Murder Among the Mormons on Netflix

[Calm]

God doesn’t give prophets all the info they might find useful. Jonah was shocked when Nineveh repents...kind of the reverse where a prophet did not recognize the good guys.

Nephi thought Laban would be willing to sell the plates and instead he tries to kill the brothers. 

Joseph thought Bennett was a great guy. 
 

I think God allows prophets to encounter evil like the rest of us instead of keeping them in bubble wrap because they have lessons to learn in mortality just like the rest of us. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

y whole life I looked at the priesthood as a power that gave a man the ability to distinguish between good and evil spirits.  Kinda like a bishop can do in a bishop interview before issuing a temple reccomend.

Have you never known a member who received a temple recommend who turned out to be having an affair or was dishonest in some other way?
 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Didn't know much about this story but decided to watch it because of this thread. One thing I've started to think about in the past few months is maybe I've looked at priesthood power a little to much like a super power. Kinda like the guy in the documentary who gave Mark Hoffman a blessing and if I remember correctly, he actually commanded God to make Mark live, could be wrong on the wording. But, at the same time, they show a picture of Mark with 5 Apostles, Seers and Revelators, looking at documents with a magnifying glass. I paused the movie on that part and really studied it. My whole life I looked at the priesthood as a power that gave a man the ability to distinguish between good and evil spirits.  Kinda like a bishop can do in a bishop interview before issuing a temple reccomend. How did these five Elders not know this man wasn't a complete fraud? Shouldn't the Holy Ghost be inside of them shouting, walk away, walk away, walk away! Isn't a Seer someone who sees with spiritual eyes, someone who clarifies? 

     

Often our personalities and limited understanding are stronger drivers for our behavior and actions than the Holy Ghost, and it takes a lifetime to cultivate a functional Gift and companionship of the Holy Ghost.

Case in point: the trust Joseph Smith placed in John C. Bennett (see Saints Volume 1). While this is a lesson about individual fallibility, the Brethren as a united group and the Church have prospered collectively no matter what foibles individuals have brought to the table. God does let bad things happen only because He ultimately prevails over them.

Fortunately, our leaders and we build upon our predecessors, and the Brethren have been individually fooled like this less and less over the decades.

[AtlanticMike]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Have you never known a member who received a temple recommend who turned out to be having an affair or was dishonest in some other way?
 

I understand, I'm not saying a bishop is perfect. But have you never found yourself in a situation where you feel like you need to stop doing something or just turn around and go the other direction? I have, and I attributed it to the influence of the Holy Ghost. I took one of my daughters off of a sports team because Within 2 minutes of hanging around the coach, something gave me a terrible feeling about the man. 6 or 7 years later we found out he was molesting his step daughter. That's all I'm asking, were was that influence in the room with Hoffman? Am I reading to much into this?

[Calm]

Yes, I have experienced that, but I also have had times when I wasn’t protected. I don’t think I was any more righteous in those protected times as others. We are told the rain falls on the just and unjust. Sometimes God hands us an umbrella and sometimes he lets us get wet, perhaps so we can be the ones giving out umbrellas for others in time. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Calm

[AtlanticMike]

12 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Often our personalities and limited understanding are stronger drivers for our behavior and actions than the Holy Ghost, and it takes a lifetime to cultivate a functional Gift and companionship of the Holy Ghost.

Case in point: the trust Joseph Smith placed in John C. Bennett (see Saints Volume 1). While this is a lesson about individual fallibility, the Brethren as a united group and the Church have prospered collectively no matter what foibles individuals have brought to the table. God does let bad things happen only because He ultimately prevails over them.

Fortunately, our leaders and we build upon our predecessors, and the Brethren have been individually fooled like this less and less over the decades.

Thank you. I'll read up on it Bennett, dont know the story.

[AtlanticMike]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yes, I have experienced that, but I also have had times when I wasn’t protected. I don’t think I was any more righteous in those protected times as others. We are told the rain falls on the just and unjust. Sometimes God hands us an umbrella and sometimes he lets us get wet, perhaps so we can be the ones giving out umbrellas for others in time. 

Home Depot has umbrellas for $4.99 right now🤣🤣🤣, atleast mine does, I bought 6. Sorry, couldn't resist. And thank you, I understand your point.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you. I'll read up on it Bennett, dont know the story.

So, we can see that these five men you are referring to (would you provide their names for me?), presumably acting in good faith, might have also been distracted from any warning they might have been receiving from the Holy Ghost.

[AtlanticMike]

56 minutes ago, CV75 said:

So, we can see that these five men you are referring to (would you provide their names for me?), presumably acting in good faith, might have also been distracted from any warning they might have been receiving from the Holy Ghost.

I just screenshot this for you, it has their names, also, this is what was on the documentary, don't remember what episode. And I understand what your saying about them possibly being distracted, but 5 Seers in one place, all looking at the same document? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but if there's ever going to be an opportunity for the Holy ghost to say, RUN!!!, this would be it, atleast to me. Like I said, maybe I need to adjust my perspective on what priesthood power means.

Edited March 14, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[InCognitus]

28 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I just screenshot this for you, it has their names, also, this is what was on the documentary, don't remember what episode. And I understand what your saying about them possibly being distracted, but 5 Seers in one place, all looking at the same document? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but if there's ever going to be an opportunity for the Holy ghost to say, RUN!!!, this would be it, atleast to me. Like I said, maybe I need to adjust my perspective on what priesthood power means.

I try to look at it from the Lord's point of view and the big picture about how things turned out in the Hofmann story.  

A biblical example that comes to mind is the story in Genesis 37, when the sons of Jacob sold their brother Joseph into Egypt, and then faked his death when they took his coat of many colors and dipped it in goat blood, and then brought the coat to their father, Jacob.  Now Jacob was at the very least a patriarch, and his name is even listed among the prophets in Luke 13:28.  But what was Jacob's response when his other sons presented to him Joseph's coat dipped in blood?  "And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat; an evil beast hath devoured him; Joseph is without doubt rent in pieces" (Gen 37:33).  For that moment Jacob was deceived by his own sons.  He may have been distracted by the emotion of the situation, but I think he just didn't get any kind of prompting on it, because the Lord used the envy and deceit of the sons of Jacob as a means to accomplish something else with Joseph (who was sold into Egypt) later on.  

I don't know what might have happened differently in the Hofmann story had any of the general authorities made it known they were prompted that the documents were forgeries.  We do know at least that (then) Elder Gordon B. Hinckley was skeptical about the Salamander document (but who wouldn't be, I certainly was at the time).  But without any forensic proof of a forgery, what could be said against it, and how would that sound to the public mind?  The news media would go wild with that.  Sometimes patience and a "wait and see" approach is the right approach.  Things may look kind of crazy for a short time, but in the end the Lord accomplishes his purposes.  

Edited March 14, 2021 by InCognitus

[CV75]

32 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I just screenshot this for you, it has their names, also, this is what was on the documentary, don't remember what episode. And I understand what your saying about them possibly being distracted, but 5 Seers in one place, all looking at the same document? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but if there's ever going to be an opportunity for the Holy ghost to say, RUN!!!, this would be it, atleast to me. Like I said, maybe I need to adjust my perspective on what priesthood power means.

If there’s an opportunity, He might take it and He might not; or, He might take it and they might not attend to it no matter how much priesthood power they have.

The same question could be asked of many situations with people and circumstances that Joseph Smith was involved with. Were not each “an opportunity for the Holy ghost to say, RUN!!!”? What are your thoughts on how that might apply to this situation where the Brethren are viewing the documents?

Were you confirmed a member of the Church, given the gift of the Holy Ghost, and ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood? If so, have you ever had similar opportunities for the Holy Ghost to say, ”RUN!!!” within your scope of responsibility? How do you know if He took that opportunity with you or not, or if you were too distracted by your own personality, foibles, interests, business at hand, etc. to hear Him?

There are a lot of good resources concerning all aspects of priesthood, including “priesthood power” on https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org .

Edited March 14, 2021 by CV75

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

I just screenshot this for you, it has their names, also, this is what was on the documentary, don't remember what episode. And I understand what your saying about them possibly being distracted, but 5 Seers in one place, all looking at the same document? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but if there's ever going to be an opportunity for the Holy ghost to say, RUN!!!, this would be it, atleast to me. Like I said, maybe I need to adjust my perspective on what priesthood power means.

Also, it bothers me that everyone including some scholars, didn't wonder how all of sudden Mark was finding all these documents within such a short time span. Even the Tanners suspected that something was amiss, as well as they were the first ones to doubt the Salamander letter. Or Mr. Tanner was, but that was left out on the cutting room floor and wasn't included in this documentary I guess, according to Sandra Tanner in an interview I just listened to. 

Edited March 14, 2021 by Tacenda

[InCognitus]

22 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Also, it bothers me that everyone including some scholars, didn't wonder how all of sudden Mark was finding all these documents within such a short time span. Even the Tanners suspected that something was amiss, as well as they were the first ones to doubt the Salamander letter. Or Mr. Tanner was, but that was left out on the cutting room floor and wasn't included in this documentary I guess, according to Sandra Tanner in an interview I just listened to. 

The Tanners like to say they were "the first ones to doubt" it, but that's not really accurate.  As I posted earlier in this thread (and as quoted in the Netflix series), Gordon B. Hinckley also doubted it. 

When I read about the Salamander letter in the 80's, I also doubted the authenticity of it, and it seemed suspicious to me that a lot of the documents were coming from Hofmann.  But what could you do or say about that?  I said something to my wife about it.  And I'm sure that Jerald and Sandra Tanner discussed with each other too.  

Edited March 14, 2021 by InCognitus

[strappinglad]

Had the Brethren claimed the documents were a forgery when eminent scholars claimed they were true , there would be a great cry that the church was just trying to cover up damaging history. It would have given the " Spaulding manuscript " a run for its money .

[Rain]

 

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Also, it bothers me that everyone including some scholars, didn't wonder how all of sudden Mark was finding all these documents within such a short time span. Even the Tanners suspected that something was amiss, as well as they were the first ones to doubt the Salamander letter. Or Mr. Tanner was, but that was left out on the cutting room floor and wasn't included in this documentary I guess, according to Sandra Tanner in an interview I just listened to. 

Why only give the Tanners the benefit of doubt?

I haven't watched or read anything except what was in the paper clear back then.  Real question: Did any church leader or scholar involved clearly state something like, "I never wondered.  I never doubted"?

Edited March 14, 2021 by Rain

[AtlanticMike]

50 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Had the Brethren claimed the documents were a forgery when eminent scholars claimed they were true , there would be a great cry that the church was just trying to cover up damaging history. It would have given the " Spaulding manuscript " a run for its money .

Isn't that the job of a prophet, seer and Revelator? To stand up against anybody that's lying and trying to damage the church. Who cares what the "scholars" claim. When Joseph got up and gave the King Follett discourse do you think he cared what the Christian scholars thought? Doesn't seem like he did to me. He was bold.

    A Seer is a Revelator and a prophet, a gift greater can no man have except he possess the power of God. A Seer can no of things which are past, and things to come and should know all things revealed, even secret things should be manifest, and hidden things should come to light, and things that are not known shall be known by them, which otherwise, could not be known.

     All I'm saying is it would of been great if the Brethren would of called Hoffman on his Bullcrap.

     

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Also, it bothers me that everyone including some scholars, didn't wonder how all of sudden Mark was finding all these documents within such a short time span. Even the Tanners suspected that something was amiss, as well as they were the first ones to doubt the Salamander letter. Or Mr. Tanner was, but that was left out on the cutting room floor and wasn't included in this documentary I guess, according to Sandra Tanner in an interview I just listened to. 

What interview if you don't mind me asking?

[AtlanticMike]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

What are your thoughts on how that might apply to this situation where the Brethren are viewing the documents?

Just that they had two choices, either the documents are real, or they're fake. And in my mind, how I grew up understanding the prompting of the Holy Ghost and then on top of that what a Seer is, I thought this meeting Hoffman had with 5 Seers would of been a awsome opportunity to call him on his crap. Is that asking to much, possibly,  I kind of see your point.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

What interview if you don't mind me asking?

Mormon Stories latest ones. 

[AtlanticMike]

3 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Sometimes patience and a "wait and see" approach is the right approach.  Things may look kind of crazy for a short time, but in the end the Lord accomplishes his purposes.  

I see your point. But in the back of my mind, I just go, DANGIT! When i look at that picture. Almost like it was a lost opportunity

[AtlanticMike]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Mormon Stories latest ones. 

Thank you

[Kenngo1969]

9 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Didn't know much about this story but decided to watch it because of this thread. One thing I've started to think about in the past few months is maybe I've looked at priesthood power a little to much like a super power. Kinda like the guy in the documentary who gave Mark Hoffman a blessing and if I remember correctly, he actually commanded God to make Mark live, could be wrong on the wording. But, at the same time, they show a picture of Mark with 5 Apostles, Seers and Revelators, looking at documents with a magnifying glass. I paused the movie on that part and really studied it. My whole life I looked at the priesthood as a power that gave a man the ability to distinguish between good and evil spirits.  Kinda like a bishop can do in a bishop interview before issuing a temple reccomend. How did these five Elders not know this man wasn't a complete fraud? Shouldn't the Holy Ghost be inside of them shouting, walk away, walk away, walk away! Isn't a Seer someone who sees with spiritual eyes, someone who clarifies? 

     

 

I’m not sure if you had a chance to look at the address from then-Elder Dallin H. Oaks, to which I linked earlier in the thread. Here is a “money quote”:

 

Quote

 

As everyone now knows, Hofmann succeeded in deceiving many: experienced Church historians, sophisticated collectors, businessmen-investors, national experts who administered a lie detector test to Hofmann, and professional document examiners, including the expert credited with breaking the Hitler diary forgery. But why, some still ask, were his deceits not detected by the several Church leaders with whom he met?

In order to perform their personal ministries, Church leaders cannot be suspicious and questioning of each of the hundreds of people they meet each year. Ministers of the gospel function best in an atmosphere of trust and love. In that kind of atmosphere, they fail to detect a few deceivers, but that is the price they pay to increase their effectiveness in counseling, comforting, and blessing the hundreds of honest and sincere people they see. It is better for a Church leader to be occasionally disappointed than to be constantly suspicious.

The Church is not unique in preferring to deal with people on the basis of trust. This principle of trust rather than suspicion even applies to professional archives. During my recent visit to the Huntington Library in Pasadena, California, I was interested to learn that they have no formal procedures to authenticate the many documents they acquire each year. They say they consider it best to function in an atmosphere of trust and to assume the risk of the loss that may be imposed by the occasional deceiver.

The entire address is worth a read: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1987/10/recent-events-involving-church-history-and-forged-documents?lang=eng

 

 

[AtlanticMike]

2 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

I’m not sure if you had a chance to look at the address from then-Elder Dallin H. Oaks, to which I linked earlier in the thread. Here is a “money quote”:

 

The entire address is worth a read: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1987/10/recent-events-involving-church-history-and-forged-documents?lang=eng

 

 

Thank you for that, I actually didnt see that, I'll take a look at the entire address. 

[strappinglad]

35 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Almost like it was a lost opportunity

And while they were at it they should have been able to forewarn those who were to be  killed by Hofmann. 👿

[AtlanticMike]

12 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

And while they were at it they should have been able to forewarn those who were to be  killed by Hofmann. 👿

I didn't say that, you know what, you win today, you gave me a purple satan so I dont see this conversation going anywhere.  Here's a purple bouquet of flowers I bought for you from William and Sonoma, will you be my friend? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Take a chill pill bro it's sunday.