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Priesthood blessings and evidence


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13 hours ago, Emily said:

Well the Catholics decided unrepentant priests could perform ordinances, and ended up with the reformation and Protestants.

I don't know why there is all this straw picking. There is a vast difference between an unrepentant sinner and a repentant one.

The priesthood power is gone when a man violates his covenants and hasn't gone through the necessary steps for repentance. Sometimes the only step needed is a slap to the head and getting his mind back on track, sometimes it requires excommunication. I don't really understand why this is even a discussion.

So why do you think I'm getting push back from people when I ask if priesthood power is diminished because of sin, even sin that would be considered "minor"? Am I reading the quotes I provided wrong? 

    I understand what Scott is saying, but to me priesthood power is like a dimmable light bulb, and sin is what turns down the light, the more sin, the less the bulb shines. Is that kinda what you're saying?

    I came back to add this, here's a better way to explain how I see priesthood power. I'm not good at analogies, but here goes nothing. Every boy/man is given a dimmable bulb,that being priesthood power, the bulbs power is limitless, just like pres. Kimball said in the page I provided, but while here on earth, god has put a wattage limit on it, let's say it's 100 watts. When we're given that bulb/priesthood power, the bulb is set at 50 watts. Sin turns the wattage down, perfecting our life/ righteous living, turns the wattage up. Does that make sense? Or is that to old school? 

  Also, if you live a righteous life, die, and reach eternal life, that 100 watt limit is removed, becoming a limitless power.

Edited by AtlanticMike
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On 2/27/2021 at 8:02 AM, AtlanticMike said:

The priesthood is the power and authority of God, delegated to man on earth, to act in all things for the salvation of men. Where the Melchizedek priesthood is, there is the church and kingdom God on earth, there is the gospel of salvation, and where there is no Melchizedek Priesthood , there is no true church, and no power that will save men in the kingdom of God.

   The words above are very powerful. And my question today is, if millions of men holding this priesthood power are congregated in a small area compared to the surrounding area, should there be evidence of priesthood miracles in that specific area? I'm talking about Utah. Utah is 60% mormon and compared to east coast states that usually have a 1% mormon population, I would think more priesthood blessings are being  administered in Utah than anywhere else. 

     For example, should Utah children hospitals see an increase in miraculous healings because of Worthy Mormon fathers giving  60x the amount of blessings in Utah compared to a southern state? If priesthood power and the power to heal is real, should it be measurable using Utahs density of Mormon priesthood holders compared to everywhere else in the world?

     

Check out St. Augustines works, also the Benedict option, you might like it.  Not quite the same angle you're going at but anytime Christian clergy popped up and worked with lay people, they tended to live far better than those in other cities.  Better food, learning, farming etc.  Take away the privilege a lot of people in the USA have and all of a sudden drinking water, food and stable communities are a miracle.  

Think the most cringe thing I ever saw was people making Seahawks Rosaries, geee way to go you have a nice privileged, upper class WASP existence and you think God should let your favorite football team win.....

 

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26 minutes ago, poptart said:

Check out St. Augustines works, also the Benedict option, you might like it.  Not quite the same angle you're going at but anytime Christian clergy popped up and worked with lay people, they tended to live far better than those in other cities.  Better food, learning, farming etc.  Take away the privilege a lot of people in the USA have and all of a sudden drinking water, food and stable communities are a miracle.  

Think the most cringe thing I ever saw was people making Seahawks Rosaries, geee way to go you have a nice privileged, upper class WASP existence and you think God should let your favorite football team win.....

 

I'll check that out, thank you

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On 3/4/2021 at 4:45 AM, poptart said:

Not quite the same angle you're going at but anytime Christian clergy popped up and worked with lay people, they tended to live far better than those in other cities.

Anytime people live by the guidelines set out by Christ, they end up living better lives. That part occurs with, or without, priesthood authority or regardless of your adherence to particular doctrinal theories, because God's way is the right way to do things if you want a happier mortal existence.

Which is exactly why it's always going to be difficult, in any theoretical study of the collective effects of "priesthood power" to seperate the highly individualized effects of blessings from the generalized effects of living God's commandments. Any community with a large number of available worthy priesthood holders is also going to be living the "plan of happiness" and therefore also displaying general trends of being blessed.

 

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30 minutes ago, Emily said:

Anytime people live by the guidelines set out by Christ, they end up living better lives. That part occurs with, or without, priesthood authority or regardless of your adherence to particular doctrinal theories, because God's way is the right way to do things if you want a happier mortal existence.

Which is exactly why it's always going to be difficult, in any theoretical study of the collective effects of "priesthood power" to seperate the highly individualized effects of blessings from the generalized effects of living God's commandments. Any community with a large number of available worthy priesthood holders is also going to be living the "plan of happiness" and therefore also displaying general trends of being blessed.

 

I'm a cultural Christian at best, going to guess you and I would probably not agree on things.  Also, people in other cultures have lived with different ethical systems that could easily pass for Christ like, Buddhism is a great example.  Read up on king Ashoka sometime, amazing guy.  

I do disagree with people living solely by guidelines set out by Christ or any diety/demi god, also I do think you can use priesthood authority quite easily.  When St. Benedict helped get the monastic system going Europe was in a very chaotic state, it's difficult for a privileged American of the WASP persuasion to understand this when so many of them have lived privileged entitled lives.  Take away their homes, their families, the police and societal protections they've felt entitled to since childhood and yeah priesthood/clergy protections are spectacular.  For all the faults of the Medieval Church the power they wielded make kings quiver in fear.  When you can set up a monastic/religious community that enjoys temporal protection, that says something.  Same thing with the royal priesthood in the bible, they had power.  

 

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2 hours ago, poptart said:

Also, people in other cultures have lived with different ethical systems that could easily pass for Christ like, Buddhism is a great example.  Read up on king Ashoka sometime, amazing guy.  

I don't disagree with you, which is why I said, "That part occurs with, or without, priesthood authority or regardless of your adherence to particular doctrinal theories, because God's way is the right way to do things if you want a happier mortal existence."

We appear to be defining "priesthood" differently, hence the perceived disagreement. LDS members tend to add a capitol "P" to the word, while you are talking about priesthood as it's defined by the rest of the world. IE: "The office or position of a priest."

It would be redundant to define "Priesthood" (capitol "P") here on the message forum, as other people have already done a good job writing up definitions. (Links to a couple of articles below.) If you are interested in the LDS perspective on other religions, I've provided an article for that as well.

LDS Perspectives Regarding Non-Christian Religions
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1988/01/i-have-a-question/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-to-the-non-christian-religions-of-the-world?lang=eng

Definition of Priesthood
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/priesthood?lang=eng

The Difference Between Power and Authority
https://kealakai.byuh.edu/general-authorities-and-byu-hawaii-religion-professor-share-difference-between-priesthood-authority-and-priesthood-power

 

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44 minutes ago, Emily said:

I don't disagree with you, which is why I said, "That part occurs with, or without, priesthood authority or regardless of your adherence to particular doctrinal theories, because God's way is the right way to do things if you want a happier mortal existence."

We appear to be defining "priesthood" differently, hence the perceived disagreement. LDS members tend to add a capitol "P" to the word, while you are talking about priesthood as it's defined by the rest of the world. IE: "The office or position of a priest."

It would be redundant to define "Priesthood" (capitol "P") here on the message forum, as other people have already done a good job writing up definitions. (Links to a couple of articles below.) If you are interested in the LDS perspective on other religions, I've provided an article for that as well.

LDS Perspectives Regarding Non-Christian Religions
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1988/01/i-have-a-question/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-to-the-non-christian-religions-of-the-world?lang=eng

Definition of Priesthood
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/priesthood?lang=eng

The Difference Between Power and Authority
https://kealakai.byuh.edu/general-authorities-and-byu-hawaii-religion-professor-share-difference-between-priesthood-authority-and-priesthood-power

 

Ops, my mistake thought you were.  I am mostly secular but tend to look at the mainline, esp. Catholic power structures as my reference for Christian authority, know not everyone does.  As I said though, i'm a cultural Christian at best.

I am very much about the authority of religious orders both lay and clergy.  Big reason why I like the LDS structure here stateside, outside of the Catholic church the other bodies have done a fine job of destroying themselves, watching it from the outside is like watching a structure fire.  I have a few LDS relatives as well a a parent who went to BYUH, like the last article, I always give brownie points to BYHU and most things from the islands, most religious institutions here stateside I scrutinize far, far more due to life experience plus the political/entitled/racist slant so many have, I do tend to judge the ones here by what their membership does, it's just expedient and practical in my experience.

BTW, had no idea the LDS church uses a capital P, thanks for sharing.  I always liked how the LDS church decentralized the clergy more than anyone, it's practical.  Thing is, it only works so long as the membership is high quality, educated and well, kind, most Latter Day Saints i've known easily fall into that mold.  With me, i've had experiences with other bodies both here stateside and outside the states so yeah, my opinions will probably be quite a bit different than many here.  

I look at the Church as an institution, different take than what most people here stateside do.  My experience has been the American Christian experience is all about a "Personal relationship" that leaves accountability, personal responsibility and following the rules of Christ and the church in a grey area.  Across the pond while many people are dunked in a Catholic or Protestant church, they really don't believe it.  Flip side is, as a society they sure follow it more.  In say Germany businesses are closed on Sunday and Holidays by law, abortion is difficult to get and is pretty much a criminal offence after the first trimester and Bavaria by law has crucifixes on display in public buildings.  Good luck getting that here, people will spout Christ while saying the hell with the poor I got mine right after.  I think of Christ was to walk in your average suburbanite church they'd want him arrested for trespassing.  Also the Catholic Church is still a huge employer, many of their orders do things you really don't see here because of politics and funding.  At least we have this here.

Order of Malta Clinic - YouTube

Another thing that the LDS church gets brownie points from me for, they work with other charities here a lot.  They work with local charities here as well as Catholic Charities, my personal favorite one.

 

Edited by poptart
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3 hours ago, poptart said:

They work with local charities here as well as Catholic Charities, my personal favorite one.

I had a Stake calling (volunteer work) with Deseret Industries for a few years. Part of our training included factoids on LDS charity operation. It was explained to us that the general policy of the church is to partner with existing charities in an area (provided they meet church standards for accountability, etc.) as it's more cost effective, efficient, etc. The Catholic church is a favored partner in all the countries where the Catholics have been around for awhile. I would imagine the Catholic Church is very efficient and cost effective given their centuries of experience. 😄

 

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1 hour ago, Emily said:

I had a Stake calling (volunteer work) with Deseret Industries for a few years. Part of our training included factoids on LDS charity operation. It was explained to us that the general policy of the church is to partner with existing charities in an area (provided they meet church standards for accountability, etc.) as it's more cost effective, efficient, etc. The Catholic church is a favored partner in all the countries where the Catholics have been around for awhile. I would imagine the Catholic Church is very efficient and cost effective given their centuries of experience. 😄

 

I've heard the same from members, DI does a lot.  I like how people donate worthwhile things (Most of the time....), night and day difference compared to say, good will.

Pretty much, they still build a ton of hospitals, the Franciscans are buying up stuff in the midwest left and right, at least that's what friends told me.

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