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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

As a woman, I don't want to see male anatomy in a women's locker room. I don't think young girls need to see male anatomy in female spaces. Many feminists are quite upset that transgender women's feelings matter more than the feelings of biological woman. Biology matters and I am very unhappy transgender women are taking biologically female spots on Olympic teams. Men who feel like they are women have more rights than women. Many feminists agree and are quite upset with this. Plus, I think you are trolling and using this issue to slam women who feel women's rights  do matter and equal treatment is a good thing.

Your comments belittle the work women have done to be treated fairly.

Are you aware that between 1926 and 1962, it was the recommendation of The American Public Health Association that boys do not wear swimming suits during gym class and during competitions?  It was common for boys to swim naked during competitions where parents and the public were spectators.  Their photos appeared regularly in local papers accepting placements medals while still completely naked.  This practice was prevalent in both public and private schools.  The YMCA would not allow men to wear swimming suits in their pools.  Just one example from one of many articles on this subject.

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In 1940, the Sheboygan Press published an article on swim classes that occupied nearly one quarter of the entire daily edition with full-scale photographs clearly showing nude boys in their swim class. They went as far as to publish the names of the boys and their addresses.  

The educational boards of many major cities all endorsed the “no swim suit” rule with the Menasha High School of Menasha Wisconsin rejecting the appeal of parents in 1961 to allow boys to wear swimsuits.

In 1960, Walt Disney studios produced the G- rated film “Polyanna”, whose opening scene is that of boys swimming nude. This piece of cultural trivia tells us that watching naked boys swimming was deemed acceptable, regardless of the age or gender watching.

 

There are literally hundreds of photos and articles that were published in local newspapers around the country as well as major magazines such as Life Magazine showing swimming competitions where boys swam naked.  For obvious reasons, I can't post links to these articles and photos.  Hard to believe, but getting all upset about  seeing a boy naked is a relatively recent issue.  This practice started to go out of favor in the 70's.  

I used to work out regularly at the YMCA in the 70's.  It was male only and even then, swimming naked was considered normal.  Then there was pressure where women were pressuring all of these male only facilities to include females.  YMCA relented and began to allow women.  The practice was discontinued.  There were plenty of men who were just as upset as you are who didn't like women forcing themselves on men.  We managed to live thorough it and figured out a way to get along.

Also, I am not sure you will ever see a male genetilia in a locker room.  I now work out at 24 hour fitness.  They require transgenders to still use the male locker rooms until they have the operation that removes their male parts.  I would occasionally see a person transitioning in the men's locker room.  No one seemed to mind seeing their breasts.  She was pretty modest about the whole thing and our showers are divided with frosted glass.  It is quite rare these days to see open showers.  People just didn't make a big deal out of it. 

I personally don't understand at all what it would be like to feel the need to transition to another sex.  What I do know is that it takes incredible courage and will to be able to endure the kind of harassment and pushback that is bound to happen.  But they still want to go through with it.  I admire that kind of strength.  Something I am very glad I don't have to personally endure.  Kinda makes being gay seem like a walk in the park.  

I am curious what you would recommend the person who is in this situation to do? I would also like to know:

Do you or your children go to a place that has open showers?

Has there ever been an incident at the school your children go to that a person transition went into the girls locker room?

Do you know how the school would handle such a situation?

 

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3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Report me

Nope!! I'm a big believer in snitches get stitches 😂😂. I would never report you, see you got me all wrong

 

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13 minutes ago, Calm said:

 I have time to post because I am restricted to home and laying flat in bed most of the time

Ok, sorry bout that, hope you get better. Here's one thing I'll tell ya calm. One thing I've learned in life is everyone has struggles and some are able to deal with life problems better than others. You'll usually see me trying to uplift  people on this board if I think they're struggling mentally. I don't mind telling a perfect stranger, "hey!! I love man!!" Because believe it or not there's a lot of people out there who never hear the words I love you . One I love you can be a great pick me up, online or in person. 

     Butttt! I don't take any xxit either😁. So, I won't say love ya calm, because a while you made it clear on how you feel about megiving compliments, but I'll say, good day mate😁

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14 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

see you got me all wrong

 

And again you assume what I am thinking…

You think I am breaking board rules, then report me or anyone else you think is breaking the board rules.  It is what I tell everyone generally who whines about unfairness in banning.  It is highly unlikely that mods will read my posts if not reported from what I can tell by how things have been moderated in the past.  
 

If you keep going on about how unfair it is that you get banned when you are reported and I don’t get banned because I don’t get reported, it just makes you look like a whiner.  You are not the only one that does this, btw (complains that they get banned when someone else doesn’t but refuses to report any offense); hasn’t changed mod behaviour yet that I am aware of…and given how much time it would take to moderate the board by finding inappropriate posts without using the report systems, I have little doubt it is going to change.

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Ok, sorry bout that, hope you get better. Here's one thing I'll tell ya calm. One thing I've learned in life is everyone has struggles and some are able to deal with life problems better than others. You'll usually see me trying to uplift  people on this board if I think they're struggling mentally. I don't mind telling a perfect stranger, "hey!! I love man!!" Because believe it or not there's a lot of people out there who never hear the words I love you . One I love you can be a great pick me up, online or in person. 

     Butttt! I don't take any xxit either😁. So, I won't say love ya calm, because a while you made it clear on how you feel about megiving compliments, but I'll say, good day mate😁

No need to be sorry.  I have a great setup and support system.  Just sharing the info because some have gotten embarrassed when they find out.

PS:  I report…a lot, I believe it helps the mods to keep the board culture working….so no need to be reluctant to report me if you think I am breaking rules.

Edited by Calm
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17 minutes ago, Calm said:

You think I am breaking board rules, then report me or anyone else you think is breaking the board rules

Nope, goes against everything I believe in. Besides, I think there might be a chance you're Nemisis in disguise 😁

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5 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Besides, I think there might be a chance you're Nemisis in disguise 😁

I am not.  I was a moderator on an older board and it is a hellish occupation, which is why I report like I do…to make things easier in the long run (much harder to get a board back on track, the one I moderated never did).

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, california boy said:

Do you know how the school would handle such a situation?

The Supreme Court is clear on the issue.

l’m sure you won’t be surprised that I don’t agree with regulating young girls get used to seeing male genitalia. 

And, yes my family goes to Rec centers and public pools. A redesign is in order. Often, you are forced to enter the pool area through a locker room. 
 

And, your historical example doesn’t fly. Unless you want to ban women again. As it is, woman will self ban. Maybe that is fine with you. Like I said. Trans women matter more than women. 
 


 

 

Edited by bsjkki
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1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

The Supreme Court is clear on the issue.

l’m sure you won’t be surprised that I don’t agree with regulating young girls get used to seeing male genitalia. 

And, yes my family goes to Rec centers and public pools. A redesign is in order. Often, you are forced to enter the pool area through a locker room. 
 

And, your historical example doesn’t fly. Unless you want to ban women again. As it is, woman will self ban. Maybe that is fine with you. Like I said. Trans women matter more than women. 
 


 

 

You know you really didn't answer a single question I asked.  So I am wondering now, who is the troll? Do you really have something to say, or are you just putting out hysterics?

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I did answer your question. The school has no choice in how it addresses the situation. It is the law of the land.

Your 24 Fitness rules are probably now unconstitutional too.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, california boy said:

There were plenty of men who were just as upset as you are who didn't like women forcing themselves on men.  We managed to live thorough it and figured out a way to get along.

Did any of them ever expressed fear of being stalked, assaulted, or raped by the clothed women and girls they were forced to share a relatively public space with?

I am not saying all such fears are rational though some fear I find quite rational (if a transgendered woman has been previously violent towards women, seems pretty sensible to assume putting her among other women in either a shelter or a prison with her typically greater strength and level of violence is not a good idea if worried about the safety of prisoners and guards), but especially in the case of prior victims I don’t find dismissing fears as irrational rather than dealing with them to be very charitable. There should be some way to be both charitable to transgender women and nontrans females. 

My understanding is that transgender women in general desire to use the women’s locker rooms, restrooms, and prisons because they feel too vulnerable in men’s locker rooms, etc.  Am I correct or is there another primary reason they want the choice?

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Did any of them ever expressed fear of being stalked, assaulted, or raped by the clothed women and girls they were forced to share a relatively public space with?

Well let's talk about this for a minute.  Why would someone who is transgender want to stalk a woman?  And if a straight man wanted to stalk a woman in a bathroom, couldn't they just put on a wig and a dress? Is there anyone at the bathroom door that is checking to see if it is a real woman?  And couldn't a woman be stalked anywhere? 

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I am not saying all such fears are rational though some fear I find quite rational (if a transgendered woman has been previously violent towards women, seems pretty sensible to assume putting her among other women in either a shelter or a prison with her typically greater strength and level of violence is not a good idea if worried about the safety of prisoners and guards), but especially in the case of prior victims I don’t find dismissing fears as irrational rather than dealing with them to be very charitable. There should be some way to be both charitable to transgender women and nontrans females. 

Do transgender women have a propensity towards violence against women?  That is a new concept for me.  Any data on this?  Don't people go to jail for this kind of behavior no matter who they are?

2 hours ago, Calm said:

My understanding is that transgender women in general desire to use the women’s locker rooms, restrooms, and prisons because they feel too vulnerable in men’s locker rooms, etc.  Am I correct or is there another primary reason they want the choice?

I really don't have any special insight on how transgender feel.  But I do know being transgender does put them at risk for higher rates of violence agains them no matter where they are.  It is one of the reasons why I honestly admire their courage to take these steps in their lives.  The alternative of living in the wrong body must really be impossible to bear if they are willing to take such risk and such prejudice against them.

According to the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey:

  • Nearly half (46%) of respondents were verbally harassed in the past year because of being transgender.
  • Nearly one in ten (9%) respondents were physically attacked in the past year because of being transgender.
  • Nearly half (47%) of respondents were sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime and one in ten (10%) were sexually assaulted in the past year. In communities of color, these numbers are higher: 53% of Black respondents were sexually assaulted in their lifetime and 13% were sexually assaulted in the last year.
  • 72% of respondents who have done sex work, 65% of respondents who have experienced homelessness, and 61% of respondents with disabilities reported being sexually assaulted in their lifetime.
  • More than half (54%) experienced some form of intimate partner violence, including acts involving coercive control and physical harm.
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3 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I did answer your question. The school has no choice in how it addresses the situation. It is the law of the land.

Which one of these questions did you actually answer???

Quote

 

I am curious what you would recommend the person who is in this situation to do? I would also like to know:

Do you or your children go to a place that has open showers?

Has there ever been an incident at the school your children go to that a person transition went into the girls locker room?

Do you know how the school would handle such a situation?

 

3 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Your 24 Fitness rules are probably now unconstitutional too.

This was just last year before covid closed the gym.  Can you tell me what Supreme Court ruling made what 24 Hour Fitness is doing unconstitutional?  

Honestly, you are not coming across as being very credible.  You are making inflammatory statements but have nothing to back up what you are saying.  If this was actually a real issue for you, it seems you would have something to actually say about this issue more than just drive-by accusations meant to gin up prejudice against transgenders.

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Posted (edited)

I don’t have time to discuss this right now, but putting it up so I don’t forget. I have been looking for data on transgender women in prisons and came across this that includes info on a study comparing women and transgender women who underwent surgery.  Perhaps it can provide some concrete data to base discussion of best practices on.

pdf

Edited by Calm
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Perhaps if the issue is protecting a vulnerable population, it would be reasonable to put up harassment, abuse, victim of violence for women in prisons and shelters as a comparison.

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t have time to discuss this right now, but putting it up so I don’t forget. I have been looking for data on transgender women in prisons and came across this that includes info on a study comparing women and transgender women who underwent surgery.  Perhaps it can provide some concrete data to base discussion of best practices on.

pdf

I've only met a few transgender people in my life. Let me tell you a funny story. When I go surfing in the morning there's a spot where a group of 1 to 20 surfers will be in the water at a time. I'm sitting on my board and start talking to this dude next to me, he's about my age, and we hit it off, he's a cool dude, tells me about his wife and how she will come to the beach in the summer and watch him surf and let the kids play. We had a great conversation and when we walked to our vehicles I got dressed and walked over to his car, he was about 4 cars away, and I turn to talk to him and he's putting on women's clothes. It took about 3 or 4 seconds I guess to register in my brain what was actually going on in that moment, I could tell he was a laid back person, so in my weird sense of humor I said, xxck man, why are you borrowing your wife's clothes, is the washer broken😁. Well, immediately she started laughing and appreciated that I could make an awkward situation light-hearted and fun. She has no desire for any kind of surgery and lives as a woman. Through that friendship I've met someone who she's close to who has a very tough time mentally with being transgender and got a breast augmentation and has probably had more surgeries, I'm not sure though, haven't seen her in a while. 

      I have a question if you don't mind answering. Do you see a transgender female who hasn't had surgery differently than a transgender female who has? Please don't answer if it makes you uncomfortable. 

 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

have a question if you don't mind answering. Do you see a transgender female who hasn't had surgery differently than a transgender female who has? Please don't answer if it makes you uncomfortable. 

Why would it make me uncomfortable?

Depends on the context…. if there are differences, whether those differences are relevant or not.  
 

For example..,child care, unless there is a medication issue, see little reason surgery makes a difference in appraisal of the adult.  Of course depending on the age of the child and how much they understand, a caregiver having surgery to change gender could be confusing for them, but I have no clue if inherently traumatic or no big deal depending on how the caregiver approaches it or what factors might be involved.

In the context of anticipation of health issues, it would be very important to treat the individual who had surgery in a different way than someone who choose to live as a woman without medical intervention.

It is the same answer I would give if someone asked me if I see a man as being different than a woman.

In some ways I would, others not. Be more specific if you want specifics kind of thing…

Edited by Calm
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1 minute ago, Calm said:

Be more specific if you want specifics kind of thing…

Well, the conversation has been about what body parts makes some people uncomfortable in a locker room. So, if a transgender woman who has had surgery to look more like a woman uses a women's locker room, does that make you feel more comfortable in their presence? 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Well, the conversation has been about what body parts makes some people uncomfortable in a locker room. So, if a transgender woman who has had surgery to look more like a woman uses a women's locker room, does that make you feel more comfortable in their presence? 

Me personally?  Stuff like penises would not be a concern for me after the initial surprise if no warning was given (my dad had a rather relaxed attitude about dress around the home, I catherized if that is the term a young man who I substituted for his usual caregiver, Moscow streets were papered with porn and markets had sex toys next to kids toys…it got boring pretty quickly)….assuming they were doing what the other women in locker rooms typically do when they don’t know each other in my experience, which is either ignore completely or give a nod to show registration of their presence and then focus on getting dressed or whatever.  
 

How they interacted with others there would be what I focused on. I would pay attention if they came across as overly interested or aggressive or otherwise unusual behaviour. If they just did what everyone else was doing, I would probably stay aware of them just because a new experience, but it would not change my behaviour. 
 

But then I have never been sexually assaulted or otherwise physically harmed by another nor emotionally assaulted. 

Edited by Calm
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17 hours ago, california boy said:

Are you aware that between 1926 and 1962, it was the recommendation of The American Public Health Association that boys do not wear swimming suits during gym class and during competitions?  It was common for boys to swim naked during competitions where parents and the public were spectators.  Their photos appeared regularly in local papers accepting placements medals while still completely naked.  This practice was prevalent in both public and private schools.  The YMCA would not allow men to wear swimming suits in their pools.  Just one example from one of many articles on this subject.

 

 

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with transgender issues. Red herring alert once we get past the mansplaining about how women have no business demanding protected space let alone have a right to be bothered by its lack. 

Quote

 

According to the 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey:

Nearly half (46%) of respondents were verbally harassed in the past year because of being transgender.

Nearly one in ten (9%) respondents were physically attacked in the past year because of being transgender.

Nearly half (47%) of respondents were sexually assaulted at some point in their lifetime and one in ten (10%) were sexually assaulted in the past year. In communities of color, these numbers are higher: 53% of Black respondents were sexually assaulted in their lifetime and 13% were sexually assaulted in the last year.

72% of respondents who have done sex work, 65% of respondents who have experienced homelessness, and 61% of respondents with disabilities reported being sexually assaulted in their lifetime.

More than half (54%) experienced some form of intimate partner violence, including acts involving coercive control and physical harm.

 

First, this is a survey by a transgender advocacy group completed by using other trans orgs to find respondents. Second, I did not find one result categorized by male/female responses. That makes it meaningless. Men and women have different experiences. Males who identify as female do not lose their male aggressiveness which can be seen in the shocking rates of attacks on women when they transfer into female prisons. Third, all of this needs to be compared to the female experience if the respondent is a transwoman. I doubt the harrassment or assault rates would be much different, in other words, it is part of being a woman....the very thing they desire. Also, engaging in risky behavior like prostitution is not comparable to everyday life. At what rates are biological female prostitutes assaulted? Just more meaningless stats.

Which brings us to the real problem, which is male violence. Period. I doubt it is females doing all this assaulting. Until they untangle all of the variables (or even acknowledge them), the useful information is limited. 

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21 minutes ago, juliann said:

g. Until they untangle all of the variables (or even acknowledge them), the useful information is limited

This….it is difficult to find stats to compare, such as rates where transgenders were the predators, not the victims. 

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12 hours ago, california boy said:

Well let's talk about this for a minute.  Why would someone who is transgender want to stalk a woman?  

 

 

A significant minority of men will go out of their way to gain access to preferred victims. You can't be this clueless, CB. This never happens in schools, churches, with coaches, youth organizations, right? 

 

Quote

 And if a straight man wanted to stalk a woman in a bathroom, couldn't they just put on a wig and a dress? Is there anyone at the bathroom door that is checking to see if it is a real woman?  And couldn't a woman be stalked anywhere? 

Hello??????? Men don't have to do anything but say they are a woman now. No wigs necessary. And you are seriously asking if women can be stalked anywhere? Does it not occur to you that is why we want and need protected spaces?

You seriously need to educate yourself. You are obviously oblivious to any stats that aren't put out by advocacy groups. So let's ask you a question. How many of the males being sent to women's prisons are sex offenders or have committed violence against women? I mean, they wouldn't even consider putting an intact male who had tortured women and raped them in a small cell with a biological female....right? 

 

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10 hours ago, juliann said:

This has absolutely nothing to do with transgender issues. Red herring alert once we get past the mansplaining about how women have no business demanding protected space let alone have a right to be bothered by its lack. 

First, this is a survey by a transgender advocacy group completed by using other trans orgs to find respondents. Second, I did not find one result categorized by male/female responses. That makes it meaningless. Men and women have different experiences. Males who identify as female do not lose their male aggressiveness which can be seen in the shocking rates of attacks on women when they transfer into female prisons. Third, all of this needs to be compared to the female experience if the respondent is a transwoman. I doubt the harrassment or assault rates would be much different, in other words, it is part of being a woman....the very thing they desire. Also, engaging in risky behavior like prostitution is not comparable to everyday life. At what rates are biological female prostitutes assaulted? Just more meaningless stats.

Which brings us to the real problem, which is male violence. Period. I doubt it is females doing all this assaulting. Until they untangle all of the variables (or even acknowledge them), the useful information is limited. 

Do you have any data on transgenders attacking women in restrooms?  I personally am not someone who has looked at any data, so I welcome any information you may have. 

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