Hell

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Hi Bob,

As evidenced by some of the posts in the thread on when Christ will return, one person's personal revelation is another's wild speculation. 

Well, since personal revelation is personal and non-transferrable, by definition it is only that one person's faith or belief.  That has nothing to do with speculation of any kind, and is not even in the realm of reason or logic.  You have to ask yourself why this would cause such great fear among Protestants, and why it would be ignored by others.  The parade example is what happened to Jesus and his associates in ancient Palestine.  Personal revelation could not be tolerated by the power structure.  During the Renaissance, it meant that Protestant John Calvin and the Roman Catholic Inquisition dealt a death blow to personal revelation -- just as they had when Joan of Arc showed up earlier.  Can't have people going around claiming to speak for God.  Gotta nip that one in the bud quick.

[Kenngo1969]

5 hours ago, Teancum said:

You are not free if you follow what some so called prophet is telling you that God told them.

So, if I follow someone else's advice, that, ipso facto and res ipsa loquitur, means that I'm not free?  If I follow my doctor's medical advice or my attorney's legal advice, that, therefore, means I'm not free?  Simply because my doctor tells me that my continuing to smoke will endanger my health or because my lawyer tells me that failing to follow his or her advice will result in some harmful legal consequence, that means I'm not free?  I'm not free to disregard the advice, or to get a second, a third, or a fourth medical or legal opinion?

[Islander]

9 hours ago, longview said:

I believe they still have the option for repentance.  Lucifer's ultimate desire was to subvert the work of God the Father (Elohim).  The third part of the hosts either were deceived into following him or were willing agitate against the Plan of Happiness (for whatever reasons).  They also understood clearly the consequences for NOT obtaining bodies for themselves and did enter into the earth with open eyes to act as unseen adversaries to temp the mortals to disobey God.

It does not have to be permanent.  After this Plan of Happiness is completed and the new generation of the gods move on to their assigned "Mansions" above, the demons may (after eons of sitting in Outer Darkness) decide to give it up and ask to taken back somewhere (to start over where permitted).

Purely speculative.

[Damien the Leper]

13 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Welcome to the board, Kermit! That's a lovely first post  

Agreed!

[Calm]

15 hours ago, Teancum said:

I am not sure I get tour correlation.

I am wondering if you think choosing to view someone as an authority (someone you value instruction from) in one’s life automatically reduces freedom or if that is only limited to religious authority for some reason. 
 

Ken’s posts cover my thought well. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Calm

[longview]

13 hours ago, Islander said:

Purely speculative.

OK.  But I have NO idea what perspective you are coming from?  Do you disagree with every word in my post?  What part do you subscribe to, if any?  After all, this is a discussion board.  

[Robert F. Smith]

On 2/25/2021 at 10:04 AM, Tacenda said:

What is the Atonement for then? Most will go to hell and be tortured maybe? I'd rather be an Atheist and not wake up if that were true. That's why I don't believe it, thank goodness. This is where religion is dangerous and harmful by putting these ideas in people's heads. 

The blessings of the Atonement of Jesus are free.  Repentance is free.  No one has to accept that sacrificial act by Jesus on their behalf.  Every one is free to reject the love of God and put themselves into Outer Darkness, but it is their choice, and God cannot control that choice.  No one is forced to go to Hell.  Lucifer and his minions chose that baneful future for themselves.  And people are free to join them.  I think most will not choose that fate, however.

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The blessings of the Atonement of Jesus are free.  Repentance is free.  No one has to accept that sacrificial act by Jesus on their behalf.  Every one is free to reject the love of God and put themselves into Outer Darkness, but it is their choice, and God cannot control that choice.  No one is forced to go to Hell.  Lucifer and his minions chose that baneful future for themselves.  And people are free to join them.  I think most will not choose that fate, however.

It's purely speculation of course, but I believe the writers of the Bible put things in it about hell so people would not commit harm to their fellow beings. A scare tactic, so in one respect maybe fear of going to hell is a good thing. 

[let’s roll]

On 2/25/2021 at 3:11 PM, Teancum said:

Freedom means you don't have to submit your will to someone who says God it telling me what you should do. And that is the essence of most religions and very much so for the LDS Church.

The essence of the Church is that we are invited to join our Father in bringing to pass the eternal life of His children, including ourselves.  The essence of eternal life is to know God and the Christ. As we come to know them we emulate them as we come to understand their ways lead to perfection, i.e. being complete, whole, wanting for nothing.

Their will becomes ours.  Submitting your will connotes doing something you don’t want to do of your own will.  Joining God involves doing His will because it has become our will as well...we don’t do anything we don’t wholeheartedly want to do.

[Islander]

9 hours ago, longview said:

OK.  But I have NO idea what perspective you are coming from?  Do you disagree with every word in my post?  What part do you subscribe to, if any?  After all, this is a discussion board.  

There is no plan of redemption for the devil and the third of the host of heaven that willfully and intentionally waged war against God. Lucifer "is a liar and a murdered from the beginning and there is no truth in him" John 8:44. Those being dwelled in the presence of God for an ion and saw His face. They knew Him, yet, they desired to usurp His authority then and since before the world was have continued, as demons, to attempt to frustrate the plan of salvation for God's children. 

There are over 50 references to hell in the BoM, some 20 in the NT. I submit that eternal death is a real predicament and hell is a real place. The details are rather blurred but rest assured, there are tangible attributes to those elements that are clearly described in scripture.  

So, what you may "think" is rather irrelevant when it comes what God Himself has spoken in regards to the subject.

[poptart]

On 2/25/2021 at 6:42 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, since personal revelation is personal and non-transferrable, by definition it is only that one person's faith or belief.  That has nothing to do with speculation of any kind, and is not even in the realm of reason or logic.  You have to ask yourself why this would cause such great fear among Protestants, and why it would be ignored by others.  The parade example is what happened to Jesus and his associates in ancient Palestine.  Personal revelation could not be tolerated by the power structure.  During the Renaissance, it meant that Protestant John Calvin and the Roman Catholic Inquisition dealt a death blow to personal revelation -- just as they had when Joan of Arc showed up earlier.  Can't have people going around claiming to speak for God.  Gotta nip that one in the bud quick.

What are your thoughts on Calvinism and predestination?  I was never a fan of it.  

Personally, from my readings of the bible hell is quite fair considering how wicked people were.  How many times did God bail people out?  How many times did they rebel?  How many times did God's chosen chose to disobey, rape, murder and genocide?  
It's not that hard, live a good moral life.  When God tells you to do something do it.  Even after Christ's death and descent into hell and creation of His church with all the saints and cool trappings people still don't get it.  Hell is harsh but a lot of people deserve it, I think.  

[Robert F. Smith]

28 minutes ago, poptart said:

What are your thoughts on Calvinism and predestination?  I was never a fan of it.  

It certainly fulfills Lucifer's wish not to allow any free choice, but, on the other hand, it does give God a bad reputation.

28 minutes ago, poptart said:

Personally, from my readings of the bible hell is quite fair considering how wicked people were.  How many times did God bail people out?  How many times did they rebel?  How many times did God's chosen chose to disobey, rape, murder and genocide?  
It's not that hard, live a good moral life.  When God tells you to do something do it.  Even after Christ's death and descent into hell and creation of His church with all the saints and cool trappings people still don't get it.  Hell is harsh but a lot of people deserve it, I think.  

A refreshing take on the savage nature of humankind.

[Islander]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It certainly fulfills Lucifer's wish not to allow any free choice, but, on the other hand, it does give God a bad reputation.

Why? Can sinful. fallen and evil by nature creatures like us cast judgement on a a holy, omniscient, sovereign and righteous God, based on what our corrupt minds perceive about His actions?

Calvin may have laid out in detail what the bible teach, but from the very pages of scripture it is clear that predestination is part of God's plan. Since when human "wisdom" and intellect surpasses the devine, holy counsel and will of God?

[3DOP]

On 2/25/2021 at 10:02 AM, Kermit said:

I looked into my copy of Iota Unum to find the reference, 3DOP, and was able to find one translations on the matter.

Firstly it cites De Malo, 5, 3, "Do Those Who Die with Only Original Sin Suffer the Torment of Internal Anguish?". An excerpt that I think is appropriate is:

From Regan's 2003 Oxford translation

Secondly it cites the Commentary on the Sentences, book two, distinction 33, q.2, a.2. I don't believe there is currently an English translation (or at least I'm yet to find one), and my Latin is no where near sophisticated enough to understand it, so I'll just link the appropriate text:

Sentences Commentary  - Page 853 should be the relevant part, I believe. 

I don't think Rivers was talking about those who die in original sin only. And that is not the way I understood Amerio. I like the quote and its argument for a different reason. But I took Amerio to be saying that those who commit actual sins would also be eligible for "varying degrees of real, but imperfect happiness". It seems disingenuous to cite Aquinas on Hell in general if Aquinas was only writing about the Limbo of the Children in particular. As a Catholic I am disappointed with Amerio apparently using Limbo to say that all the inhabitants of Hell can have imperfect happiness. Maybe I have missed something. But De malo seemed unhelpful in support of Amerio's more sweeping assertion. Maybe the citation from the Sentences could shed more light.

But page 853? There are only 582 pages. "853" is a typo. I hope it is better than De malo.

Most LDS are very strong against infant baptism and original sin because LDS think it implies that the unbaptized dead baby suffers positive mental and physical anguish for acts beyond its control. I agree that this would be unthinkable. I would be against infant baptism too if I thought that it implied that dead unbaptized babies were crying for their mothers in detestable stink and unconsuming flames for eternity. I am glad that seems intolerable to our LDS friends. Same here. It is important for Catholics to demonstrate that the "punishment" of original sin is to be "deprived" of supernatural goods that neither the world, nor most Christians dream of, or desire. At the same time, dead unbaptized babies enjoy natural and imperfect happiness with immortal life, not even being conscious or desirous of what they do not have (that is why their happiness is "imperfect"). Adam's original sin was also actual. For Adam's children, it is original only and deserves no positive suffering, only deprivation of that which is naturally unbelievable and nobody wants without the Catholic faith anyway. 

But back to the way I used Amerio. I fear now that the assertion of Amerio, and subsequently myself, overreached what Aquinas actually said in De malo.  

Edited February 27, 2021 by 3DOP

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Islander said:

Why? Can sinful. fallen and evil by nature creatures like us cast judgement on a a holy, omniscient, sovereign and righteous God, based on what our corrupt minds perceive about His actions?

Calvin may have laid out in detail what the bible teach, but from the very pages of scripture it is clear that predestination is part of God's plan. Since when human "wisdom" and intellect surpasses the devine, holy counsel and will of God?

That's just the point at which some people chafe -- that logically posits a God who disallows free will, and who simultaneously creates both evil and good.  A beastly god is going to be beloved by very few, and we see the fruits of such illogic in rampant secularism.  It is Hellenistic Judeo-Christian tradition which has brought us to this pretty pass, not the Bible.  The choice is, and should be, stark.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, poptart said:

Personally, from my readings of the bible hell is quite fair considering how wicked people were.  How many times did God bail people out?  How many times did they rebel?  How many times did God's chosen chose to disobey, rape, murder and genocide?  
It's not that hard, live a good moral life.  When God tells you to do something do it.  Even after Christ's death and descent into hell and creation of His church with all the saints and cool trappings people still don't get it.  Hell is harsh but a lot of people deserve it, I think.  

I can see it being justice for a time equal to the pain they caused others, but since I assume that those they have harmed are, if they desire, able to be healed through the Atonement, and that healing can take place after death as well as mortality so no one is locked into suffering forever because of what someone else did to then, an eternity of punishment moves into injustice for me.  
 

I think it is essential, in fact, that people understand the depth of suffering they have caused in others, whether they then are hopefully motivated to change or just come to learn what monsters they have chosen to become.  This may need to come through personal suffering if unwilling to learn.  The image of hell I like the best is having to relive the lives of the victims (think of a virtual experience where one feels the internal as well the external sensations) so as to know exactly what they have done. 
 

I am hopeful there may be other ways for people to understand if they didn’t intend to cause pain and actually cared about not causing pain, but still did though lack of understanding and inability for empathy.  I see it as important for those who have suffered to know their abusers comprehend what they have done, but perhaps knowing God does will be enough. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by Calm

[3DOP]

6 hours ago, poptart said:

What are your thoughts on Calvinism and predestination?  I was never a fan of it.  

Personally, from my readings of the bible hell is quite fair considering how wicked people were.  How many times did God bail people out?  How many times did they rebel?  How many times did God's chosen chose to disobey, rape, murder and genocide?  
It's not that hard, live a good moral life.  When God tells you to do something do it.  Even after Christ's death and descent into hell and creation of His church with all the saints and cool trappings people still don't get it.  Hell is harsh but a lot of people deserve it, I think.  

Some good points pop. God love you. Calvin seems misdirected.

I don't want what I deserve. Nor do you. A lot of people deserve hell. Sure. Include me.

But...I don't go so far as "when God tells you to do something do it". It has to make sense...to us. God honors our liberty. He honors our freedom.  He doesn't wish us to obey Him at the price of our intellects. God  is rational, and He made us so. Humility, yes. But I am not for elevating God's will to a place that is above reason. A good and rational God would not do that to the creation, made in his image.

I sometimes say things in the wee hours, which I regret later. I am looking it over again. 

Okay...it might be subject to criticism tomorrow. But I am sending.

Believe in my true good will and hopes for you all, and for poor undeserving me at the end of the line. God love you all. 

Rory

Edited February 27, 2021 by 3DOP

[poptart]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I can see it being justice for a time equal to the pain they caused others, but since I assume that those they have harmed are, if they desire, able to be healed through the Atonement, and that healing can take place after death as well as mortality so no one is locked into suffering forever because of what someone else did to then, an eternity of punishment moves into injustice for me.  
 

I think it is essential, in fact, that people understand the depth of suffering they have caused in others, whether they then are hopefully motivated to change or just come to learn what monsters they have chosen to become.  This may need to come through personal suffering if unwilling to learn.  The image of hell I like the best is having to relive the lives of the victims (think of a virtual experience where one feels the internal as well the external sensations) so as to know exactly what they have done. 
 

I am hopeful there may be other ways for people to understand if they didn’t intend to cause pain and actually cared about not causing pain, but still did though lack of understanding and inability for empathy.  I see it as important for those who have suffered to know their abusers comprehend what they have done, but perhaps knowing God does will be enough. 

This is why I like the idea of purgatory.  Sure, they may have repented but they still need to understand just what they did and atone accordingly.  Some do repent, here's a famous story of it.  

St. Thérèse of Lisieux and the Murderer| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)

Person who did the praying.

Thérèse of Lisieux - Wikipedia

All for redemption but in the end choices have consequences.  I'm far, far from perfect and yeah, I do tend to have a cold blooded attitude towards the world in general and do take joy in sitting back and watching it all unfold as if it was a spectator sport.  Thing is I admit it, I can be rotten at times and take responsibility for it.  I don't blame my childhood for it, I don't blame bad family for it nor the bad people I knew.  Sure, they had an influence but still, in the end I made the choices I did; I take responsibility for my own choices.  My belief is deep down most people know what they're doing.  My take on Christian Diety is while God is just and fair, he also knows this, humankind was made in his image.   It's a two way street, you want redemption?  Work with God, confess your sins and do your best to knock it off.  If you can't life a good pious life, live a quiet one.  This is one reason why monastic and religious orders are a thing, those who have issues functioning in normal society have that as an option.  Even in Asian countries these are a things.  This is why so many shoguns back in the day joined monestaries and became monks, to atone for all the wars they helped start or participated in.

Also, when I referred to bad people?  Far as I can tell that's no one here.  You guys actually feel bad for what you do and admit to it, so many in the bible and IRL today don't.  Those people?  Yeah I say let God's wrath befall them for their wickedness.  That's not me passing judgement, that's them choosing to reject God, his church and invoke his wrath.  Fear of God is a thing, something you really don't see from a lot of Christians here stateside anymore.  I think.

5 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Some good points pop. God love you. Calvin seems misdirected.

I don't want what I deserve. Nor do you. A lot of people deserve hell. Sure. Include me.

But...I don't go so far as "when God tells you to do something do it". It has to make sense...to us. God honors our liberty. He honors our freedom.  He doesn't wish us to obey Him at the price of our intellects. God  is rational, and He made us so. Humility, yes. But I am not for elevating God's will to a place that is above reason. A good and rational God would not do that to the creation, made in his image.

I sometimes say things in the wee hours, which I regret later. I am looking it over again. 

Okay...it might be subject to criticism tomorrow. But I am sending.

Believe in my true good will and hopes for you all, and for poor undeserving me at the end of the line. God love you all. 

Rory

To me, Calvinism is a bit of an insult to the Church an what Christ did.  Does God in the bible know who will be saved in the end?  Probably, so what?  That was the point of Christs work, to give all a shot at redemption.  

Same applies to you, you're not the people I was referring to, you feel bad for your errors, many don't.  I agree, God is rational and honors liberty, thing is that's a two way street.  So many don't seem to grasp it, they assume once saved always saved, that they can do as they wish.  Irony is while Martin Luther kinda got the ball rolling on predestination, with him there was still that fairness.  If you truly have repented you must do good works, not to earn salvation but to prove to the world you are saved by Grace and wish to help build/improve the kingdom of heaven on earth.  That's kinda lost on a lot of protestants here nowadays, sad but it is what it is.  I like the Catholic doctorine on it, baptism washies it all away, if you chose to break the laws and sin, that's not on the sinful nature protestants and I think Latter Day Saints think is there (Am I wrong here on that?  If so someone say something please), it's on you.  You chose to sin, you chose not to repent, you chose not to confess therefore you want nothing to do with God and deserve what happens.  

I knew a priest who had a great response when asked him about sin and repentance and feelings.  From what i've seen from a lot of Christians here stateside, being a Christian here is less about obedience to His church, his rules, his laws and those he appointed over you, it's more so about your "relationship", your feelings, your entitlements etc.  Anyway, his response was while God does care for his children, he really doesn't care about your feelings on the sins you chose to commit.  He made us all in his image, you know what you did and if it was wrong or not.  Even if you are mentally ill unless you are totally depraved you still know.  This is why clergy has some discretion on this and will act accordingly when administering to spiritual needs, hopefully (I've seen bad examples of that sadly...).  That being said, if you're rational, you knew what you did, God and yourself know it; repent and knock it off.  It's not that hard, that's why the church is there.  

[longview]

13 hours ago, Islander said:

There is no plan of redemption for the devil and the third of the host of heaven that willfully and intentionally waged war against God. Lucifer "is a liar and a murdered from the beginning and there is no truth in him" John 8:44. Those being dwelled in the presence of God for an ion and saw His face. They knew Him, yet, they desired to usurp His authority then and since before the world was have continued, as demons, to attempt to frustrate the plan of salvation for God's children. 

There are over 50 references to hell in the BoM, some 20 in the NT. I submit that eternal death is a real predicament and hell is a real place. The details are rather blurred but rest assured, there are tangible attributes to those elements that are clearly described in scripture.  

So, what you may "think" is rather irrelevant when it comes what God Himself has spoken in regards to the subject.

Thank you for your response.  I am also strongly inclined to believing that "Outer Darkness" (condemnation for Perdition) is permanent and that after the Final Judgment there is NO shifting or progression from one kingdom to another.  But as others in this thread (including @bluebell) have pointed out that some punishments are NOT permanent.  Such as the wicked waiting in Spirit Prison who are able to receive missionaries and afforded opportunities for repentance.  Some receive punishments for their own sins because they did not take seriously the Atonement while in Mortality but that has limited duration.  The following are scriptures that provide contrasts in varying levels of punishments:

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

D&C 19:4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

D&C 76:44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

Moses 1:3 And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?

Moses 7:35 Behold, I am God; Man of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my name, also.

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, longview said:

I am also strongly inclined to believing that "Outer Darkness" (condemnation for Perdition) is permanent

I believe that.  I believe it's a return to native elements - a loss of identity.

Quote

and that after the Final Judgment there is NO shifting or progression from one kingdom to another.  

This I don't believe at all.

[longview]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I believe that.  I believe it's a return to native elements - a loss of identity.

I do not see how there can be a return to native elements.  If Joseph Smith taught that exalted man/mortal man/spirit child/intelligence (at whatever stage) is co-eternal with God, then we have ALWAYS existed.  He said that we never had a beginning AND we never will have an end.  Even Perdition cannot stop existing.  Therefore Cain/Lucifer/Judas Iscariot/etc will always retain their identities.

Here are a couple of scriptures and extracts from the King Follett sermon:

Abraham 3:
19. And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.
21. I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.
22. Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

D&C 93:
29. Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1971/05/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng
"The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal [co-eternal] with God himself."
"I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal [co-eternal] with our Father in heaven."
"So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself."
"The best men bring forth the best works. The man who tells you words of life is the man who can save you. I warn you against all evil characters who sin against the Holy Ghost; for there is no redemption for them in this world nor in the world to come."
"There have been remarks made concerning all men being redeemed from hell; but I say that those who sin against the Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven in this world or in the world to come; they shall die the second death. Those who commit the unpardonable sin are doomed to Gnolom—to dwell in hell, worlds without end. As they concocted scenes of bloodshed in this world, so they shall rise to that resurrection which is as the lake of fire and brimstone."

Edited February 28, 2021 by longview

[Stargazer]

On 2/26/2021 at 6:21 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

The blessings of the Atonement of Jesus are free.  Repentance is free.  No one has to accept that sacrificial act by Jesus on their behalf.  Every one is free to reject the love of God and put themselves into Outer Darkness, but it is their choice, and God cannot control that choice.  No one is forced to go to Hell.  Lucifer and his minions chose that baneful future for themselves.  And people are free to join them.  I think most will not choose that fate, however.

No, I don't think anyone is free to put themselves in Outer Darkness, because I am pretty sure that is where Sons of Perdition go, and there's no choice in it. 

If one rejects Christ's atonement, then one will suffer what Christ suffered because of one's sins, and will then inherit the Telestial Kingdom. Not Outer Darkness.

[Stargazer]

On 2/26/2021 at 6:23 PM, Tacenda said:

It's purely speculation of course, but I believe the writers of the Bible put things in it about hell so people would not commit harm to their fellow beings. A scare tactic, so in one respect maybe fear of going to hell is a good thing. 

I agree. Though at times it has seemed to me to be a shallow tactic -- which is better, to obey for the sake of doing right, or to obey out of fear?

But in latter-day scripture Christ says that if you don't repent you will have to suffer what He suffered, and as he said it would be very hard to bear -- as it was even for him as God. So one would be well-advised to repent, because it won't be pleasant otherwise.

On the other hand, we tell our children to keep their hands out of the fire because it will hurt to be burned. If they obey, are they doing it because they love us and want to obey, or do they obey out of fear, and does it matter which?  Telling us that we will not like the results of disobedience sounds like a parent warning of the fire, though.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

22 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Quote

and that after the Final Judgment there is NO shifting or progression from one kingdom to another.  

This I don't believe at all.

I have a very logical reason for believing that there is NO shifting or progression. With a possible exception, as follows:

First, to be assigned to the Telestial Kingdom is a result of having rejected the Atonement. And then consequently have suffered for one's own sins. Which member of the Godhead ministers to the Telestial? The Holy Spirit. Christ does not come there. How can someone who rejected Christ be welcomed into the Terrestrial Kingdom, whose denizens are ministered to by Christ? Thus I do not believe that one in the Telestial Kingdom may progress to the Terrestrial.

Maybe it's possible to progress to the Celestial from the Terrestrial, since those in the Terrestrial have accepted Christ's Atonement. However, even if that is possible, I am not sanguine as to progression from there to the highest level of the Celestial (and Exaltation) because that requires acceptance of and entrance into eternal marriage. And since all marriage must be settled before the resurrection, and eternal marriage pertains only to the highest glory of the Celestial Kingdom, singles cannot go any higher than the second level of the CK.  And I am unsure as to whether a man and a woman sealed in the temple, whose faithfulness only led to their assignment to the Terrestrial Kingdom, would remain married in the Terrestrial. It doesn't actually make any sense, since marriage has always pointed towards procreation. Terrestrial beings are not exalted, so they cannot be exalted to become parents to spirit children. So marriage is of no value to them.

The idea that they loved each other, and still love each other, is immaterial, since nothing precludes them from associating with one another in the Terrestrial Kingdom. 

But ultimately, all of this is speculative. I have no skin the game, other than curiosity.  If progression is indeed possible, I'm perfectly happy with that.

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

No, I don't think anyone is free to put themselves in Outer Darkness, because I am pretty sure that is where Sons of Perdition go, and there's no choice in it. 

If one rejects Christ's atonement, then one will suffer what Christ suffered because of one's sins, and will then inherit the Telestial Kingdom. Not Outer Darkness.

You mention Perdition.  What happens to those who apostatize despite full light and knowledge?