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1 hour ago, poptart said:

I'll just leave this here, curious what people's thoughts are.

New pagan temple in Iceland marks the revival of European Paganism (newsgram.com)......................

The article pushes a number of falsehoods, including ignoring the survival of Buddhism into modern times.

The term "pagan"  is highly prejudicial, and "pagan" religions are merely the religions which were crushed by another religion.  Christianity is simply one of the strongest forms of "paganism" to survive into modern times.  People just don't realize that the cult of the dying & rising god is at least 5,000 years old, with nearly all of the later motifs already in place at the outset.

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20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The article pushes a number of falsehoods, including ignoring the survival of Buddhism into modern times.

The term "pagan"  is highly prejudicial, and "pagan" religions are merely the religions which were crushed by another religion.  Christianity is simply one of the strongest forms of "paganism" to survive into modern times.  People just don't realize that the cult of the dying & rising god is at least 5,000 years old, with nearly all of the later motifs already in place at the outset.

Was just using a popular word for those of the non Abrahamic faiths, no insult intended.  I've been called pagan before, I take it with pride. 

Tell that to many Christians here stateside, they insist they won and throw a hissy fit when their privilege is threatened.  It's like a free spectator sport.
 I've defended latter day saints and Muslims from entitled relatives here, when I ask why their churches do nothing to help the poor it's almost always the same answer, not my problem.   

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1 hour ago, poptart said:

Was just using a popular word for those of the non Abrahamic faiths, no insult intended.  I've been called pagan before, I take it with pride. 

Tell that to many Christians here stateside, they insist they won and throw a hissy fit when their privilege is threatened.  It's like a free spectator sport.
 I've defended latter day saints and Muslims from entitled relatives here, when I ask why their churches do nothing to help the poor it's almost always the same answer, not my problem.   

Yeah, that happens a lot. I served my mission in Germany (1972-74) and there were two types of religious organizations: Churches and Sects. The Catholics and Lutherans were Churches, but everything else was a Sect. Church, good; Sect, NOT.  Including the LDS. 

I think Robert was just trying to make a point; I doubt he was insulted.

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2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The article pushes a number of falsehoods, including ignoring the survival of Buddhism into modern times.

The term "pagan"  is highly prejudicial, and "pagan" religions are merely the religions which were crushed by another religion.  Christianity is simply one of the strongest forms of "paganism" to survive into modern times.  People just don't realize that the cult of the dying & rising god is at least 5,000 years old, with nearly all of the later motifs already in place at the outset.

This actually serves to illustrate that the doctrine of the resurrection was alive and well from the very beginning. In the post-Noachian disaspora true doctrine went in many directions, but you can find traces of it everywhere.

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3 hours ago, poptart said:

I'll just leave this here, curious what people's thoughts are.

New pagan temple in Iceland marks the revival of European Paganism (newsgram.com)

Also this.  Microsoft Edge has a translate feature.

Ásatrúarfélagið (asatru.is)

 

The old religion has been dead for centuries. It's no surprise that, having abandoned what was formerly a continent-wide faith (Christianity), people are searching for something to believe in.

No real surprise.

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41 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Yeah, that happens a lot. I served my mission in Germany (1972-74) and there were two types of religious organizations: Churches and Sects. The Catholics and Lutherans were Churches, but everything else was a Sect. Church, good; Sect, NOT.  Including the LDS. 

I think Robert was just trying to make a point; I doubt he was insulted.

Lol on paper i'm part of "the church".  

Hail Woden, Hail Shaku sama

37 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The old religion has been dead for centuries. It's no surprise that, having abandoned what was formerly a continent-wide faith (Christianity), people are searching for something to believe in.

No real surprise.

Part of the reason why I posted this, curious what people will have to say.  I like the people here, for the most part they're open minded and I can have a dialogue with them.  I don't think it's been dead entirely, the Church had this habit of letting them keep some trappings of their old beliefs, look at Krampus.  Wish we had him stateside, that would be cool.

I have a theory, once organized religion/philosophy/structure goes, people return to tribalism, beliefs included.  Big reason why Christianity spread?  Trade, also power.  Not much has changed, in Germany they still wield a ton of power, flip side is they also do a lot of good.  Here stateside, most of the denominations are in decline, covid really accelerated it.  Outside of say, the LDS and Catholic Church the family and community structure just isn't there, it's more like a glorified WASP club.  Churches in ethnic communities?  Different story.  

Not like the heathen communities are much better, it's a mixed bag.  Some people are larpers, others are well, kinda racist.  I kinda chuckle at anyone who's say, 1/4 German, 1/4 French, 1/2 a mixture of who knows what and still thinks of themselves as some kind of ubermensch.  The Asatru group in Iceland looks neat.

Ever hear of Varg Vikernes?

 

  

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12 hours ago, poptart said:

Part of the reason why I posted this, curious what people will have to say.  I like the people here, for the most part they're open minded and I can have a dialogue with them.  I don't think it's been dead entirely, the Church had this habit of letting them keep some trappings of their old beliefs, look at Krampus.  Wish we had him stateside, that would be cool.

Well, one hasn't heard that much about the old religion -- and given that after Christianity got established as part of the power structure, anyone who didn't attend the correct church every Sunday could very easily find themselves in the stocks or something, they would have had to be doing it seriously underground.

12 hours ago, poptart said:

I have a theory, once organized religion/philosophy/structure goes, people return to tribalism, beliefs included.  Big reason why Christianity spread?  Trade, also power.

Perhaps, in places. But there was serious missionary activity in the early days, and a lot of genuine converts, including many of the rulers. Here in the UK, Christianity was established in England and Wales under the Roman Empire, but after Rome abandoned Britain, there was a migration of Angles, Saxons and Jutes into the area in the 400s, and Christianity was extinguished except in parts of Wales and Cornwall. It was replaced by the German polytheism brought by the Anglo-Saxons. In the 600s Pope Gregory I sent about 40 missionaries to Britain to restore Christianity, and they arrived in Kent, where they converted Æthelberht, King of Kent, whose wife, Bertha of Kent, was a Frankish princess and a practising Christian. From there Æthelberht consented to their further missionary activity in his kingdom, and by 650ish Christianity was firmly re-established in southeast England. From there it spread further. Of course you're right, that it wasn't all without a certain amount of politicking at some level -- specifically Pope Gregory getting the support of some of the Christian Gaulish rulers to back the missionary expedition, and the appointment of Augustine himself as the head of the mission. But it makes perfect sense to do whatever is needed to make the mission successful.

Actually, the case of Æthelberht seems somewhat similar to the Book of Mormon story of Ammon who went on a mission to the Lamanites under King Lamoni. He converted the king and his wife, and this led to the conversion of the people -- not through power, but by an outpouring of faith. You can read about that story HERE.

12 hours ago, poptart said:

  Not much has changed, in Germany they still wield a ton of power, flip side is they also do a lot of good.  Here stateside, most of the denominations are in decline, covid really accelerated it.  Outside of say, the LDS and Catholic Church the family and community structure just isn't there, it's more like a glorified WASP club.  Churches in ethnic communities?  Different story.  

Not like the heathen communities are much better, it's a mixed bag.  Some people are larpers, others are well, kinda racist.  I kinda chuckle at anyone who's say, 1/4 German, 1/4 French, 1/2 a mixture of who knows what and still thinks of themselves as some kind of ubermensch.  The Asatru group in Iceland looks neat.

I'm 9/16 German, 1/4 British, 1/8 French and 1/16 American Indian. Perhaps that diversity makes me an Übermensch! The best parts of several heritages, like a bundle of rods being stronger than a single rod. 

Or maybe I'm delusional....

12 hours ago, poptart said:

Ever hear of Varg Vikernes?

Not until this moment. Just looked him up. Listened to a bit of his music. Not impressed. I suppose the most I get out of it is the fact of him being a convicted murderer and arsonist. What about him?

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29 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, one hasn't heard that much about the old religion -- and given that after Christianity got established as part of the power structure, anyone who didn't attend the correct church every Sunday could very easily find themselves in the stocks or something, they would have had to be doing it seriously underground.

Perhaps, in places. But there was serious missionary activity in the early days, and a lot of genuine converts, including many of the rulers. Here in the UK, Christianity was established in England and Wales under the Roman Empire, but after Rome abandoned Britain, there was a migration of Angles, Saxons and Jutes into the area in the 400s, and Christianity was extinguished except in parts of Wales and Cornwall. It was replaced by the German polytheism brought by the Anglo-Saxons. In the 600s Pope Gregory I sent about 40 missionaries to Britain to restore Christianity, and they arrived in Kent, where they converted Æthelberht, King of Kent, whose wife, Bertha of Kent, was a Frankish princess and a practising Christian. From there Æthelberht consented to their further missionary activity in his kingdom, and by 650ish Christianity was firmly re-established in southeast England. From there it spread further. Of course you're right, that it wasn't all without a certain amount of politicking at some level -- specifically Pope Gregory getting the support of some of the Christian Gaulish rulers to back the missionary expedition, and the appointment of Augustine himself as the head of the mission. But it makes perfect sense to do whatever is needed to make the mission successful.

Actually, the case of Æthelberht seems somewhat similar to the Book of Mormon story of Ammon who went on a mission to the Lamanites under King Lamoni. He converted the king and his wife, and this led to the conversion of the people -- not through power, but by an outpouring of faith. You can read about that story HERE.

I'm 9/16 German, 1/4 British, 1/8 French and 1/16 American Indian. Perhaps that diversity makes me an Übermensch! The best parts of several heritages, like a bundle of rods being stronger than a single rod. 

Or maybe I'm delusional....

Not until this moment. Just looked him up. Listened to a bit of his music. Not impressed. I suppose the most I get out of it is the fact of him being a convicted murderer and arsonist. What about him?

Hence why I asked.  I have Asatru/wicca friends IRL, they'd argue otherwise.  According to them, there was this great concentrated effort to resist the Christian church.  Personally,  I don't buy it, besides food/crops and later on hospitals and universities the church was a net good for Europe.  As cool as the Eddas and Wagner was/is, before the church came along there was no writing.  I doubt runes could have done the job of preserving tales of the likes of the Volsungs if monks had not written it down in Latin.  

I was referring more to say, the Saxons, Danes etc.  It was brutal with them.  Then again, the Saxons sure liked to rebel.  With the UK, it was also trade and political ties wasn't it?  I mean, after Rome fell, i'd imagine having a shot at re-establishing ties and trade to the continent would have been most welcome.  Thor is awesome but the Christian religion that tied the contient together had the craftsman, learning etc.  What was left of it post western Rome anyway.

I agree, the UK was a different matter, it was far kinder there.  King Athelstan was one of my favs.  As much as I like Lutheranism I'm still kinda partial to Anglicanism, they're so Catholic.  My understanding is the Church of England has very cordgial ties with Rome.  I saw some of the Christmas videos they cranked out, very pleasant.  

Christmas 2020 | Comfort and Joy | The Church of England - YouTube

Hmm, something else I'd keep in mind with England.  Unlike say, a lot of Northern Europe they already had exposure to the Christian religion, they knew what good it was capable of.  Lets look at your follower of the old gods in other places, they viewed them as foreign oppressors at best.  Imagine what the Danes had to say when widukind fled and told them about what happened at Verdun?  My understanding of Denmark, Norway and Scandinavia is it's cold, harsh and has a short growing season.  In addition to the poor crops they'd had for a while there was constant warfare.  I'd imagine they were terrified of the Christian Franks, hearing of people to the south who believed similarly to themselves was likely cause for great alarm.  Sure, they were probably enemies on any other given day but with some foreign element that had no respect to for their gods, traditions and world view?  In a way that might have been like their 9/11, who knows.  

I read somewhere a while ago that supposedly even a lot of Europeans are mixed with other ethnic groups, they've spent so many thousands of years raiding, raping and killing each other they're more alike than they realize, especially in the UK.  Also, I doubt you're like some of the people here who think they're better than everyone else and we should impose their Americanized views of racial imperialism on the rest of the country and world, you strike me as someone who's far more level headed and rational; I don't take you as say, someone like Richard Spencer.

Varg is a madman.  I dunno, I like a few of Burzums songs.  

BURZUM - The Land of Thulê (2020) - YouTube

He had a series of videos on youtube that were taken down, thulean perspective.  Most of it was ranting but some of his stuff on Nordic beliefs, survivalism etc. was interesting.  There was and still is a sizeable part of the internet that follows him.  What he had to say about politics and scarcity was true.  I'm somewhat a fan of deep ecology, all for going back to the land as much as possible, he sure is.  Also, he had a few videos that totally ripped on the American alt right and those who like Richard Spencer thought of themselves as the cream of the crop.  He remined people that Norway and a lot of Europe emptied their jails and sent their undesirables here.  Like I said, he's a madman but was and is still interesting to watch if you're into deep ecology, Nordic/Germanic beliefs/culture, sustainable living and the like.  Not saying he's right, just saying his stuff is interesting at times.  

 

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Given how poorly understanding of currently existing religions is often transmitted, I have to wonder how accurate any recreation/reconstruction of ‘old religion’ can be.

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21 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The article pushes a number of falsehoods, including ignoring the survival of Buddhism into modern times.

The term "pagan"  is highly prejudicial, and "pagan" religions are merely the religions which were crushed by another religion.  Christianity is simply one of the strongest forms of "paganism" to survive into modern times.  People just don't realize that the cult of the dying & rising god is at least 5,000 years old, with nearly all of the later motifs already in place at the outset.

There are a number of members that associate Wodin with Jesus and the Nordic people with Israel.  These folks tend to have been associated with the patriot movement, particularly in the 80s and 90s.  Bruce C, Wydner, Cleon Skousen were very friendly toward these types of ideas.  Of course there are normal mainline downright socialistic Church of Sweden types who hold similar "paganistic" ideas.  

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Given how poorly understanding of currently existing religions is often transmitted, I have to wonder how accurate any recreation/reconstruction of ‘old religion’ can be.

Search Asatru on youtube, some guys out there are pretty decent, others?  Lol not so much.  A lot of the stuff here stateside seems like such a larp.  Think what bothers me is how political it is here, like everything else anymore.  Seems like the ones in Iceland just want to practice their beliefs, worship their concept of deity, do their ceremonies, drink their mead and call it good, works for me.  

To be fair, look at Christianity esp. stateside, it's changing and in some cases not for the better.  People will scream to the high heavens about it but hey, truth hurts but it does set you free.  My attitude is if certain denominations here can elect presidents who act like tyrants and make up rules for the membership that don't apply to them, people can read the Eddas, Sagas etc. and go with it.  

1 hour ago, Douglas Avans said:

There are a number of members that associate Wodin with Jesus and the Nordic people with Israel.  These folks tend to have been associated with the patriot movement, particularly in the 80s and 90s.  Bruce C, Wydner, Cleon Skousen were very friendly toward these types of ideas.  Of course there are normal mainline downright socialistic Church of Sweden types who hold similar "paganistic" ideas.  

Woden did hang himself from Yggdrasil then descend to helheim for wisdom....

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I love Norse mythology but sadly experience has taught me that over half the time if you run into someone claiming to be a follower of it you are talking to a white supremacist. It has been coopted since the Nazis and as each symbol becomes generally known outside of the ‘cult’ they pick another Norse symbol or, just as often, a Norse symbol more subtly used by Nazis someone just found. It is like they are polluting the whole thing. Even back just before and during the Second World War C.S. Lewis, a lover of Norse myth, mocked the Nazis for trying to claim it without any understanding of it.

In regards to the article I found it downright silly who they described pagan worship. We only have a very vague idea of how the worship was conducted, what their highest virtues were, how worship was conducted, etc. That is the problem with not keeping a lot of written records. I seriously doubt it was the kind of inclusive faith the devotees in that article portrayed it as. It is the same with Wicca where they claim to be restoring some ancient faith but it turns out it is completely palatable to the mindset and culture where it is introduced. Wotanism is dead. We don’t have enough information to recreate it and our culture would reject it if we did.

That being said I love Norse myth. I probably loved Odin (and Aslan and Eru and other gods) more than I loved God in childhood because they seemed more accessible and more sympathetic. Ironically as a kid I never drew the “Aslan is Jesus” metaphor for several years after reading the series (read when I was 8 and I think I was 11 when I caught on). I hate that reading Norse myth makes people look at me askance. One more reason to despise Nazis I guess.

Edited by The Nehor
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9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That being said I love Norse myth. I probably loved Odin (and Aslan and Eru and other gods) more than I loved God in childhood because they seemed more accessible and more sympathetic. Ironically as a kid I never drew the “Aslan is Jesus” metaphor for several years after reading the series (read when I was 8 and I think I was 11 when I caught on). I hate that reading it makes people look at me askance. One more reason to despise Nazis I guess.

This...except Heavenly Father and Jesus were in a different category for me, so I didn’t compare them.  Probably best to describe I delighted in the company of the other gods while I depended on Heavenly Father and Jesus.

I don’t remember how long it took me to realize people were seeing Aslan as Jesus.  I still don’t.  There is overlap in how I sense the Creation and the creation story in the Silmarillion...ach, I have lost the ability to spell that correctly.

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

This...except Heavenly Father and Jesus were in a different category for me, so I didn’t compare them.  Probably best to describe I delighted in the company of the other gods while I depended on Heavenly Father and Jesus.

I don’t remember how long it took me to realize people were seeing Aslan as Jesus.  I still don’t.  There is overlap in how I sense the Creation and the creation story in the Silmarillion...ach, I have lost the ability to spell that correctly.

Ever look into the Indo-European of Norse/Germanic myth?  Greece and the Germanics all trace it to the same source.  If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, check out the Vedas.  

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14 minutes ago, poptart said:

Ever look into the Indo-European of Norse/Germanic myth?  Greece and the Germanics all trace it to the same source.  If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, check out the Vedas.  

I pretty much went down all the rabbit holes I could find as I was pushed into overdrive in Junior High when I discovered a fantastic series of mythologies of other countries in the school library.So familiar with quite a few, Greek was probably deepest (got hooked on that in Elementary with this book:  

https://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943

Norse was second.

The problem was finding stuff because it had to be from the library as I couldn’t afford to buy anything.  The Internet showed up before I got to the state of financially comfortable and that sort of overwhelmed me, so haven’t really delved into anything past 20 years scholastically, just fun adaptations like Chinese fantasy dramas (I will look up something if it hints at traditional folktale).

I had the Rig Vedas (is it plural? spacing on that, think so) on my shelf until my recent purge (with my energy level I am starting now for a move in 3 to 4 years of trimming down to essentials so as to make life low maintenance).

Edited by Calm
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12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I love Norse mythology but sadly experience has taught me that over half the time if you run into someone claiming to be a follower of it you are talking to a white supremacist. It has been coopted since the Nazis and as each symbol becomes generally known outside of the ‘cult’ they pick another Norse symbol or, just as often, a Norse symbol more subtly used by Nazis someone just found. It is like they are polluting the whole thing. Even back just before and during the Second World War C.S. Lewis, a lover of Norse myth, mocked the Nazis for trying to claim it without any understanding of it.

In regards to the article I found it downright silly who they described pagan worship. We only have a very vague idea of how the worship was conducted, what their highest virtues were, how worship was conducted, etc. That is the problem with not keeping a lot of written records. I seriously doubt it was the kind of inclusive faith the devotees in that article portrayed it as. It is the same with Wicca where they claim to be restoring some ancient faith but it turns out it is completely palatable to the mindset and culture where it is introduced. Wotanism is dead. We don’t have enough information to recreate it and our culture would reject it if we did.

That being said I love Norse myth. I probably loved Odin (and Aslan and Eru and other gods) more than I loved God in childhood because they seemed more accessible and more sympathetic. Ironically as a kid I never drew the “Aslan is Jesus” metaphor for several years after reading the series (read when I was 8 and I think I was 11 when I caught on). I hate that reading it makes people look at me askance. One more reason to despise Nazis I guess.

This was why I posted this here, figured I'd get some interesting feedback.  That's about how I felt too, really the only sources they have were written down by Christian monks.  There are subsets of Asatru who claim the Christians were horrible to them, that's only partially true.  Quit blaming the big bad Christians for being nice enough to not only write your own myth down (as well as the bible, classical western philosophy, geometry etc...) but also teach people how to grow crops and raise livestock so you wouldn't have to raid each other all the time.  

Like I said to Calm, if you want to go down the rabbit hole, check out the Vedas.  Most of your run of the mill racists are too lazy to really read anything scholarly. 

Norse pagan music however, wow it's awesome.

Wardruna - NaudiR ( with lyrics and translation ) - YouTube

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I pretty much went down all the rabbit holes I could find as I was pushed into overdrive in Junior High when I discovered a fantastic series of mythologies of other countries in the school library.So familiar with quite a few, Greek was probably deepest (got hooked on that in Elementary with this book:  

https://www.amazon.com/DAulaires-Greek-Myths-Ingri-dAulaire/dp/0440406943

Norse was second.

The problem was finding stuff because it had to be from the library as I couldn’t afford to buy anything.  

I always looked at Greek Myth as a cleaner, more sanitary version of Norse myth.  I preferred Athena over Freyja, she was just smarter lol.  BTW, if you're into games, you might like this.  

Apotheon PS4 Trailer - YouTube

 

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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

That is beautiful.  I don’t do combat or timed games as too much tension gets in my muscles.

I do mostly JRPGS anymore, that or open world games.  Still need to finish the FFVII remake.  

Every play kingdom come deliverance?  It's gorgeous, time consuming but gorgeous.  

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9 minutes ago, poptart said:

I do mostly JRPGS anymore, that or open world games.  Still need to finish the FFVII remake.  

Every play kingdom come deliverance?  It's gorgeous, time consuming but gorgeous.  

I played Civilization and the Sims back in the early 2000s.  Then I took a break from more complicated games except for Myst and Rivan due to my tendency to get obsessed.  Do occasional games like Monument Valley these days.  Otherwise it is the simple stuff like wordscape and simple logic games.  Nowadays a game has to be able to be played one handed as I am laying down on my side when I play as I can’t sit long due to a broken tailbone and I have never liked being on my back due to rls.

Edited by Calm
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4 minutes ago, Calm said:

I played Civilization and the Sims back in the early 2000s.  Then I took a break from more complicated games except for Myst and Rivan due to my tendency to get obsessed.  Do occasional games like Monument Valley these days.  Otherwise it is the simple stuff like wordscape and simple logic games.

Here's a few more you might like.  

Total War: TROY / Official Trailer / A Total War Saga - YouTube

Story Trailer - Child of Light [NORTH AMERICA] - YouTube

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Second is cool, the first a bit too realistic artwork for my taste.  Have to ask my daughter if she has played any of them.

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t remember how long it took me to realize people were seeing Aslan as Jesus.  I still don’t.  There is overlap in how I sense the Creation and the creation story in the Silmarillion...ach, I have lost the ability to spell that correctly.

Well, it wasn't just people seeing Aslan as Jesus. The author intended Aslan to be seen that way. C. S. Lewis wrote:

"Since Narnia is a world of Talking Beasts, I thought He [Christ] would become a Talking Beast there, as He became a man here. I pictured Him becoming a lion there because (a) the lion is supposed to be the king of beasts; (b) Christ is called "The Lion of Judah" in the Bible; (c) I'd been having strange dreams about lions when I began writing the work."

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1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Well, it wasn't just people seeing Aslan as Jesus. The author intended Aslan to be seen that way. C. S. Lewis wrote:

"Since Narnia is a world of Talking Beasts, I thought He [Christ] would become a Talking Beast there, as He became a man here. I pictured Him becoming a lion there because (a) the lion is supposed to be the king of beasts; (b) Christ is called "The Lion of Judah" in the Bible; (c) I'd been having strange dreams about lions when I began writing the work."

Yes, I know.  
 

I am sure there are probably many books where I don’t see the characters in the way their author does.

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