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Ex-Mormons on Shrooms


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25 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I recall many years ago coming home from the Utah Valley Hospital with general anesthesia still in my system (maybe sodium pentathol), and I was composing an original symphony in my mind -- despite not being a musician -- and I could hear it very clearly inside me.  It was beautiful.  So I am not at all amazed when some  musicians take mind-altering drugs to enhance their skills.

If you mean UVRMC, I was at the same hospital 🤣

It was 1996 after surgery for a broken hand. I called my friends in the BYU dorms. Pete was the only one of them home, and he didn't have a car but ran all the way to the hospital to just sit with me. What a good friend.

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11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

If you mean UVRMC, I was at the same hospital 🤣

This was back before it got so big that they renamed it.

11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

It was 1996 after surgery for a broken hand. I called my friends in the BYU dorms. Pete was the only one of them home, and he didn't have a car but ran all the way to the hospital to just sit with me. What a good friend.

Yes, I too am grateful for those who have sat with me in the recovery room, even though they always refuse to tell me what I said under the influence of anesthesia.  :pirate:

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On 2/26/2021 at 7:57 AM, rodheadlee said:

When I was a child I acted like a child. Now that I'm an adult I left all that behind. It took a long time to grow up perhaps these people that were born in the church need to go through the same thing before they appreciate what they had before they lost it.

FYI I was 53 when I became an adult. 

Bravo! 

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On 2/26/2021 at 3:37 PM, MiserereNobis said:

.................. it is interesting how they reconcile their beginnings with psychedelics and their teachings now that one should not begin with psychedelics. .................

Traditional Hindu yogis and Buddhist masters also discourage any interest in siddhi or occult powers, suggesting that those features only waylay or delay the meditator on his way to authentic understanding or enlightenment.  Castaneda likewise claimed that his teacher Don Juan Matus made it clear that drugs were only a means to an end, not the end in itself -- a hard lesson to learn.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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Psychedelics work and can change and spiritualized life but they are not the real thing compared to a heavy dose of the Holy Spirit.

 They are like riding a bike with training wheels.

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54 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I recall many years ago coming home from the Utah Valley Hospital with general anesthesia still in my system (maybe sodium pentathol), and I was composing an original symphony in my mind -- despite not being a musician -- and I could hear it very clearly inside me.  It was beautiful.  So I am not at all amazed when some  musicians take mind-altering drugs to enhance their skills.

The Grateful Dead wouldn't be the Grateful Dead without 'em! ;) 

And yet, their music is for all types to enjoy. Liberal hippies only? Tucker Carlson and Ann Coulter are Deadheads and have been to many many shows. Drugs/alcohol only? There is a group who call themselves The Wharf Rats who have AA meetings at every Dead show. Look for the yellow balloons to find the areas where drug and alcohol use isn't welcome. Those who can hear only? You can find a group of deaf Deadheads at shows who hold balloons and beachballs to accentuate the vibrations of the music. There's almost always a sign language interpreter there, too.

Anyways, back to the topic!

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6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Psychedelics work and can change and spiritualized life but they are not the real thing compared to a heavy dose of the Holy Spirit.

 They are like riding a bike with training wheels.

That's my experience, too. I needed the training wheels to get me to Christianity, then I could take them off.

Maybe sometimes I have flashbacks though during a Tridentine Pontifical High Mass ;) 

Edited by MiserereNobis
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Numerous books have been written on the uses of psychedelics in the ancient world, my favorite was "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name". It is highly compelling. I find it highly likely that Joseph Smith would have mingled with shrooms and other natural psychedelics to produce the type of revelation and visions he did, along with ancient prophets. I don't think that is a bad thing, medicine can help in many ways - not just with pain. 

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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

That's my experience, too. I needed the training wheels to get me to Christianity, then I could take them off.

Maybe sometimes I have flashbacks though during a Tridentine Pontifical High Mass ;) 

Seriously I can imagine that as well.

I am suddenly a 9 year old altar boy.

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On 2/26/2021 at 8:49 AM, smac97 said:

For all the grousing and carping I see in online commentary about the Church and its members, there seems to be a real sense of loss felt by those who leave (as the above article seems to explore).  The loss of sense of community is real.  And per this article that loss is about much more than just ward activities, or helping someone move, or dropping off cookies of zucchini on someone's doorstep.  The spiritual experiences found by being in the community are, I think, also real.  And those experiences are lost when our brothers and sisters leave our community. 

You would think people would just go join the Sierra Club or PTA or something if they are missing the church community. Would be a lot safer than joining a Hookah club.

Your comments regarding the attempt to substitute drugs for a spiritual experience reminds me of an unpleasant situation we had in our ward a few decades ago. There was a "youth activity package" being peddled in our area, and our stake had paid to participate.  

The program was as follows: The ward youth were rounded up, quite late at night and taken to an unfamiliar area, in the pitch dark, where they would stumble around trying to prepare camp, with only the flashlights and advice from their advisors to "guide them."

After an uncomfortable night, they would get a very early wake up call, (estimated four or five hours of sleep). They would be allowed to eat one orange, then would spend the whole morning doing "trust exercise" type activities. At the end of the activities, they'd be given a loving letter from their parents, then would be directed to go to a private spot to read it. After reading the letter, they would return to the group and be given the opportunity to bear their testimonies. After the  testimony meeting, they would finally be allowed to eat, then return home.

The program was being sold by it's purveyors as a guaranteed spiritual experience. Lots of sweet music and crying teenagers providing testimony of the program's efficacy.

Now, no single activity could be pointed at as a really bad idea - except the hunger thing -- fasting without a clear purpose is just going hungry. But trust exercises, or stumbling around in the dark with only an advisor's voice guiding you can be fun, instructive and memorable.

But IMHO the combination of activities was over the top. To make my point, I'll give the activities less pleasant titles: Kidnapping, disorientation, sleep deprivation, food deprivation, emotional manipulation, peer pressure. And packaging and selling a "spiritual experience" -- priestcraft.

You can't manufacture spiritual experiences. Not with drugs, not with prepackaged activities.

"Search, ponder and pray" might be mundane, and quite frankly, it can take a fair amount of time and work, but it's the only way to get a real spiritual experience 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Theosis said:

Numerous books have been written on the uses of psychedelics in the ancient world, my favorite was "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name". It is highly compelling. I find it highly likely that Joseph Smith would have mingled with shrooms and other natural psychedelics to produce the type of revelation and visions he did, along with ancient prophets. I don't think that is a bad thing, medicine can help in many ways - not just with pain. 

Yes there is some evidence for that idea in papers I have read recently.

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Why are so many people conflating psychedelics with narcotics (and possibly stimulants)?

I am with Stargazer and have ADD. I take what is essentially amphetamines every day. For the first month I got a quick look at why meth addicts lose their teeth. Dry mouth is obnoxious. Luckily I was so happy I didn’t care. Then it leveled out and just gave me more ability to focus and I no longer am so perpetually mentally exhausted that I want to sleep 10 hours a day. I am, in essence, a functional addict though I function better as an addict than I did sober. It is also ironic that a stimulant makes me less mentally hyper. As an experiment I learned I can quit if I want but it is more like going back to a mental dungeon after breathing fresh air than giving up euphoria. After living most of my life suboptimally it is hard for me not to characterize sobriety as overrated.

I wouldn’t go to psychedelics seeking spiritual fulfillment. I would do it for the psychological insights it can give into my own makeup. I would prefer to be able to do it without the drugs though. My dreams used to sometimes work along those lines but not in the last decade. Sometimes I get close in meditation and that fuzzy boundary between being awake and asleep. 

If I want spiritual visions I would go to prayer and meditation and hope they come. If not, then they cannot be forced. In any case I am not surprised psychedelic use is tied to religious or spiritual reevaluations. I would even say it is often borne of clarity. Getting away from the accretions of sin, justifications, and mediocrities we often build our lives around can make you appear crazy to others. I don’t think it comes from God. It is more likely to be just the spirit inside of each of us which is why these experiences can go well or very bad. I know a guy, he is probably a clinical psychopath. He can be very scary but he is also a lot of fun once you get used to the idea that you are talking to someone who really wouldn’t have any emotional reaction to killing you. On psychedelics was the only time he felt any empathy for others and it messed with him to feel emotional regret for his actions for the first time. I suspect it is something like my amphetamine use. Stuff that can ruin a life can bring another life more into conformity with what it should be.

Thus the oddball line: Drugs are nature’s hugs. ;) 

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3 hours ago, Emily said:

You would think people would just go join the Sierra Club or PTA or something if they are missing the church community. Would be a lot safer than joining a Hookah club.

Your comments regarding the attempt to substitute drugs for a spiritual experience reminds me of an unpleasant situation we had in our ward a few decades ago. There was a "youth activity package" being peddled in our area, and our stake had paid to participate.  

The program was as follows: The ward youth were rounded up, quite late at night and taken to an unfamiliar area, in the pitch dark, where they would stumble around trying to prepare camp, with only the flashlights and advice from their advisors to "guide them."

After an uncomfortable night, they would get a very early wake up call, (estimated four or five hours of sleep). They would be allowed to eat one orange, then would spend the whole morning doing "trust exercise" type activities. At the end of the activities, they'd be given a loving letter from their parents, then would be directed to go to a private spot to read it. After reading the letter, they would return to the group and be given the opportunity to bear their testimonies. After the  testimony meeting, they would finally be allowed to eat, then return home.

The program was being sold by it's purveyors as a guaranteed spiritual experience. Lots of sweet music and crying teenagers providing testimony of the program's efficacy.

Now, no single activity could be pointed at as a really bad idea - except the hunger thing -- fasting without a clear purpose is just going hungry. But trust exercises, or stumbling around in the dark with only an advisor's voice guiding you can be fun, instructive and memorable.

But IMHO the combination of activities was over the top. To make my point, I'll give the activities less pleasant titles: Kidnapping, disorientation, sleep deprivation, food deprivation, emotional manipulation, peer pressure. And packaging and selling a "spiritual experience" -- priestcraft.

You can't manufacture spiritual experiences. Not with drugs, not with prepackaged activities.

"Search, ponder and pray" might be mundane, and quite frankly, it can take a fair amount of time and work, but it's the only way to get a real spiritual experience 

 

 

 

I agree.  When I was in YWs I hated the idea of trying to force a spiritual experience through emotional manipulation.   Those activities you shared honestly sound like fun to me (except the hunger.  I like to eat) and they can have merit of their own accord separate from spiritual stuff, but to pedal the emotion and tears that will follow as the spirit is just wrong to me.

This is the kind of stuff that really messes up a kid as they mature because it teaches them that whenever they have a strong emotional response (with or without tears) that's the spirit.  But that isn't always the spirit.  We need to help our kids learn how the spirit feels to them, how they receive personal revelation, and these kinds of activities get in the way of that.

 

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24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree.  When I was in YWs I hated the idea of trying to force a spiritual experience through emotional manipulation.   Those activities you shared honestly sound like fun to me (except the hunger.  I like to eat) and they can have merit of their own accord separate from spiritual stuff, but to pedal the emotion and tears that will follow as the spirit is just wrong to me.

This is the kind of stuff that really messes up a kid as they mature because it teaches them that whenever they have a strong emotional response (with or without tears) that's the spirit.  But that isn't always the spirit.  We need to help our kids learn how the spirit feels to them, how they receive personal revelation, and these kinds of activities get in the way of that.

 

I probably wouldn't have thought much about this while all in, see why I was a bad Mormon?! I just followed the crowd. Luckily youth have you in there that isn't a follower and you'll look out for them. Also members like Emily, good for you both!

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6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

This is the kind of stuff that really messes up a kid as they mature because it teaches them that whenever they have a strong emotional response (with or without tears) that's the spirit.  But that isn't always the spirit. 

Exactly! If you expect the spirit to be tears, and you aren't getting tears when you ask (for example) if the Book of Mormon is true, you might start to wonder if the whole thing is a bit of bunk. It certainly crossed my mind as a youth. It took several years of study and a few non-teary experiences of my own to work out how the spirit usually speaks to me. 

I have noticed a greater emphasis on "alternate" voices of the spirit in lessons and conference talks in the last several decades. So hopefully the meme of a one-size-fits-all spiritual experience is a thing of the past.

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5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Psychedelics work and can change and spiritualized life but they are not the real thing compared to a heavy dose of the Holy Spirit.

 They are like riding a bike with training wheels.

Does this mean you have tried both?

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6 minutes ago, california boy said:

Does this mean you have tried both?

Of course.

MORE than "tried", I think that is fairly known hereabouts 

Edited by mfbukowski
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3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Of course.

MORE than "tried", I think that is fairly known hereabouts 

Good to know.  Hope you enjoyed it.

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7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Those lists of side-effects and negative-effects are actually quite mild. Have you read the entire list of side effects of prescription medication?

After a consultation for removing wisdom teeth for my son the dr left the room.  My son turned to me and said, "film this".

Then he sat in the chair where the dr sat and pretending to be the dr explained that one of the side effects was "death!" The patient would need to go without food for so many hours before the surgery which was "worse than death". 🤣

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

Good to know.  Hope you enjoyed it.

For me it was more study about the nature of reality than fun. 

Edited by mfbukowski
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