Murder Among the Mormons on Netflix

[Calm]

Anyone watch it yet?

[bluebell]

I haven't.  I've read some write-ups on it, which haven't been bad towards the church.  One of the most interesting aspects of the series is that it's directed by the same guy who directed Napoleon Dynamite, who is a Latter-day Saint himself.

I've seen some discussion in my Facebook circles on it, all having been started by members.  I've seen reactions on those posts between "wow this is so interesting!" to "I know nothing about the church and I'm so confused" to "I hate that horrible cult, everyone knows they are a cult!" to "this has strengthened my testminoy of the Doctrine and Covenants" type stuff. 

So you know, pretty much how it always ends up.  

For those people who hate the church but who only know enough to be able to swing at the low-hanging fruit, the series is a perfect opportunity to gleeful rail against the organization and members (and for some disillusioned members it's a great opportunity to provide them with a venue to rail), for others it's a chance to learn something about an intriguing part of our history (and the history of Utah), and for others it's a chance to grow their relationship with God in new ways. 

[Meadowchik]

Yes, I did last night. On a related note, the church released an essay on the Hoffman forgeries recently:

Quote

 

Hofmann Forgeries

Mark W. Hofmann was a rare documents dealer and skilled forger who exploited public interest in Latter-day Saint and American history by selling authentic, altered, and forged historical documents in the early 1980s. In 1985, apparently worried his fraud might be detected, Hofmann used homemade bombs to murder two people, including one of his clients.

Many of Hofmann’s forgeries focused on Latter-day Saint history. Hofmann was a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who had privately stopped believing in God. By his mid-20s, he had become interested in historical works about the Church’s history and was familiar with documents that were mentioned in historical accounts but that had never been located, such as the copy of Book of Mormon characters Martin Harris had taken to classical scholar Charles Anthon.1 In 1980 Hofmann claimed to have found a copy of this transcript folded and placed between the pages of a 17th-century King James Bible. Scholars who evaluated the document believed it to be authentic based on the handwriting’s consistency with other confirmed samples of Joseph Smith’s writing and with Anthon’s descriptions of the characters. Acceptance of this forgery launched Hofmann’s career as a dealer of rare books and manuscripts.

A variety of techniques helped Hofmann convince scholars that his forgeries were genuine. He chose projects carefully to target documents that had likely once existed, and he studied their contexts extensively. He stole period paper and other materials from archives, made his own ink and artificially aged it, and carefully recreated postmarks to help his forgeries pass the scrutiny of document authenticators. He studied the idiosyncracies of the authors’ handwriting and could reproduce it with startling accuracy. His historical research and literary abilities allowed him to draft documents that reflected expected patterns of style, tone, and content. He created plausible stories about the origins and provenance of documents, sometimes planting a minor forgery in advance to lend credence to a subsequent higher-profile one. He obtained authentic rare documents by accepting them as payment in trade and then marketed both the authentic and forged materials. Sometimes he would make small changes to authentic documents or materials that would enhance their value. Numerous scholars from various fields unknowingly authenticated Hofmann forgeries.

Hofmann’s forgeries included documents from early American political and literary figures, ranging from mundane documents with forged signatures to short literary works. Hofmann forged several documents related to the Church, including letters by Joseph Smith, Lucy Mack Smith, and David Whitmer, among many others. He produced several forgeries focused on provocative aspects of the Church’s history, hoping to stir up controversy. He forged a blessing Joseph Smith purportedly gave to his son Joseph Smith III designating him as his father’s successor. He also forged an 1830 letter from Martin Harris (known as the “salamander letter”), which described Joseph Smith being involved in folk-magic practices.2 Hofmann deceived not only Church leaders and historians with his forgeries but also his family and friends, archivists and librarians, and other experts. The Church acquired several documents from him, and his forgeries became the subject of both scholarly inquiry and public discussion.

In 1985 Hofmann began negotiating for a $1.5 million sale of a forged document to the Library of Congress. At the time, Hofmann’s expenses on travel, luxuries, rare books, and forging materials exceeded his substantial income. Other clients were beginning to ask for items Hofmann had accepted payment for but not yet produced. Fearing detection under pressure, Hofmann dropped off a package with a homemade bomb that killed collector Steven F. Christensen. Hofmann had promised Christensen a collection of documents from disaffected early Apostle William McLellin but failed to produce them. To direct the attention of investigators away from himself and toward Christensen’s other business activities, Hofmann delivered a second bomb to the home of J. Gary Sheets, Christensen’s business associate, which killed Sheets’s wife, Kathy. The next day, near Temple Square, a third bomb exploded in Hofmann’s car before he was able to deliver it to an unidentified victim. That detonation quickly led police to incriminating evidence linking Hofmann to the bombings. Forensic experts examined Hofmann’s forgeries and discovered evidence that he had artificially aged the ink. He ultimately confessed to the murders and forgeries and received a sentence of five years to life in prison, with the judge recommending he never be released.

The greatest tragedies connected to the Hofmann forgeries are the deaths of Kathy Sheets and Steven Christensen. The forgeries also posed challenges to the work of manuscript and book collectors and dealers, historians, and archivists. While police investigation linked Hofmann to numerous forgeries, his networks of trade made it difficult to trace the extent and location of his work. Twelve years after the bombings, for example, a document believed by experts to be a genuine Emily ****inson poem was linked to Hofmann. False assumptions inspired by Hofmann documents or citations that eventually lead back to his fabricated evidence still distort some depictions of Latter-day Saint history.

Since the 1980s the Church has published extensively on its early history, helping to foster a greater understanding of some of the obscure historical episodes that Hofmann exploited in his forgeries to shed a negative light on the Church. Church historians and archivists have also exercised increased vigilance in corroborating claims of document provenance and historical context with other evidence. The publication and digitization of Joseph Smith’s papers and many other important document collections has helped broaden the base from which to evaluate new discoveries.

 

 The Deseret News also just published an article on the subject:

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2021/3/1/22307305/who-is-mark-hofmann-what-did-he-do-forgery-murder-among-mormons-lds-church-netflix-documentary?fbclid=IwAR1a2r4ms3rSmqfsAKq6KhJSjBxe7G27ASezQouNnUlbMMiEhrYfaoTwEmQ

[katherine the great]

I watched it. It contained much of the same information that the book Salamander did. I liked the interviews with Shannon Flynn (Hoffmans’s former friend) and Dorie Olds (Hoffman’s former wife). I would like to know something about their lives since the incident but I think they were smart to keep it about the bombings and the forgeries. I see most of the documentaries today that just lose their primary focus and drift off course. This one didn’t do that. 

[CA Steve]

Most may already know this but for a while Hofmann's cellmate in prison was LDS fundamentalist Dan Lafferty, infamous for murdering his sister-in-law and her 18 month old child in an act he and his brother Ron claimed was a revelation from God.

Those must of been some interesting conversations.

[PacMan]

It’s a fascinating show. I lived this season of history quite intimately. It turned worlds upside down. I thought Netflix’s attempt to sensationalize the docuseries left many of the details in disarray and confusion. Questions about the church’s role were asked to build suspense but never fully answered. And unless people have a basic understanding of Mormon history, it will be hard to follow (to understand the Salamander Letter, you have to understand not only why it would be used to authenticate a forged 116 pages, but why the 116 pages is important).  

I also think people should have been identified with their church affiliation, as was Tanner. Bias doesn’t render ones testimony incredible, but it can certainly paint it.

But it was very interesting and the interviews were engaging, even these many years later.

I know the man that gave Hofmann a blessing after his suicide attempt. As Shannon said, he had no idea he was blessing Satan.  Thank goodness Hofmann survived.  I can’t imagine the damage of not having answers.

Hofmann was plain evil. He exploited the fragility of both faith and science. He took two lives and destroyed many more, including families. Those that I know that lost their testimonies due (at least in part) to Hofmann never came back.  

Edited March 4, 2021 by PacMan

[PacMan]

8 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Most may already know this but for a while Hofmann's cellmate in prison was LDS fundamentalist Dan Lafferty, infamous for murdering his sister-in-law and her 18 month old child in an act he and his brother Ron claimed was a revelation from God.

Those must of been some interesting conversations.

Lafferry apparently likes (ed?) to bounce his revelations and theological ideas off Hofmann. Crazy. 

[Scott Lloyd]

In the aftermath of the Hofmann murders, there was talk of a movie being made. Some of us dreaded it and were relieved when no such project came to fruition. The dread was because of some of the inaccurate and scurrilous stuff that had been published in the mass media. 
 

This far removed from the events, though, this current project might not be bad, especially if done by competent people not unfriendly to the Church. I’ll reserve judgment on it. 

 

On a peripheral note, has anyone here heard of what has become of the movie Ron Howard was going to do based on the Krakauer book Under the Banner of Heaven? When I Google it, the latest I can ever learn is that it is “in development.”  I kind of hope that project dies of natural causes before it ever comes to the fore. 

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Anyone watch it yet?

Definitely on my watchlist. Maybe this weekend after I watch the Coming 2 America sequel  

[Jeanne]

Yes,  I watched it.  For the first time I got to see the faces of those who are talked about a lot.   I thought it was pretty good.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

On a peripheral note, has anyone here heard of what has become of the movie Ron Howard was going to do based on the Krakauer book Under the Banner of Heaven? When I Google it, the latest I can ever learn is that it is “in development.”  I kind of hope that project dies of natural causes before it ever comes to the fore. 

I have some real reservations about Krakauer's accuracy in his books, even though I generally enjoy them and own a couple.  I know that the people who were there during the events of his Into Thin Air book had some real issues with it and called him out on some things.

So as far as he is not fond of religion in the first place, and seemed to illustrate a real lack of understanding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in specific in the book, I also think that it would probably be good if the Under the Banner of Heaven movie didn't see the light of day.

[rongo]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have some real reservations about Krakauer's accuracy in his books, even though I generally enjoy them and own a couple.  I know that the people who were there during the events of his Into Thin Air book had some real issues with it and called him out on some things.

So as far as he is not fond of religion in the first place, and seemed to illustrate a real lack of understanding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in specific in the book, I also think that it would probably be good if the Under the Banner of Heaven movie didn't see the light of day.

When I taught junior high English, we read an acclaimed book called Three Cups of Tea, which I used to practice research, critical thinking, and argumentative reasoning with students. The book itself is about a man who got lost in the Karakorum mountains and was nursed to health by Pakistani villagers. He started a foundation to build schools in that region (Pakistan/Afghanistan), and the book describes the ups, downs, and adventures of that process (including a hair-raising story with Pashtun terrorists). The book itself is enjoyable and accessible, but John Krakauer came after it (extremely harshly) and depicted both Greg Mortenson and his foundation as a fraud. So, we used the book, Krakauer hit pieces, articles discussing the controversy (including other mountain climbers in climbing magazines), and television interview footage. Students could reach any conclusion, but needed to support their arguments with evidence. Krakauer portrayed Mortenson's whole story as largely made-up, including his alleged time with the villagers who nursed him back to health. But, other climbers (including one's on that trip) backed him up. 

Krakauer was so over-the-top, especially in the TV interviews, that the students started calling him "John Crackhead" (he does have a deranged madman look about him when he gets riled up).  I remember one student saying, "What is his problem?" Students did a pretty good job of building their cases, and most argued that the Greg Mortenson stories (mostly) really happened, but that he was bad at running the foundation (he wasn't a good businessman, corruption in those areas abounded, and he couldn't account for a lot of money). Schools really were built, but were often not used as schools by the villages (some housed goats in them, or used them to store supplies). Many villages could have used hospitals, wells, or other infrastructure but the purpose of the foundation was schools, so that's what were built. 

Joseph Smith and the Church aren't the only ones Krakauer has gone after.  

[rongo]

My "degrees of separation" with Mark Hoffman.

1) When we moved to Arizona in 2000, my wife was eight months pregnant with our first. I was doing pre-internet apologetic research (personal) then, and I called the Chenango County clerk Dale Storms (a woman, I found out) to confirm that the Neely bill (from Joseph Smith's 1826 examination) was actually there. She seemed a little unnerved, but I was polite and friendly. She asked if I wanted to make an appointment to look at it, and I told her that she had done everything I needed in confirming that it was in their possession, and that I couldn't come to New York if I wanted to, due to geography and work. I thanked her again, and ended the call. 

A few minutes later, the phone rang. It was Steven Sorenson from Church Archives (or the Church history department, I'm not exactly sure which). He asked if he was speaking with [my name], and I said yes. A little sheepishly, he said that he had just gotten a call from Dale Storms, and she was upset and suspicious and called him to "check me out." I was shocked --- our conversation was pretty short, and I hadn't done anything to shock or unnerve her. He told me that I needed to understand that they have been inundated with crackpots over the years, including a BYU professor who marched in with a court order demanding to see it, when all he needed to do was ask and make an appointment. What he told me next was new to me: he said that Mark Hoffman had been poking around in the basement where it was found a few months before Wes Walters and Fred Poffarl found the record --- and that Chenango County itself had had a vicious legal battle with Walters to get the record back from Yale (Walters had taken it without permission, he said, so he could see that it was preserved and that the Mormons didn't make it disappear). Chenango County was very upset with Walters, especially for removing it from its context and opening it up to claims of forgery or "monkey business." I did find it ***very*** interesting that young Hoffman (would have been pre-mission Hoffman) had been "poking around" in the basement before its discovery. Marquardt and Walters, in their book "Inventing Mormonism" give a detailed account of an exhaustive search for the record in California, Colorado, and Utah, before they providentially found it in the basement of the Chenango County courthouse (or was it the jail? It's been a few years). I know that he spent his mission in England ripping out period paper from old books in libraries, for later use, so planning forgeries did happen at a young age. 

2) A few years ago, a counselor in the Tempe Mission presidency asked me to meet with a man. This man, whom I have become good friends with, is obsessed with the Church (in a good way). He is atheist/agnostic, but is fascinated by all aspects of the Church. We've met several times for dinner, and we've had him and his wife over. His wife is a good sport --- she doesn't share his obsession, and drew the line at a summer trip to see the Hill Cumorah (she refused to go to Nauvoo with him the next summer). He loves talking about everything Church related, but knows that the missionaries and most members aren't able to really talk with him. The counselor in the mission presidency met with him, and then asked me to work with him. He has sort of an anthropological fascination with the Church, and was really happy to have someone he could talk to about anything and everything who would know what he was talking about. 

He met with the mission president, and recommended that he have me inoculate the missionaries from a position of faith. Not surprisingly, he wasn't keen on the idea.  I didn't know him, other than meeting him at stake conferences now and then. He told me during one of our meetings, "Did you know that President Christensen is the brother of the Bishop Christensen, whom Mark Hoffman killed?" I didn't know that. He said that he understandably didn't want to talk about it. 

3) When we moved to Arizona in 2000, the Utah Olympics had just ended. The day after the closing ceremonies, among the very positive media coverage, I read a newspaper article about the "John D. Lee lead scroll" that was discovered under suspicious circumstances (in a cabin built in the 1950s, on a concrete floor covered with rodent droppings and debris) by "an anonymous Park Service employee." The scroll claimed to be from John D. Lee, and directly blamed Brigham Young for the Mountain Meadows Massacre. A forensics team from Phoenix found that it was a forgery. Among other things, the lead oxidation wasn't close to old enough, and the writing had been scratched by a pyramid-tipped nail, which hadn't been invented when John D. Lee was alive. I remember being struck, though, that a roll of lead sheet with the same level of oxidation had been found in Mark Hoffman's home when it was searched after his arrest. 

That made me wonder just how many Hoffman forgeries there were that had not been executed yet, and were "out there," sleeper-cell style. Hugh Nibley recalled (in "The Terrible Questions" in "Temple and Cosmos") getting a letter from an inmate at Point-of-the-Mountain, whose testimony Mark Hoffman had been trying to destroy. It seems that, along with the money, a major motivation for his forgeries was discrediting the Church and making it look bad (and I know that some of his forgeries were from Americana, too. He didn't only to Mormon ones).

[longview]

58 minutes ago, rongo said:

It seems that, along with the money, a major motivation for his forgeries was discrediting the Church and making it look bad (and I know that some of his forgeries were from Americana, too. He didn't only to Mormon ones).

Who was going to be Mark Hofmann's third victim?  How many more would he have needed to murder?  His accidental explosion happened near Temple Squire, was some higher ups in the Church next on the list?

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, longview said:

Who was going to be Mark Hofmann's third victim?  How many more would he have needed to murder?  His accidental explosion happened near Temple Squire, was some higher ups in the Church next on the list?

He’s claimed that he was always the intended third target. The parole board did not seem to believe him. 

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

That made me wonder just how many Hoffman forgeries there were that had not been executed yet, and were "out there," sleeper-cell style.

I’ve wondered that too. I’m not a historian or particularly keenly interested in church history but the damage a person like Mark Hoffman can do-it’s just mind-boggling.

[katherine the great]

48 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 

54 minutes ago, longview said:

Who was going to be Mark Hofmann's third victim?  How many more would he have needed to murder?  His accidental explosion happened near Temple Squire, was some higher ups in the Church next on the list?

He’s claimed that he was always the intended third target. The parole board did not seem to believe him.

 

I don’t believe him either. He’s too much of a narcissist.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

My "degrees of separation" with Mark Hoffman.

1) When we moved to Arizona in 2000, my wife was eight months pregnant with our first. I was doing pre-internet apologetic research (personal) then, and I called the Chenango County clerk Dale Storms (a woman, I found out) to confirm that the Neely bill (from Joseph Smith's 1826 examination) was actually there. She seemed a little unnerved, but I was polite and friendly. She asked if I wanted to make an appointment to look at it, and I told her that she had done everything I needed in confirming that it was in their possession, and that I couldn't come to New York if I wanted to, due to geography and work. I thanked her again, and ended the call. 

A few minutes later, the phone rang. It was Steven Sorenson from Church Archives (or the Church history department, I'm not exactly sure which). He asked if he was speaking with [my name], and I said yes. A little sheepishly, he said that he had just gotten a call from Dale Storms, and she was upset and suspicious and called him to "check me out." I was shocked --- our conversation was pretty short, and I hadn't done anything to shock or unnerve her. He told me that I needed to understand that they have been inundated with crackpots over the years, including a BYU professor who marched in with a court order demanding to see it, when all he needed to do was ask and make an appointment. What he told me next was new to me: he said that Mark Hoffman had been poking around in the basement where it was found a few months before Wes Walters and Fred Poffarl found the record --- and that Chenango County itself had had a vicious legal battle with Walters to get the record back from Yale (Walters had taken it without permission, he said, so he could see that it was preserved and that the Mormons didn't make it disappear). Chenango County was very upset with Walters, especially for removing it from its context and opening it up to claims of forgery or "monkey business." I did find it ***very*** interesting that young Hoffman (would have been pre-mission Hoffman) had been "poking around" in the basement before its discovery. Marquardt and Walters, in their book "Inventing Mormonism" give a detailed account of an exhaustive search for the record in California, Colorado, and Utah, before they providentially found it in the basement of the Chenango County courthouse (or was it the jail? It's been a few years). I know that he spent his mission in England ripping out period paper from old books in libraries, for later use, so planning forgeries did happen at a young age. 

Yes, Wes Walters found the Judge Neely Bill of Costs in a basement jail cell, where it was moldering in the damp.  Wes was very sincere in his desire to get it into the hands of conservators at Yale.  After all, he knew for a fact that the original trial transcript had been made to disappear.

As to his first forgeries, Mark Hofmann began at least by age 15 by forging a coin, which was accepted as authentic by the Secret Service.  Thus, Mark rationalized that, if the Treasury Department declared his counterfeit to be genuine, then it was "genuine by definition" (Salt Lake County Prosecutors, Mark Hofmann Interviews, 408-410).

Quote

.............................

That made me wonder just how many Hoffman forgeries there were that had not been executed yet, and were "out there," sleeper-cell style. Hugh Nibley recalled (in "The Terrible Questions" in "Temple and Cosmos") getting a letter from an inmate at Point-of-the-Mountain, whose testimony Mark Hoffman had been trying to destroy. It seems that, along with the money, a major motivation for his forgeries was discrediting the Church and making it look bad (and I know that some of his forgeries were from Americana, too. He didn't only to Mormon ones).

Another of Mark's rationalizations was that his forgeries did not cheat anybody since they would not be discovered anyhow (Mark Hofmann Interviews, 407).  The day of the murders, Hofmann "said he wore his jacket and used the name Mike Hansen to leave little clues.  He was kind of hoping to get caught and thought that if they could catch him, they should."  For example, the gloves he used to handle the bomb for Christensen he tossed into a trash can outside the Judge Bldg just "to test fate" (Mark Hofmann Interviews, SS-10).  The same notion applies to his speaking to Elders Dallin Oaks and Hugh Pinnock the day of his murders – to see if they might actually have spiritual discernment and be able to see through his calm exterior – although such men had shown no such ability to him previously (SS-11).

Hofmann learned self-hypnosis and biofeedback (controlling galvanic skin response), etc., already at around age 13 or 14, and managed to pass his polygraph test by doing self-hypnosis the evening before in order to convince himself that he was innocent (NPR report, “Morning Edition,” July 31, 1987).  I cover that Polygraph failure online at https://www.scribd.com/doc/46291989/Virtual-Voodoo-The-Lie-Detector-Lie .

 Hofmann said "My personal opinion is any man would do what he could to protect himself.  That is the moral thing to do, seems to me" (Mark Hofmann Interviews, 389).  Like most sociopaths, Hofmann never showed any remorse.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Robert F. Smith

[Kenngo1969]

 

Quote

 

"Think I, every hour as the cop walks by, there, but for the grace of God, go I."

     —Hofmann doggerel

Oh.  You mean, you could be free, but you don't want to be?  Well, guess what?  That'll be no problem, Mr. Hofmann!  I'm sure the State of Utah will be more than happy to grant you your wish, permanently!

 

 

 

[Derl Sanderson]

6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Definitely on my watchlist. Maybe this weekend after I watch the Coming 2 America sequel  

You'll have to let us know if you think Hofmann is unworthy. 😕

[Derl Sanderson]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

I have some real reservations about Krakauer's accuracy in his books, even though I generally enjoy them and own a couple.  I know that the people who were there during the events of his Into Thin Air book had some real issues with it and called him out on some things.

So as far as he is not fond of religion in the first place, and seemed to illustrate a real lack of understanding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in specific in the book, I also think that it would probably be good if the Under the Banner of Heaven movie didn't see the light of day.

I remember this review from the old FARMS Review of Books on the Book of Mormon.

[Derl Sanderson]

I read both Salamander and Victims. I tried The Mormon Murders, but had to give it up because it was lame and totally biased. It's been a long time, but if I recall correctly, a large motivation for Hofmann in producing the Salamander Letter was that there were so very, very few examples of Martin Harris' handwriting. If Hofmann could have verification/acceptance of the letter, it would not only embarrass the Church in an of itself, but it would then also become the standard by which all other alleged Harris documents would be judged for validity. That would open the door to Hofmann producing the lost 116 pages, which he could have say anything he wanted with the end goal of undermining the entire foundation of faith claims for the BOM and consequently of the Church (plus make him a bazillion dollars).

[Duncan]

The crazy thing about forgeries is they themselves become valuable, it's most ironic. People want a "famous forgery". 

[Kenngo1969]

Others' mileage may vary, but personally, I'm not sure how purporting to find the 116 pages would rock the foundations of most astute readers of the Book of Mormon and of the Doctrine and Covenants.  Essentially, Nephi says, "Why the crap am I writing about this, since my dad already wrote about it?   Ah, well!  God knows!"  (Literally: God does know!)  And then, we have (purportedly) the Lord telling Joseph Smith, "No, don't try to retranslate the lost 116 pages: Your enemies will use that attempt against you if you try."  In light of what Nephi and the Lord have said on the subject, it would be tough for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as an institution and for its most astute members and readers of the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants to simply toss all of that aside. 

Do I think that what was lost in the 116 pages will come forth eventually?  Sure, but when that does happen, it will come from the same source that's responsible for the whole thing in the first place.  Otherwise, It's a great opportunity for someone to come forth with yet another last-days instance of "many-shall-come-forth-in-my-name, and-shall-deceive-many."  

[pogi]

I hate to spoil it for anybody but...Mark Hofmann did it.