Bombshell BYU announcement

[rongo]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not convinced the language is indicative of people of color so much as it is indicative of a “woke” ideology, an ideology that not all people of color share. 

Do people of color actually use expressions like "cultural taxation burden" or "BIPOC?" There has been discussion that Hispanics largely don't use "Latinx;" it's either academics, activists, or the media. I think my Hispanic students would roll their eyes at anyone saying "Latinx." And I really don't think my black students would have any idea what BIPOC means. How new is that term?

[CV75]

47 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not convinced the language is indicative of people of color so much as it is indicative of a “woke” ideology, an ideology that not all people of color share. 

How would you have written the recommendation(s) that give you the greatest heartburn over what you consider to be ideological terminology?

Friendly challenge: pick a couple and channel your best William E. McLellin!  I would really be interested in seeing another perspective in how this could have been better presented. Thank you!

PS As a journalist, I think you are a great pick to do this!

 

[CV75]

29 minutes ago, rongo said:

Do people of color actually use expressions like "cultural taxation burden" or "BIPOC?" There has been discussion that Hispanics largely don't use "Latinx;" it's either academics, activists, or the media. I think my Hispanic students would roll their eyes at anyone saying "Latinx." And I really don't think my black students would have any idea what BIPOC means. How new is that term?

Yes and no. But my point is that I think the wording is not so much an identifier that the speaker is non-white, but that it resonates and relatates to the non-white experience and ear.

The BIPOC origin, 2013 (footnote 22):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color ("The term aims to emphasize the historic oppression of black and indigenous people, ")

 

 

[AtlanticMike]

40 minutes ago, rongo said:

Do people of color actually use expressions like "cultural taxation burden" or "BIPOC?" There has been discussion that Hispanics largely don't use "Latinx;" it's either academics, activists, or the media. I think my Hispanic students would roll their eyes at anyone saying "Latinx." And I really don't think my black students would have any idea what BIPOC means. How new is that term?

I just asked one of the black guys on my crew if he knows what a BIPOC is and he said he thought it was a high end Mercedes Benz 🤣🤣🤣🤣. I told him no, that was a maybach, and then I told him what BIPOC stood for and he said he would punch the person that called him that. He's a cool dude but you don't want to get on his bad side.

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I just asked one of the black guys on my crew if he knows what a BIPOC is and he said he thought it was a high end Mercedes Benz 🤣🤣🤣🤣. I told him no, that was a maybach, and then I told him what BIPOC stood for and he said he would punch the person that called him that. He's a cool dude but you don't want to get on his bad side.

Share this article with him and see what he thinks, and whether he thinks its use is appropriate for the BYU recommendations : The BIPOC origin, 2013 (footnote 22):https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color ("The term aims to emphasize the historic oppression of black and indigenous people"). Of course you're his white boss so he might tread carefully 🤣🤣🤣🤣.

Edited March 4, 2021 by CV75

[BlueDreams]

14 hours ago, provoman said:

What would you propose for the tie-breaker. It almost seems that where applications are comparable and essentially tie, that the final decision should not involve a human.

 

I would first assume there would be more “ties” in mechanized processes than there would be holistic approaches. By nature, mechanized approaches are more likely to take superficial looks at students and usually it’s on the superficial/achievement level that students end up with tied marks. I know I keep going back to my masters, but it’s the only one that I got to visibly interact, later hear about, and even marginally participate in the process. When we got to interviews, we were chosen based on our general achievements/scores: essays, profiles, schools, GPA’s, etc. We were effectively all feasible candidates for the program. The second half, which took “holistic” approach to a whole new level, entailed getting better “reads” off of us. Even the current students (though we didn’t realize it) were evaluating  us on our personalities and whether we were socially competent (important for when you’re a therapist...it’s not a place to be super socially awkward). The more details you have about the person the less “ties” you’ll likely have. 
 On top of that, it’s not just about whether you meet basic requirements, it should be about whether you add to the academic environment of the school in some way. That can include interesting perspectives, experiences, or capacity. Not all (or even most) of these would be race related in any given day. It may be a differing academic portfolio that may add unique talents or skills....such as the one woman in my program who had done an English major instead of the usual psych-related tracks. But I don’t think it’s wrong having something race related be included in that. Diversity adds to the academic experience and enhances the value of an education not just for BIPOC peoples but for the entire student body. I was often the only or handful of BIPOC voices in discussions on campus in any given class and to be frank often my role as student was blurred to teaching by often becoming the minority perspective in topics. The presence of minorities can literally change the direction of discourse and learning experiences in one’s education.
And that was before my grad work. In grad school as a therapist, my background was/is invaluable. I’m a cultural chameleon, my background was by far one of the most diverse, and it gave me a leg up in therapeutic settings and my capacity to perspective take. It was second nature for me to jump into other people’s shoes and experiences. Though others definitely had other strengths, there’s simply not an exact equivalent in experience that I saw in my white colleagues. That’s not bad. They had experiences that I didn’t that they could also promote. But pretending race and cultural differences don’t matter in an increasingly pluralistic and globally tied society is folly. Which is why I’m glad Byu did this report and will hopefully use it to create an academic experience more friendly to diversity and diverse perspectives. 
that a long way of saying, if their ethnic background can break a “tie” in meeting the goals of the college for a solid education, than use it. If the other white person has another set of experiences that would add to the college, then admit that one. If both are truly “tied” then waitlist one and hope they both get in in the end. 

Quote

I understand your point about the "cultural bias" , how would the reverse of your analogy be avoided, where reviewer (because of their culture) is more familiar with hoop dancing than ballet. 

The reverse is extremely unlikely to happen. I’m reading this book that made a solid argument about the continued racial  separation  in the US...this issue effects white people more than brown/black. For a white person it’s feasible to have BIPOC’s experiences on the periphery of their radar. For most BIPOC people that is less possible to a be completely ignorant of the dominant cultural expectations and values. It permeates everything and becomes more prominent, not less so, in places like BYU. You don’t need to be a dancer to know that a kid who competed in ballet as a teen and did well in it likely put in a lot of work to get there and that it says something about their character and work ethic. It’s similar to how I know vague lines from classic movies I’ve never seen. The dominant us culture promotes said messages. The dominant US culture tends to marginalize the experiences, genres, interests, etc found in minority groups. So these experiences, unless you actively seek for them, are less available for consumption and influence. 
 

with luv,

BD 

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Do people of color actually use expressions like "cultural taxation burden" or "BIPOC?" There has been discussion that Hispanics largely don't use "Latinx;" it's either academics, activists, or the media. I think my Hispanic students would roll their eyes at anyone saying "Latinx." And I really don't think my black students would have any idea what BIPOC means. How new is that term?

Latinx is newish and you’re right, it isn’t largely catching on. I’ve heard some younger kids use it, but overall it’s not a thing. BIPOC is like using internet slang outside of the internet. How many people would know what BoM or CoJCoLDS meant even if lds? The context tends to throw people off because the acronym isn’t used in IRL. I’m far more like to hear the individual race or “person of color” or brown/black, etc. 

that said I don’t think it’s much of a problem or even surprise that a report meant for an academic setting to academic faculty is using more academic than common vernacular language. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

Edited March 4, 2021 by BlueDreams

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

How would you have written the recommendation(s) that give you the greatest heartburn over what you consider to be ideological terminology?

Friendly challenge: pick a couple and channel your best William E. McLellin!  I would really be interested in seeing another perspective in how this could have been better presented. Thank you!

PS As a journalist, I think you are a great pick to do this!

 

If a “woke” mentality is what it was intended to convey, I doubt any change I make would be deemed acceptable. So I guess I’ll pass. 

[CV75]

22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If a “woke” mentality is what it was intended to convey, I doubt any change I make would be deemed acceptable. So I guess I’ll pass. 

Are you saying you cannot reword any recommendation(s) to be more palatable to the reader without changing its basic meaning?

If that's the case, the wording is the only way the recommendations can be effectively expressed, and shouldn't be criticized.

Bit if it isn't, the criticisms over the wording alone are valid.

Of course there will be criticism over the intent/meaning of the recommendation(s) no matter how worded, but that is not the aim of my friendly challenge.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Are you saying you cannot reword any recommendation(s) to be more palatable to the reader without changing its basic meaning?

If that's the case, the wording is the only way the recommendations can be effectively expressed, and shouldn't be criticized.

Bit if it isn't, the criticisms over the wording alone are valid.

Of course there will be criticism over the intent/meaning of the recommendation(s) no matter how worded, but that is not the aim of my friendly challenge.

I’m simply saying that if the intent, be it spoken or implied, is to convey a “woke” mindset, then any rewording I might do that would remove that element from the text would by definition be regarded as unacceptable and thus an exercise in futility. I’d rather go play the guitar or fertilize the lawn or do something else for my own amusement. 

[CV75]

21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m simply saying that if the intent, be it spoken or implied, is to convey a “woke” mindset, then any rewording I might do that would remove that element from the text would by definition be regarded as unacceptable and thus an exercise in futility. I’d rather go play the guitar or fertilize the lawn or do something else for my own amusement. 

Let's give the report the benefit of a doubt and say the intent is to convey the charge, as reviewed in the cover letter and elsewhere in the document, to recommend  "practical strategies for historic, transformative change at BYU in order to more fully realize the unity, love, equity, and belonging that should characterize our campus culture and permeate our interactions as disciples of Jesus Christ," and not to convey a "woke" mindset.

[Ipod Touch]

On 3/1/2021 at 10:20 AM, rongo said:

I don't think it's currently at 70% for freshmen --- especially after this year. 70% seems **very** high, even before all of this.

That's exactly what I was thinking.

In my BYU days, I understood the acceptance rate as very very low.  I'm not sure exactly where I heard that but I know it was mentioned in at least a couple of firesides.

70% acceptance is pretty pathetic. Certainly not the rate of a top-tier University.

For comparison:

Ohio State at 54% - https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ohio-state-6883

University of Florida at 36% - https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-florida-1535/applying

University of Utah  at 62% - https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-utah-3675

I never thought I would see the day UoU would be more selective than BYU.  Back in my day, it was where you went if you couldn't get in to BYU but still wanted to be in the massive LDS dating pool.

ETA: Good grief I'm old.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Ipod Touch

[Scott Lloyd]

25 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Let's give the report the benefit of a doubt and say the intent is to convey the charge, as reviewed in the cover letter and elsewhere in the document, to recommend  "practical strategies for historic, transformative change at BYU in order to more fully realize the unity, love, equity, and belonging that should characterize our campus culture and permeate our interactions as disciples of Jesus Christ," and not to convey a "woke" mindset.

You are welcome to give it the benefit of the doubt. I won’t begrudge your doing so. 
 

For my part, I’ll maintain a wait-and-see stance. I’ve observed too much of the “White Fragility” and “Be less white” sort of sloganeering lately to do otherwise. 

[CV75]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You are welcome to give it the benefit of the doubt. I won’t begrudge your doing so. 
 

For my part, I’ll maintain a wait-and-see stance. I’ve observed too much of the “White Fragility” and “Be less white” sort of sloganeering lately to do otherwise. 

Are you saying then, that you are offended both by the "woke" language used in the report and by the awareness raised in the report through its findings and recommendations?

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Ipod Touch said:

That's exactly what I was thinking.

In my BYU days, I understood the acceptance rate as very very low.  I'm not sure exactly where I heard that but I know it was mentioned in at least a couple of firesides.

70% acceptance is pretty pathetic. Certainly not the rate of a top-tier University.

For comparison:

Ohio State at 54% - https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/ohio-state-6883

University of Florida at 36% - https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-florida-1535/applying

University of Utah  at 62% - https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/university-of-utah-3675

I never thought I would see the day UoU would be more selective than BYU.  Back in my day, it was where you went if you couldn't get in to BYU but still wanted to be in the massive LDS dating pool.

I don't think the acceptance rate really is 70%, no matter what the website says. That's really, really high, and doesn't square with the numerous rejections. 

If true, then BYU is much less selective than I thought. 

Philosophical differences aside, it was the stinginess with scholarships that turned us off. While offering our son a half-tuition (he had a 34 ACT and was our valedictorian), we still were on the hook for the other half of tuition, plus housing and meal plan plus expenses. Compared with full-ride at other places (ASU, UofA, and NAU), it was no contest. The student wards have been better for him and our daughter than the experience would have been at BYU, based on friends and former students of mine who didn't like it (granted, this Covid year might not be fair to compare). 

I was also a poor student who got zilch from BYU (I did have an Illinois-specific alumni scholarship that helped somewhat). I vowed at the time that I would endow a scholarship for students with at least a 3.0 who also worked 30 hours a week, if I were ever wealthy.  I also piled up on credit hours to get more bang for my buck (18-22, depending on the semester. I had to get special permission for that). 

What would happen if, after these changes (some, or all) are implemented, someone set up a private scholarship for white students? Do you think BYU would allow that? I don't (not that I'm saying it should, but I'm sure that would be deemed discriminatory. Non-BIPOC scholarships would have to be open to all). 

I wonder how many BIPOC scholarships will end up being created, in total, from this initiative? 

 

[AtlanticMike]

On 3/3/2021 at 10:17 AM, rongo said:

I do unskilled day labor construction during the summer --- which generally means "construction cleanup." Since the trades ***do not*** do their own cleanup, and throw junk all over the place all the time, there is endless job security. I've seen that the trades make much more than I do as a teacher. For me, it's supplemental, on-the-side money when I'm off for the summer. It's also been a good summer job for my children (18+). My son made $5000 before his mission just in a few months, and both he and my daughter are looking forward to making a few thousand this summer in preparation for the upcoming school year (and beyond). 

The trades are very hard work, though, and hard on the body. The atmosphere also isn't the best (as I'm sure you can attest to). I think it is a wonderful work opportunity for those who want a very good income, are willing to work hard, and enjoy it. Many people don't want to do that for a lifetime (several decades), and are less disposed to blue collar work. It all depends on the person, but as you mention, there is plenty of work out there right now with the construction boom.

It's also cyclical. When the real estate bubble burst from 2007-2010, there was very little commercial or residential construction. My summer work dried up, which wasn't catastrophic since it was supplemental for me, but it was catastrophic for those whose livelihood it was.  

If your looking for something that's not that hard of work, look into dump trailers and charging people to haul their trash away. Of course you'll also need a truck, but one of the guys I use for trash pickup is actually a full time police officer and does trash pickup on the side. He can make 4 to $500 on a full day of dump runs. You tube has alot of guys telling you the ins and outs of the dump trailer hustle.

[Scott Lloyd]

10 hours ago, rongo said:

I don't think the acceptance rate really is 70%, no matter what the website says. That's really, really high, and doesn't square with the numerous rejections. 

If true, then BYU is much less selective than I thought. 

Philosophical differences aside, it was the stinginess with scholarships that turned us off. While offering our son a half-tuition (he had a 34 ACT and was our valedictorian), we still were on the hook for the other half of tuition, plus housing and meal plan plus expenses. Compared with full-ride at other places (ASU, UofA, and NAU), it was no contest. The student wards have been better for him and our daughter than the experience would have been at BYU, based on friends and former students of mine who didn't like it (granted, this Covid year might not be fair to compare). 

I was also a poor student who got zilch from BYU (I did have an Illinois-specific alumni scholarship that helped somewhat). I vowed at the time that I would endow a scholarship for students with at least a 3.0 who also worked 30 hours a week, if I were ever wealthy.  I also piled up on credit hours to get more bang for my buck (18-22, depending on the semester. I had to get special permission for that). 

What would happen if, after these changes (some, or all) are implemented, someone set up a private scholarship for white students? Do you think BYU would allow that? I don't (not that I'm saying it should, but I'm sure that would be deemed discriminatory. Non-BIPOC scholarships would have to be open to all). 

I wonder how many BIPOC scholarships will end up being created, in total, from this initiative? 

 

Based on anecdotal experience, I don’t believe the acceptance rate is nearly that high. As in, if your GPA falls below 3.5, I doubt you have a chance. 
 

There could be some self-selection (or self-exclusion) stemming from word getting around about the high academic standards. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Ipod Touch]

13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As in, if your GOA falls below 3.5, I doubt you have a chance.

I would even say higher than that.  I've known folks top 10 in their HS class who didn't get in. 

[Danzo]

8 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I just asked one of the black guys on my crew if he knows what a BIPOC is and he said he thought it was a high end Mercedes Benz 🤣🤣🤣🤣. I told him no, that was a maybach, and then I told him what BIPOC stood for and he said he would punch the person that called him that. He's a cool dude but you don't want to get on his bad side.

In my and (others I Know,) bipoc is just a bigoted term to try and creat a false duality among cultures.  Its a way making sure people know what side they are on.

[Danzo]

FYI 

My  two children (whom most people here would call BIPOC)  just  applied for BYU provo  and were rejected so obvously BYU Provo is racist.

 

The good news is they were both accepted by BYU Idaho, so BYU Idaho isn't racist. 

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, CV75 said:

Are you saying then, that you are offended both by the "woke" language used in the report and by the awareness raised in the report through its findings and recommendations?

The “woke” language fuels my wariness about the ideological basis and intent for the recommendations. 
 

Added later: For example, take the word “equity” in the cover letter you quoted. I don’t know how aware you are of this, but of late, that has become something of a buzzword in the “wokeness” debate, wherein “equity” is contrasted in meaning with “equality.” For an explanation, see this article from Winston-Salem State University:

https://www.wssu.edu/strategic-plan/documents/a-summary-of-equity-vs-equality.pdf
 

From the article:

“The terms equality and equity are often used interchangeably; however, they differ in important ways. Equality is typically defined as treating everyone the same and giving everyone access to the same opportunities. Meanwhile, equity refers to proportional representation (by race, class, gender, etc.) in those same opportunities.”

Some folks, seeing the word “equity” in the written proposals at BYU, might be misled into thinking what is meant is equality of opportunity, when what might actually be contemplated is equity in the allocation and disbursement of scarce resources and privileges as defined above. 
 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

I would first assume there would be more “ties” in mechanized processes than there would be holistic approaches. By nature, mechanized approaches are more likely to take superficial looks at students and usually it’s on the superficial/achievement level that students end up with tied marks. I know I keep going back to my masters, but it’s the only one that I got to visibly interact, later hear about, and even marginally participate in the process. When we got to interviews, we were chosen based on our general achievements/scores: essays, profiles, schools, GPA’s, etc. We were effectively all feasible candidates for the program. The second half, which took “holistic” approach to a whole new level, entailed getting better “reads” off of us. Even the current students (though we didn’t realize it) were evaluating  us on our personalities and whether we were socially competent (important for when you’re a therapist...it’s not a place to be super socially awkward). The more details you have about the person the less “ties” you’ll likely have. 
 On top of that, it’s not just about whether you meet basic requirements, it should be about whether you add to the academic environment of the school in some way. That can include interesting perspectives, experiences, or capacity. Not all (or even most) of these would be race related in any given day. It may be a differing academic portfolio that may add unique talents or skills....such as the one woman in my program who had done an English major instead of the usual psych-related tracks. But I don’t think it’s wrong having something race related be included in that. Diversity adds to the academic experience and enhances the value of an education not just for BIPOC peoples but for the entire student body. I was often the only or handful of BIPOC voices in discussions on campus in any given class and to be frank often my role as student was blurred to teaching by often becoming the minority perspective in topics. The presence of minorities can literally change the direction of discourse and learning experiences in one’s education.
And that was before my grad work. In grad school as a therapist, my background was/is invaluable. I’m a cultural chameleon, my background was by far one of the most diverse, and it gave me a leg up in therapeutic settings and my capacity to perspective take. It was second nature for me to jump into other people’s shoes and experiences. Though others definitely had other strengths, there’s simply not an exact equivalent in experience that I saw in my white colleagues. That’s not bad. They had experiences that I didn’t that they could also promote. But pretending race and cultural differences don’t matter in an increasingly pluralistic and globally tied society is folly. Which is why I’m glad Byu did this report and will hopefully use it to create an academic experience more friendly to diversity and diverse perspectives. 
that a long way of saying, if their ethnic background can break a “tie” in meeting the goals of the college for a solid education, than use it. If the other white person has another set of experiences that would add to the college, then admit that one. If both are truly “tied” then waitlist one and hope they both get in in the end. 

The reverse is extremely unlikely to happen. I’m reading this book that made a solid argument about the continued racial  separation  in the US...this issue effects white people more than brown/black. For a white person it’s feasible to have BIPOC’s experiences on the periphery of their radar. For most BIPOC people that is less possible to a be completely ignorant of the dominant cultural expectations and values. It permeates everything and becomes more prominent, not less so, in places like BYU. You don’t need to be a dancer to know that a kid who competed in ballet as a teen and did well in it likely put in a lot of work to get there and that it says something about their character and work ethic. It’s similar to how I know vague lines from classic movies I’ve never seen. The dominant us culture promotes said messages. The dominant US culture tends to marginalize the experiences, genres, interests, etc found in minority groups. So these experiences, unless you actively seek for them, are less available for consumption and influence. 
 

with luv,

BD 

This is off topic but you are the poster child for why the argument for social determinism- that "individual" free agents do not exist because we are all "programmed" by our cultures, is simply false. 

This argument has been used to argue that unique individuals with their own subjective points of view do not exist, because we are all virtual robots programmed by culture. In philosophy this is called the "death of man" thesis, and is important in arguments for and against free will  https://g.co/kgs/pL5obe

Bax argues that the cultural diversity that is the essence of our lives makes an argument that the self is culturally contingent very weak at best

 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Rain]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This is off topic but you are the poster child for why the argument for social determinism- that "individual" free agents do not exist because we are all "programmed" by our cultures, is simply false. 

This argument has been used to argue that unique individuals with their own subjective points of view do not exist, because we are all virtual robots programmed by culture. In philosophy this is called the "death of man" thesis, and is important in arguments for and against free will  https://g.co/kgs/pL5obe

Bax argues that the cultural diversity that is the essence of our lives makes an argument that the self is culturally contingent very weak at best

 

 

Are you saying she only thinks the way she does because of her culture?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Are you saying she only thinks the way she does because of her culture?

He is saying the reverse, social determinism is false. 
 

She is unique with her own unique perspectives and she couldn’t exist if social determinism was true, therefore SD is false. 
 

Mfb can confirm or correct if I read it right 

Not sure I agree with the logic of the original because everyone is exposed to multiple cultures which could yield a unique set of influences on them, yielding unique yet socially determined individuals, etc...

Determinism has other problems when we add eternally existing beings. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Danzo said:

false duality among cultures.

Are you suggesting there is only one culture or what?