understanding -- even with help. 42 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: I have noticed a trend over the years of many who wish to read into, or just pick and choose as to what is to be believed, and what is more (or the most) important. .............. Don't be too hard on the many members who listen especially well to some messages from the Brethren, and not necessarily to others. Some actually need to hear particular messages, and others not so much. Then too, some messages give us a lift or make us think, and that is actually good enough. Picking and choosing what seems most important or relevant is what we humans do. Not necessarily a bad t thing. 42 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: One example is, “The Family” A Proclamation to the World”, I view it literally the Word of God”, and wonder, “should it not be a part of our “open canon”, but f not, I don’t believe it is open to interpretation. I know it goes against much of changing “social norms”, but it is not only “Scripturally based”, but contains unique “Latter-day Saint doctrine”, concerning our views of “pre-earth existence”, and other teachings in our “Standard Works”. I have know some who have wished it to never become doctrine. One question, Have many Latter-day Saints began to accept, or reject (more often than in the past) the words of our Living Prophet, or Prophet’s, because of such fast moving “social norms”? Brother Brigham peferred that members not blindly accept his views, but to ask God whether his views were correct -- in order to receive their own testimonies. When, for example, Brigham put forth racist views about Black people, and his Adam-God theory, senior Apostle Orson Pratt strongly opposed him on both counts. As punishment, Brigham removed Pratt's seniority in the Quorum of the Twelve. Yet today it is Orson Pratt's views on these matters which are official LDS doctrine. 42 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: Where do members here feel concerning today’s teachings, our views, or where you see us moving as a “body of believers”. ......................... LDS members appear to me to be united and faithful, a strong body of believers. 2 Link to comment
Rivers Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 The more I see the social norms go down a slippery slope of insanity, the more grateful I am for our wise leaders. 3 Link to comment
AtlanticMike Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 6 hours ago, Rivers said: The more I see the social norms go down a slippery slope of insanity, the more grateful I am for our wise leaders. Do you think we need to be doing more as a church to spread the gospel message? Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 22 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: One question, Have many Latter-day Saints began to accept, or reject (more often than in the past) the words of our Living Prophet, or Prophet’s, because of such fast moving “social norms”? Where do members here feel concerning today’s teachings, our views, or where you see us moving as a “body of believers”. I think there has been a swing. In the 1800s people followed the prophets faithfully but there seemed to be more room for individual thinking on gospel topics by members. In the 1900s, especially mid to late century follow the prophet trumped everything, and the general membership didn't even want to consider anything that wasn't correlated, lesson manual approved, and General Conference taught. Then the internet hit. Members still follow the prophet, but there is a lot more outside the box thinking and non-correlated ideas among members. As far as social norms we'd be naive to think our leaders are immune. We'll follow them too, just at a snail's pace. Link to comment
california boy Posted March 14, 2021 Share Posted March 14, 2021 (edited) On 3/13/2021 at 9:01 AM, Bill “Papa” Lee said: One example is, “The Family” A Proclamation to the World”, I view it literally the Word of God”, and wonder, “should it not be a part of our “open canon”, but f not, I don’t believe it is open to interpretation. I know it goes against much of changing “social norms”, but it is not only “Scripturally based”, but contains unique “Latter-day Saint doctrine”, concerning our views of “pre-earth existence”, and other teachings in our “Standard Works”. I have know some who have wished it to never become doctrine. It seems like as time goes by, there is this increasing belief that "The Family" A Proclamation to the World" was some kind of prophetic statement came out of nowhere that foresaw the future. In reality the Proclamation was just the first of many volleys against gay marriage. Its development was a natural outcome of what was going on at the time. Let's look at a few facts. Back in 1980, the Church first published an article trying to scare people about what the ERA would do claiming that if the ERA was passed, then gay marriage would surely follow. It didn't pass. Gay marriage still happened. In 1984, Elder Oaks wrote a memorandum to Church leaders warning them that legally, gay marriage was a real possibility. Having clerked for the Supreme Court and being a smart man, he knew that the Constitution guaranteed equal protection under the law. It was only a matter of time. That same year, he was called to be an apostle. Part of that memorandum said this. Quote In my opinion, the interests at stake in the proposed legalization of so-called homosexual marriages are sufficient to justify a formal Church position and significant efforts in opposition. Such a position could take the following points, which are stated here in secular terms appropriate for public debate on proposed legislation… (1) We speak in defense of the family, which is the bulwark of society. (2) The legal rights conferred on marriage partners are granted in consideration of the procreative purpose and effects of a marriage between a man and a woman. (Even marriages between men and women who are past child-bearing years serve this procreative purpose, since they are role models for the younger, child-bearing couples.) (3) Cohabitations between persons of the same sex do not meet the time-honored definition and purposes of “marriage” and therefore should not qualify for the legal rights and privileges granted to marriage. (4) One generation of homosexual “marriages” would depopulate a nation, and, if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide. This became a framework the Church would use against gay marriage. According to Elder Oaks, we are just one generation away from a depopulated nation that will extinguish everyone in the nation. There are a lot of countries that now legalize gay marriage. Looks like the earth is going to be a wasteland in another generation. And of course families have been totally devastated because gay marriage is now legal. The scare tactics started early. One also has to remember that as president of BYU, Elder Oaks initiated a witch hunt to root out homosexuals on campus by setting up surveillance on students. From Wikipedia Quote Under Oaks, a system of surveillance and searches of dorms of problem students, including suspected homosexuals, was implemented.[35] This included electronic recording devices which BYU Security Chief Robert Kelshaw confirmed in 1975 had been planted on students to gather information. In reference to the widespread campaign to find homosexuals among BYU students, Oaks stated, "Two influences we wish to exclude from the BYU community are active homosexuals and drug users, and these subjects are therefore among those with which our security force is concerned."[36] It was also under Elder Oaks time at BYU that electro shock therapy was conducted against gay students. It seems apparent to me that Church leaders were relying on Elder Oaks opinion on homosexuals prior to the Proclamation being formalized. In May 1991, three same-sex couples sued the state of Hawaii for denying them marriage licenses in Baehr v. Lewin (later Baehr v. Miike). Legalization of gay marriage had already begun. Five months later the First Presidency issued this letter, a prototype for the Proclamation. Quote Standards of Morality and Fidelity We call upon members to renew their commitment to live the Lord’s standard of moral conduct. Parents should teach their children the sacred nature of procreative powers and instill in them a desire to be chaste in thought and deed. A correct understanding of the divinely appointed roles of men and women will fortify all against sinful practices. Our only real safety, physically and spiritually, lies in keeping the Lord’s commandments. The Lord’s law of moral conduct is abstinence outside of lawful marriage and fidelity within marriage. Sexual relations are proper only between husband and wife appropriately expressed within the bonds of marriage. Any other sexual contact, including fornication, adultery, and homosexual and lesbian behavior, is sinful. Those who persist in such practices or who influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline. We remind you of scriptures that make clear the relationship between one’s thoughts and actions… There is a distinction between immoral thoughts and feelings and participating in either immoral heterosexual or any homosexual behavior. However, such thoughts and feelings, regardless of their causes, can and should be overcome and sinful behavior should be eliminated…. In October of 1993, Elder Oaks and Elder Packard addressed gender roles in relationship to the Plan of Salvation. A little more than a year later, "The Family" A Proclamation to the World" was issued. I am pretty sure most of these volleys came about because it was becoming pretty clear that gay marriage would start to be challenged in courts and Elder Oaks realized that constitutionally speaking, there was little doubt it would eventually become legal. It is probably why the Church made such a great effort on Prop 8. Since the California Supreme Court ruled that gay marriage is a civil right, the Church was hoping they could push back that legal ruling. In the end, it didn't matter. After virtually every single Federal District judge ruled on the constitutionality of gay marriage being a civil right, the Supreme Court agreed and still ended up ruling on the civil right to marry for gay couples. For those wanting to read more about this, I got much of the information from this well written article on the subject. Edited March 14, 2021 by california boy 2 Link to comment
Popular Post MustardSeed Posted March 15, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 15, 2021 4 hours ago, california boy said: It seems like as time goes by, there is this increasing belief that "The Family" A Proclamation to the World" was some kind of prophetic statement came out of nowhere that foresaw the future. In reality the Proclamation was just the first of many volleys against gay marriage. Its development was a natural outcome of what was going on at the time. Let's look at a few facts. Back in 1980, the Church first published an article trying to scare people about what the ERA would do claiming that if the ERA was passed, then gay marriage would surely follow. It didn't pass. Gay marriage still happened. In 1984, Elder Oaks wrote a memorandum to Church leaders warning them that legally, gay marriage was a real possibility. Having clerked for the Supreme Court and being a smart man, he knew that the Constitution guaranteed equal protection under the law. It was only a matter of time. That same year, he was called to be an apostle. Part of that memorandum said this. This became a framework the Church would use against gay marriage. According to Elder Oaks, we are just one generation away from a depopulated nation that will extinguish everyone in the nation. There are a lot of countries that now legalize gay marriage. Looks like the earth is going to be a wasteland in another generation. And of course families have been totally devastated because gay marriage is now legal. The scare tactics started early. One also has to remember that as president of BYU, Elder Oaks initiated a witch hunt to root out homosexuals on campus by setting up surveillance on students. From Wikipedia It was also under Elder Oaks time at BYU that electro shock therapy was conducted against gay students. It seems apparent to me that Church leaders were relying on Elder Oaks opinion on homosexuals prior to the Proclamation being formalized. In May 1991, three same-sex couples sued the state of Hawaii for denying them marriage licenses in Baehr v. Lewin (later Baehr v. Miike). Legalization of gay marriage had already begun. Five months later the First Presidency issued this letter, a prototype for the Proclamation. In October of 1993, Elder Oaks and Elder Packard addressed gender roles in relationship to the Plan of Salvation. A little more than a year later, "The Family" A Proclamation to the World" was issued. I am pretty sure most of these volleys came about because it was becoming pretty clear that gay marriage would start to be challenged in courts and Elder Oaks realized that constitutionally speaking, there was little doubt it would eventually become legal. It is probably why the Church made such a great effort on Prop 8. Since the California Supreme Court ruled that gay marriage is a civil right, the Church was hoping they could push back that legal ruling. In the end, it didn't matter. After virtually every single Federal District judge ruled on the constitutionality of gay marriage being a civil right, the Supreme Court agreed and still ended up ruling on the civil right to marry for gay couples. For those wanting to read more about this, I got much of the information from this well written article on the subject. I completely agree that the proclamation came as a result of clarity the brethren saw long ago. I recall telling my husband in 1998 that homosexuality would force the hand of the church and he thought I was nuts. Here we are. I trust the brethren had greater pulse on it than most of us did long long before I noticed a direction. Incidentally, I believe very much in taking responsibility to take everything I hear to God and get clarity for Myself. I think much of what the apostles say is inspired and good. I also believe they are imperfect and that I have a right to inspiration for me personally. I don't always follow directives of my local leaders so I leave plenty of space between me and all leadership. But I do believe they are closer to the spirit more often than I am so I listen, and I weigh. 5 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 16 hours ago, AtlanticMike said: Do you think we need to be doing more as a church to spread the gospel message? No, if God wanted us to spread the gospel He probably would have told us to do so. Link to comment
Rivers Posted March 15, 2021 Share Posted March 15, 2021 (edited) On 3/14/2021 at 6:12 AM, AtlanticMike said: Do you think we need to be doing more as a church to spread the gospel message? Absolutely. Edited March 15, 2021 by Rivers Link to comment
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 16, 2021 Author Share Posted March 16, 2021 On 3/14/2021 at 3:20 PM, california boy said: It seems like as time goes by, there is this increasing belief that "The Family" A Proclamation to the World" was some kind of prophetic statement came out of nowhere that foresaw the future. In reality the Proclamation was just the first of many volleys against gay marriage. Its development was a natural outcome of what was going on at the time. You listed many points, let me point out the facts. Being “pro-family”, does not mean or suggest that this “Proclamation”, is somehow “anti-gay”. No more than being “pro-Jesus Christ”, is somehow “anti+Jew, or anti-Muslim”. The Catholic Church just issued a statement like this a few days ago. Just like scripture, doctrinal writings exist to both explain, and define the core beliefs of all Churches. Wishing it to be otherwise, does not make it so. Link to comment
california boy Posted March 16, 2021 Share Posted March 16, 2021 3 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: You listed many points, let me point out the facts. Being “pro-family”, does not mean or suggest that this “Proclamation”, is somehow “anti-gay”. No more than being “pro-Jesus Christ”, is somehow “anti+Jew, or anti-Muslim”. The Catholic Church just issued a statement like this a few days ago. Just like scripture, doctrinal writings exist to both explain, and define the core beliefs of all Churches. Wishing it to be otherwise, does not make it so. The old, we love gays, we are just anti-gay families. Yeah I am pretty clear on where the Church stands. That point has been made over and over again in very public ways. The Church doesn't even want gay families to exist outside the Church. I personally don't see a day where gay families will be welcomed into the Church any time soon. According to Elder Oaks, our marriages are going to completely wipe out the population of any country where those marriages are legal. Well now they are legal so I guess it doesn't really matter. The country is only a generation away from complete annihilation. Turns out gay marriage is the worst evil that has ever been leashed on the earth ever. Worse that all the wars, all the disease, all the plagues, all the famines, all the evil dictators that have existed for all time. None has had the power to wipe out the entire population of the country. Quote One generation of homosexual “marriages” would depopulate a nation, and, if sufficiently widespread, would extinguish its people. Our marriage laws should not abet national suicide. -Dallin H. Oaks. 2 Link to comment
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 16, 2021 Author Share Posted March 16, 2021 2 hours ago, california boy said: The old, we love gays, we are just anti-gay families. Yeah I am pretty clear on where the Church stands. That point has been made over and over again in very public ways. The Church doesn't even want gay families to exist outside the Church. I personally don't see a day where gay families will be welcomed into the Church any time soon. According to Elder Oaks, our marriages are going to completely wipe out the population of any country where those marriages are legal. Well now they are legal so I guess it doesn't really matter. The country is only a generation away from complete annihilation. Turns out gay marriage is the worst evil that has ever been leashed on the earth ever. Worse that all the wars, all the disease, all the plagues, all the famines, all the evil dictators that have existed for all time. None has had the power to wipe out the entire population of the country. Except, I most certainly do love one gay couple about almost all things in the world. But you suggest that we, or I, in the case of my daughter and daughter-in-law, cannot love them, while also promoting, or supporting the “Biblical view of marriage”. Not the “Mormon or LDS Church view of marriage”. We as a Church, and Church leadership are promoting the view of marriage, and gender based issues written in every word from “Genesis to the Revelation.” The Church did not create the views expressed in the “Proclamation on the Family”, we borrowed them from all recorded scriptural history. Unless you are suggesting that all of recorded scripture was conceived, and written as some “anti-gay” document, or “anti-gender bias”, because they were not. Thus the “Proclamation on the Family”, is a Biblical view of such issues as ordained by God, not man. Again, wishing it to be so, will not make it so, just as the Catholic Church issued a similar document just days ago, “promoting the “Biblical Family”. They did so while also condemning those who are not compassionate toward those with differing lifestyles. So yes, we can love others, while also holding a differing opinion or belief, it is rather easy, at least in my case. 1 Link to comment
Rivers Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 I just have one question for church members that regularly advocate for progress on the gay issue. What specifically is the end goal? Link to comment
california boy Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 18 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: Except, I most certainly do love one gay couple about almost all things in the world. But you suggest that we, or I, in the case of my daughter and daughter-in-law, cannot love them, while also promoting, or supporting the “Biblical view of marriage”. Not the “Mormon or LDS Church view of marriage”. We as a Church, and Church leadership are promoting the view of marriage, and gender based issues written in every word from “Genesis to the Revelation.” The Church did not create the views expressed in the “Proclamation on the Family”, we borrowed them from all recorded scriptural history. Unless you are suggesting that all of recorded scripture was conceived, and written as some “anti-gay” document, or “anti-gender bias”, because they were not. Thus the “Proclamation on the Family”, is a Biblical view of such issues as ordained by God, not man. Again, wishing it to be so, will not make it so, just as the Catholic Church issued a similar document just days ago, “promoting the “Biblical Family”. They did so while also condemning those who are not compassionate toward those with differing lifestyles. So yes, we can love others, while also holding a differing opinion or belief, it is rather easy, at least in my case. I just have a few questions for you. Did you show your love towards your daughter and her partner by calling them apostates like the Church recommended? Do you think that because of your daughter and her partner's relationship, the entire United States will be depopulated in a generation like Elder Oaks does? While you brought up Bible scripture that talks about homosexual relationships outside of marriage, do you have a modern day revelation from God concerning what He thinks of a marriage between two people of the same sex? Or is modern revelation no longer something that occurs. Because if you are going to deny the priesthood and temple blessings for an entire group of people, shouldn't it be based on revelation from God? We all are very aware of the disaster that can happen when we rely on the opinion of Church leaders to set policy denying a whole group of people those blessings. 1 Link to comment
2BizE Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 I want my church to progress and improve and not be stuck in 1950s ideologies. The traditions of the past should stay in the past and new traditions should be formed that work for today. There is a reason 50% of active, faithful millennials are leaving the church and find our leaders of today irrelevant. Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 50 minutes ago, 2BizE said: I want my church to progress and improve and not be stuck in 1950s ideologies. The traditions of the past should stay in the past and new traditions should be formed that work for today. There is a reason 50% of active, faithful millennials are leaving the church and find our leaders of today irrelevant. Doesn't God's truth matter more than traditions, either past or present? I want God, not my idea of God. 2 Link to comment
Ahab Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 14 hours ago, Rivers said: I just have one question for church members that regularly advocate for progress on the gay issue. What specifically is the end goal? That we all love each other while understanding that it isn't good when some of us want to "know" (in the religious context) others of us, especially not when we are of the same sex. And, yes, if I could achieve that goal by snapping my fingers after gathering all of the Infinity Stones together, I would. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post MustardSeed Posted March 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2021 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Doesn't God's truth matter more than traditions, either past or present? I want God, not my idea of God. Oh that I should know what God truly thinks . My best guess is that every last one of us are so far off the mark that the Truth will finally actually set us all free. 6 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 15 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: Oh that I should know what God truly thinks . My best guess is that every last one of us are so far off the mark that the Truth will finally actually set us all free. I agree that is true, but I think it has become a crutch for dissenting. The idea that nobody has any actual truth they can be certain of is an excuse to question everything. Nothing could be further from the purpose of God and the exercise of faith. 1 Link to comment
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 17, 2021 Author Share Posted March 17, 2021 5 hours ago, california boy said: I just have a few questions for you. Did you show your love towards your daughter and her partner by calling them apostates like the Church recommended? Do you think that because of your daughter and her partner's relationship, the entire United States will be depopulated in a generation like Elder Oaks does? While you brought up Bible scripture that talks about homosexual relationships outside of marriage, do you have a modern day revelation from God concerning what He thinks of a marriage between two people of the same sex? Or is modern revelation no longer something that occurs. Because if you are going to deny the priesthood and temple blessings for an entire group of people, shouldn't it be based on revelation from God? We all are very aware of the disaster that can happen when we rely on the opinion of Church leaders to set policy denying a whole group of people those blessings. Wow, we disagree, and you go right for the jugular! I actually walked my daughter down the “isle” when she married last, if you must know. I am very disappointed at this question about Alicia, and you should feel lucky she did not see you disrespect her Father like this young man! But, I am not the Church, I am just a member. I also did not write the scriptures, I am just a believer in scripture. Now, as far as continuing revelation goes, there are limits to what Prophets may, or “may not add too, or take away from, least God take away their names from the book of life” (too paraphrase the “Book of Revelation”).The scriptures exclude many groups of individuals from receiving “the blessings of the Gospel, or the Temple, except it be upon conditions of repentance. A quick read of Galatians 5: 19-21, will give you are partial list. I am not singling you out, you choose to reply to the thread, and I am just answering with the scriptures, and have not attacked you personally. Am I to assume that, both myself, and the Church must abandon our beliefs in the teachings of God, and nothing less is acceptable to you? So, what is it to be CA, a total surrender on our (or my) part, or is there any middle ground, that will quell you sudden anger, and disrespect addressed at my family, and myself? Your move! Link to comment
Ahab Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 On 3/13/2021 at 9:01 AM, Bill “Papa” Lee said: One question, Have many Latter-day Saints began to accept, or reject (more often than in the past) the words of our Living Prophet, or Prophet’s, because of such fast moving “social norms”? Accept or reject... because of such fast moving norms? What I accept or reject doesn't have anything to do with what the norms of society are or were. I don't care one whit about what is considered normal. I just want what is best for me and my family. On 3/13/2021 at 9:01 AM, Bill “Papa” Lee said: Where do members here feel concerning today’s teachings, our views, or where you see us moving as a “body of believers”. As a body of believers of what? We're all going to believe something and we're never going to get to a point where all of us will agree with each other, or at least I don't envision that as something that will happen, so we're going to end up wherever our beliefs will lead us as far as our beliefs are true. Link to comment
california boy Posted March 17, 2021 Share Posted March 17, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said: Wow, we disagree, and you go right for the jugular! I actually walked my daughter down the “isle” when she married last, if you must know. I am very disappointed at this question about Alicia, and you should feel lucky she did not see you disrespect her Father like this young man! But, I am not the Church, I am just a member. I also did not write the scriptures, I am just a believer in scripture. Now, as far as continuing revelation goes, there are limits to what Prophets may, or “may not add too, or take away from, least God take away their names from the book of life” (too paraphrase the “Book of Revelation”).The scriptures exclude many groups of individuals from receiving “the blessings of the Gospel, or the Temple, except it be upon conditions of repentance. A quick read of Galatians 5: 19-21, will give you are partial list. I am not singling you out, you choose to reply to the thread, and I am just answering with the scriptures, and have not attacked you personally. Am I to assume that, both myself, and the Church must abandon our beliefs in the teachings of God, and nothing less is acceptable to you? So, what is it to be CA, a total surrender on our (or my) part, or is there any middle ground, that will quell you sudden anger, and disrespect addressed at my family, and myself? Your move! Just to be perfectly clear, I NEVER attacked you personally. And quite frankly, if the Church had the same respect for gay couples as you do, this dialogue would be completely different. I have never seen you demand that members of the Church start calling gay couples apostates. To my knowledge, I don't think you were personally trying to take away the civil rights of gay couples to marry in California. And I doubt very much that you think if gay marriage is allowed, this nation will be depopulated within one generation. I honestly assumed your answers to the questions I asked would be a firm NO. I still think your answer is no. You can tell me if you I am wrong in that assumption. I wish you, your daughter and her partner only the best. Feel free to show my post to your daughter. I would love to hear how she feels about how the Church treats her marriage. Edited March 17, 2021 by california boy Link to comment
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted March 18, 2021 Author Share Posted March 18, 2021 1 hour ago, california boy said: I wish you, your daughter and her partner only the best. Feel free to show my post to your daughter. I would love to hear how she feels about how the Church treats her marriage. I fear she is not as diplomatic as I am, and given our close relationship, she would have seen it as an attack on her Daddy. As she will tell anyone, “no one messes with or disrespects my Daddy. She is very protective of me, when I am not the one in her cross hairs. As far as her and her wife, they attend baptisms (my grandson, just two weeks ago) and other special occasions. I will of course point out that my daughter is in her middle 30’s, and grew up in the area where we attend Church. So she is always greeted with great love and affection, since most have known her every day of her life. Because of this familiarity, she and her wife, are probably greeted with much more enthusiasm, than if just strangers of the street. The point I was trying to make to your other question, was that there is a long list of those who might be apostates, and for which some are excommunicated as a result. This would of course include, “evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed”, something I am not prepared to do, and cannot walk down the path you are own by naming them. Do many people often say, ridicules things, yes they do, it is a human trait. But I will not add my voice and further compound the error. Again, I am only admitting that I believe the words of God as they are written, or as I understand them. All I know, is that despite many changes norms, I will not change into a non believer. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I support the Quorum of the Twelve, and the First Presidency. As a believer, I support the Scriptures upon which that belief is placed, which bare witness of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is because of this, I am able to love and respect all, without demanding they believe as I do. 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 14 hours ago, Rivers said: I just have one question for church members that regularly advocate for progress on the gay issue. What specifically is the end goal? Converting everyone to Satanism and ushering in a 1000 year reign of liberal darkness. Did you even read the flyer? 4 Link to comment
Rivers Posted March 18, 2021 Share Posted March 18, 2021 13 hours ago, 2BizE said: I want my church to progress and improve and not be stuck in 1950s ideologies. The traditions of the past should stay in the past and new traditions should be formed that work for today. There is a reason 50% of active, faithful millennials are leaving the church and find our leaders of today irrelevant. Not every tradition of the past is bad. Not every tradition of the present is good. 4 Link to comment
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