Murder Among the Mormons on Netflix

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

The Tanners like to say they were "the first ones to doubt" it, but

More like, the first ones to produce a written, detailed analysis challenging it.

[strappinglad]

That emoji doesn't mean what you think it means. Either that, or it doesn't mean what I think it means. No matter, I will now go get a couple of chill pills just in case. 

For the record, I had the same thoughts as you when this first came out in the news. Time and Nuance had me rethink .

[Kenngo1969]

39 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

And while they were at it they should have been able to forewarn those who were to be  killed by Hofmann. 👿

 

22 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I didn't say that, you know what, you win today, you gave me a purple satan so I dont see this conversation going anywhere.  Here's a purple bouquet of flowers I bought for you from William and Sonoma, will you be my friend? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Take a chill pill bro it's sunday.

I think, in your rush to dismiss Strappinglad's post as mere snark (or whatever you think it is), you're overlooking the point he's trying to make: It's all too easy to start down the road of "Why-didn't-the-Brethren-see-this?" or "Why-didn't-they-do-that?" and that road never ends.  It never ends.  And it starts, I think, with an unfair and unrealistic expectation to begin with.  As I have often said regarding optimism, so it is with trust: Even optimism that, occasionally, is betrayed is better than cynicism and pessimism that always are rewarded.  And even trust that, occasionally, is betrayed is better than cynicism and suspicion that always are rewarded. 

The fact of the matter is, ultimately, Hofmann got exactly what he deserved and ended up right where he belongs.  Did he hurt the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  While I don't want to understate the damage he did, especially since he killed two people who were faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ, his treachery and duplicity serve as important reminders of how it's at least as important to be "as wise as serpents," even as we're being "as harmless as doves."  See Matthew 10:16.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[CV75]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Just that they had two choices, either the documents are real, or they're fake. And in my mind, how I grew up understanding the prompting of the Holy Ghost and then on top of that what a Seer is, I thought this meeting Hoffman had with 5 Seers would of been a awsome opportunity to call him on his crap. Is that asking to much, possibly,  I kind of see your point.

Are you asking or wanting them to call such things out, or just expressing that it would be awesome if they would?

What are some of the awesome things you have seen them do?

What are some examples of fraud that you see today that they, or you, would call out?

Can you share an experience you've had with the Holy Ghost, especially in connection with carrying out your Melchizedek Priesthood responsibility or having priesthood power?

[AtlanticMike]

6 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

That emoji doesn't mean what you think it means. Either that, or it doesn't mean what I think it means. No matter, I will now go get a couple of chill pills just in case. 

For the record, I had the same thoughts as you when this first came out in the news. Time and Nuance had me rethink .

I thought it meant you are frustrated with me, i dont know,  I'm new to emojis. Either way, enjoy the flowers😁

Edited March 14, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[Kenngo1969]

6 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I thought it meant you are frustrated with me, i dont know,  I'm new to emojis. Either way, enjoy the flowers😁

What if he's allergic to them?!  What will you do then, Hmmmm?* (*Please note, this post was intended solely as humor, and is not to be taken seriously in any way: Please don't start the: (1) misread what I wrote, (2) take offense based, not on what I wrote, but, rather, upon your misreading of what I wrote, (3) get your tender widdow feewings hurt, (4) lather, rinse, and repeat cycle.)

[Kenngo1969]

It would surprise me if every bishop in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints weren't taken for a ride at least once a year by someone claiming a genuine need for Church welfare assistance.  Whaddawegonnado then, hmmmmm?  Say of the entire welfare program Churchwide, "Shut 'er down, Clancy!  She's pumpin' mud!"?

Edited March 14, 2021 by Kenngo1969

[CV75]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Isn't that the job of a prophet, seer and Revelator? To stand up against anybody that's lying and trying to damage the church. Who cares what the "scholars" claim. When Joseph got up and gave the King Follett discourse do you think he cared what the Christian scholars thought? Doesn't seem like he did to me. He was bold.

    A Seer is a Revelator and a prophet, a gift greater can no man have except he possess the power of God. A Seer can no of things which are past, and things to come and should know all things revealed, even secret things should be manifest, and hidden things should come to light, and things that are not known shall be known by them, which otherwise, could not be known.

     All I'm saying is it would of been great if the Brethren would of called Hoffman on his Bullcrap.

     

I think Mosiah 8:12-18 offers the best definition. Here is another good resource of related scriptural definitions: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/seer?lang=eng

The title means they are only authorized to function in these areas. The actual execution is another matter, a meeting of the Lord’s will and their readiness (spiritual power). Our interpretation and expectations are still another matter, a function of our familiarity with the Holy Ghost, and thankfully we have the gift of Holy Ghost to initiate that familiarity.

[Duncan]

On 3/12/2021 at 4:03 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

Totally agree. The "how" was the most interesting part. The processes Hoffman developed were quite ingenious, as was the way Throckmorton was able to prove they were forgeries. I do wonder how many forgeries are still out there being passed off as legitimate. I imagine testing has improved significantly from the 80's but how often are historical documents re-tested?

my guess is if one is proven to be a forgery then they would look at who donated them and then test the others and then go from there

[AtlanticMike]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Are you asking or wanting them to call such things out, or just expressing that it would be awesome if they would?

I want bold leadership. I want to do more as a church. I talked about this when I first came on here because it has really bothered me, I dont really know why. 

12 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What are some of the awesome things you have seen them do?

I've seen them say bold things, but I dont no about ever seeing them "do" anything bold. And that's just it, I want to see it. Nothing major, for me all I need is something different. Maybe exchange the suit for  work clothes and really get their hands dirty. Not for a day, I mean for a while. I want to be motivated through action. Is that bad to say?

18 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What are some examples of fraud that you see today that they, or you, would call out?

Today's society makes it almost impossible to call anything out. I dont need them to call anyone out. Here's an idea that would make me happy, I'm just throwing this out there. Since we cant, or wont use our churches for extra curricular activities, instead of having church in the church every week, let's do one or two services a month at a park, or stadium. Invite anyone to come, have people on the street with signs saying, "join us for sunday service". I would wave the chit out of that sign 🤣. That's what I mean when I say "bold". 

27 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Can you share an experience you've had with the Holy Ghost, especially in connection with carrying out your Melchizedek Priesthood responsibility or having priesthood power?

The best experience I have I've already shared on here,  well, atleast some of it. I had my friend stay in my garage for a while because he was strung out on drugs so bad his parents couldn't deal with him anymore. They weren't to blame, they had young kids to think about. I gave him somewhere to  stay even though he was doing drugs on my property and I new it. But I gave him a blessing while sitting on the garage floor holding him because he couldn't calm down. I didn't ask god to heal him, I asked God to give him clarity of thought so he could heal himself, overtime. I truly believe that prayer helped him understand god is there for him and he can accomplish what he wants in the future. He's doing it now, he's turned his life around. 

 

[AtlanticMike]

53 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

What if he's allergic to them?!  What will you do then, Hmmmm?* (*Please note, this post was intended solely as humor, and is not to be taken seriously in any way: Please don't start the: (1) misread what I wrote, (2) take offense based, not on what I wrote, but, rather, upon your misreading of what I wrote, (3) get your tender widdow feewings hurt, (4) lather, rinse, and repeat cycle.)

You think I should send him a picture of a bottle of Benadryl along with the flowers?🤣 good idea kenngo, I didnt think about that. Hey strappinglad, do you have a flavor preference? 🤣🤣

Edited March 14, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[Calm]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I see your point. But in the back of my mind, I just go, DANGIT! When i look at that picture. Almost like it was a lost opportunity

If they had said they were forgeries when experts were saying they were authentic, the claim of critics would be they were in denial, etc.  When he was finally exposed, critics could easily go to ‘they just happened to be right, it was wishful thinking that turned out to be true, nothing inspired about it.  Members might consider it faith promoting or not, but that doesn’t change how the Church is viewed by anyone.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

my guess is if one is proven to be a forgery then they would look at who donated them and then test the others and then go from there

If there are any private collectors or sellers possessing items from Hofmann, they might not want to share where they got them from as it could result in a significant loss of business by the seller and a devaluing of property of the collector...though I assume there must be some sort of documentation of provenance for it to have real value.  But some might just want to pass it on to family.  Hofmann did deal in some real stuff, so someone might comfort themselves they got the real deal.

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

More like, the first ones to produce a written, detailed analysis challenging it.

Jerald and Sandra Tanner may have been the first to doubt the authenticity of the Salamander letter in print, but they also had a rather unique opportunity to do so with their regular publication of the Salt Lake City Messenger, and the Tanners had some prior dealings with Hofmann.  Jerald recognized the similarity of the Salamander letter to something said in E. D. Howe's Mormonism Unvailed and he was suspicious that Hofmann was the one coming up with all of these documents.  Jerald expressed his "reservations" about the Salamander letter in their March 1984 issue of the Messenger.

It was in April 1985 that the church released it's own statement expressing the possibility that the document was forged.  President Gordon B. Hinckley said:

“No one, of course, can be certain that Martin Harris wrote the document. However, at this point we accept the judgment of the examiner that there is no indication that it is a forgery. This does not preclude the possibility that it may have been forged at a time when the Church had many enemies.” (News Release, 28 Apr. 1985.)

I think there were a lot of doubts about the authenticity of the documents going around at the time, but there just wasn't any way to prove it.   And it didn't help that several experienced document examiners were pronouncing the documents as "authentic".

[CV75]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

I want bold leadership. I want to do more as a church. I talked about this when I first came on here because it has really bothered me, I dont really know why. 

I've seen them say bold things, but I dont no about ever seeing them "do" anything bold. And that's just it, I want to see it. Nothing major, for me all I need is something different. Maybe exchange the suit for  work clothes and really get their hands dirty. Not for a day, I mean for a while. I want to be motivated through action. Is that bad to say?

Today's society makes it almost impossible to call anything out. I dont need them to call anyone out. Here's an idea that would make me happy, I'm just throwing this out there. Since we cant, or wont use our churches for extra curricular activities, instead of having church in the church every week, let's do one or two services a month at a park, or stadium. Invite anyone to come, have people on the street with signs saying, "join us for sunday service". I would wave the chit out of that sign 🤣. That's what I mean when I say "bold". 

The best experience I have I've already shared on here,  well, atleast some of it. I had my friend stay in my garage for a while because he was strung out on drugs so bad his parents couldn't deal with him anymore. They weren't to blame, they had young kids to think about. I gave him somewhere to  stay even though he was doing drugs on my property and I new it. But I gave him a blessing while sitting on the garage floor holding him because he couldn't calm down. I didn't ask god to heal him, I asked God to give him clarity of thought so he could heal himself, overtime. I truly believe that prayer helped him understand god is there for him and he can accomplish what he wants in the future. He's doing it now, he's turned his life around. 

 

Regarding bold leadership, are you leading out with what you want to see?

The Brethren may wear different work clothes than you do, but how does that make them less effective as disciples of Christ than you are? And if being visible is a priority, why do you post anonymously?

Our ward does precisely what you mention about service--in emergencies on Sundays as well, but typically Saturdays and other days of the week. We had a general authority join us on one Sunday when he was around (and he wielded a chain saw -- better stand back, everybody!). Isn’t your ward providing service, given any COVID-19 restrictions that might be preventing it? How involved are you in your ward's service projects?

I’ve heard our general authorities share similar experiences as you’ve just shared (in fact, I heard a couple just today from the same GA!); they are not uncommon. Of course they had a point other than describing how awesome it would be for a Seer to call out a fraud! 🤣🤣🤣 I think you might need to get out more!

Edited March 15, 2021 by CV75

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Our ward does precisely what you mention about service--in emergencies on Sundays as well, but typically Saturdays and other days of the week. We had a general authority join us on one Sunday when he was around (and he wielded a chain saw -- better stand back, everybody!). Isn’t your ward providing service, given any COVID-19 restrictions that might be preventing it? How involved are you in your ward's service projects?

Weve been doing service ever since I was young. I wasn't talking about service/projects, I'm talking about making, (you ready, here goes nothing, stand back) sunday fun, enjoyable, different. Ok, I understand I just upset alot of people, but the youth of today have a new body part a lot of us didn't have growing up, a CELL PHONE that is on 24/7 hours a day. The cell phone has changed the game. Going forward,  in my opinion, church services are going to have to change drastically over time to keep the youth interested. I gave one example already. If you're fine with the way it is, that's fine, but something inside me says the same old stuff we've been doing isnt going to keep the youth interested for long. You dont like my idea about church services at a stadium? maybe the whole stake, that would be cool in my opinion. 

[longview]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

If there are any private collectors or sellers possessing items from Hofmann, they might not want to share where they got them from as it could result in a significant loss of business by the seller and a devaluing of property of the collector...though I assume there must be some sort of documentation of provenance for it to have real value.  But some might just want to pass it on to family.  Hofmann did deal in some real stuff, so someone might comfort themselves they got the real deal.

I remember reading a statement from some Utah authority way back when, that forgeries (especially those as expert as Hofmann's) can be worth many times more than the "real deal".

[CV75]

11 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Weve been doing service ever since I was young. I wasn't talking about service/projects, I'm talking about making, (you ready, here goes nothing, stand back) sunday fun, enjoyable, different. Ok, I understand I just upset alot of people, but the youth of today have a new body part a lot of us didn't have growing up, a CELL PHONE that is on 24/7 hours a day. The cell phone has changed the game. Going forward,  in my opinion, church services are going to have to change drastically over time to keep the youth interested. I gave one example already. If you're fine with the way it is, that's fine, but something inside me says the same old stuff we've been doing isnt going to keep the youth interested for long. You dont like my idea about church services at a stadium? maybe the whole stake, that would be cool in my opinion. 

I missed the one about the stadium. What is your calling in your ward--many of your ideas could be brought up for discussion in ward council or your ward organization's council like Elders Quorum when they have their once-twice a month council session.

[HappyJackWagon]

16 hours ago, Duncan said:

my guess is if one is proven to be a forgery then they would look at who donated them and then test the others and then go from there

That assumes someone really wants to know that the document they spent a load of $$ on is really a forgery. I'm not sure that's always true.

Also, it can be a little complicated when going through the hands of multiple dealers.

[HappyJackWagon]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:37 PM, InCognitus said:

I thought the series answered this allegation rather well with the quotation from the letter of Gordon B. Hinckley as quoted by Richard E. Turley, Jr. in the video shortly after the Salamander letter was donated to the church:

"We'll have to accept, for the time being, the scientific evaluations of the examiners, but that does not mean that it could not have been a forgery from that time period, that was created for the purposes of hurting the Church."

I'm not sure what else they could have done differently.  Also, from what I recall from my book reading a couple of decades ago (and I may remember incorrectly), the church didn't purchase any of the documents, they were all donated to the church by others.

I don't recall when that letter was dated. Was it before or after Hoffman was caught and the forgeries were discovered? If it was after, my previous statement stands (IMO).

[Duncan]

24 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That assumes someone really wants to know that the document they spent a load of $$ on is really a forgery. I'm not sure that's always true.

Also, it can be a little complicated when going through the hands of multiple dealers.

ah, maybe now they have a famous forgery!!!!!! or maybe they suspect it is but want to pass it on to someone else so they can deal with it

provenance is key to documents and similar items

[AtlanticMike]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I missed the one about the stadium. What is your calling in your ward--many of your ideas could be brought up for discussion in ward council or your ward organization's council like Elders Quorum when they have their once-twice a month council session.

Here's another idea, what about a food truck once a month in the parking lot? 

[HappyJackWagon]

11 minutes ago, Duncan said:

ah, maybe now they have a famous forgery!!!!!! or maybe they suspect it is but want to pass it on to someone else so they can deal with it

provenance is key to documents and similar items

Totally agree. I don't know how the rare documents community works so maybe the fact that a document once passed through Hoffman's hands discredits the item, or maybe adds some color and mystery to the document, I don't know. But getting documents tested seems to be a rather expensive process and it doesn't seem realistic to me that every item documented to have passed through Hoffman would be retested, which is why I think there are likely forgeries out there still thought to be authentic. 

[CV75]

45 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Here's another idea, what about a food truck once a month in the parking lot? 

Yeah! On Fast Sunday!

[Tacenda]

18 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

More like, the first ones to produce a written, detailed analysis challenging it.

👍