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All Things New by Givens


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I'm reading through Fiona and Terryl Given's new book All Things New. While I don't always line up with their theology I do appreciate their insights. This book is interesting in a couple of ways. If one has listened to them or seen them in person or on video, angry would not be an adjective that would come to one's mind to describe them. They are very calm, mild mannered, and patient. Yet this book invoked that very adjective to me. While not overt or over the top in anyway, they don't mince words in denouncing the theological traditions that arose from the apostasy. I have long maintained that our theology and culture carries a lot of baggage from Protestantism that we still struggle to shed, the Givens give light to that in a particularly illuminating (if sometimes redundant and repetitive) way. While most of their ire is directed towards the traditions of mainstream Christianity, they also express frustration at how much the Latter-day Saints need to turn away from the past's traditions. To that latter frustration they also add our sometimes too literal adherence to the Bible and bad interpretations we latter-day saints have.

If there is a criticism it may be that they might be accused of cherry-picking scripture to support their interpretations. But I didn't find myself minding that at all. It's not an exhaustive or scholarly exegesis by any means and doesn't pretend to be. But they do bring in numerous and good scriptural, LDS, and non-LDS quotes. They seem to have done their research that would, of course, have included much that didn't make it into the book. For me the best part of the book is that one can read it and come away thinking "nice book, good theology, nothing really new" and not thinking one changed their mind much at all. And yet, unwittingly, one will have changed their mind and made some sometimes non-trivial adjustments in how they thing about the Gospel because it just makes sense and it's more correct. The Bible and the Book of Mormon unfettered from the taint of historical traditions becomes refreshingly new, hence the book's title.

Anybody else read/reading the book? What think you?

Edited by Nofear
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20 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I'd love to read it, but I have several books I'm supposed to be reading and ain't.

This books sounds very intriguing, though.

Uhhh ... you ain't?   Pray, do tell ... why ain'tcha? ;):D:rofl::D

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I have been a huge fan of Terryl and Fiona since their first book The God Who Weeps.  All Things New builds upon the the theological foundation laid out in the that book. 

I appreciate the Givens’ work because their theological ideas just make a lot of sense to me.  They have been immensely helpful to me in my own little faith journey.  

They have been accused by some as putting lipstick on a pig as they put a positive spin on Mormonism.  I, however, prefer  to use the analogy of Johnny Lingo giving Mahana a makeover.  Restoration theology has always been beautiful.  Terryl and Fiona just do a great job at pointing out that beauty.

I feel the most important point they drive home in All Things New is the understanding that God is a loving parent rather than vindictive ruler.  When one keeps that premise at the forefront , it sheds new light on everything.

 

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37 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Uhhh ... you ain't?   Pray, do tell ... why ain'tcha? ;):D:rofl::D

Bucuz I'm writing posts here. Maykin videoz. Watchin Youtube. Important things like that.

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I'm looking to you, Nofear, for insights and analysis on this one. Givens is killing me. He writes faster than I can read (Evelyn Wood, where are you?). I have read his little The Book of Mormon -- a Very Short Introduction (one of a number of "short introduction" booklets published by Oxford University Press). I've also read By the Hand of Mormon, The God Who Weeps, The Christ Who Heals, The Crucible of Doubt, Joseph Smith's American Bible -- Radicalizing the Familiar, his biography of Parley P. Pratt, his theological commentary on 2nd Nephi (published by the Maxwell Institute) and Viper on the Hearth.  Sitting unread on my shelf is Wrestling the Angel, Feeding the Flock,  and When Souls Had Wings.

The man can write (and write so well!), but I do wish he'd take a break!

He and Fiona are doing some wonderful work. My understanding of their view of the apostasy is that the Church was never really totally lost, but (per Fiona, I think) was instead brought forth out of the wilderness into a fullness of restoration (D&C 33:5, D&C 109:73, etc.). Are you finding something like that in this newest book or am I mistaken?

They also seem to focus very heavily on Christ's Atonement being for the healing of our brokenness that we suffer as part of our mortal experience through no real fault of our own. I like that, but wonder sometimes if they could also spend a little more of their considerable talent in also reminding us that much of what we suffer here is due to our own sinful choices and that the concept of repentance could be given an equal part of their attention.

But in actuality, I don't know where the crap I'm getting off, because they've very apparently forgotten more about these things than I'll ever know! They are both wonderful spokespeople for our faith claims. 

Edited by Derl Sanderson
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12 hours ago, Derl Sanderson said:

much of what we suffer here is due to our own sinful choices

This is true. I have heard it said that we are punished more by our sins, that for our sins. At least, in this life.

Though if we don't repent we'll be facing far worse in the end.

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18 hours ago, Derl Sanderson said:

snip

I haven't read as much as you. Still, given how much they critique the theology of the medival ages and the reformation I do not see them as asserting the apostasy didn't happen. Rather, they do (correctly) asser that the restoration of the Church is only *part* of the latter-day restoration of all things. 

They also assert that the atonement is more about healing of woundedness than the idea of penal substituion (which lacks on so many levels). I tend to vary from their view of premortal innocence to believing everybody, at some level, has imperfection/corruption in their fundamental core bein and healingo/changing that needs the atonement. But, that's a bit more acacemic level of thinking and their more pragmatic view is both not wholly incompatible and is more useful to most people.

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On 2/12/2021 at 5:56 PM, Derl Sanderson said:

 

He and Fiona are doing some wonderful work. My understanding of their view of the apostasy is that the Church was never really totally lost, but (per Fiona, I think) was instead brought forth out of the wilderness into a fullness of restoration (D&C 33:5, D&C 109:73, etc.). Are you finding something like that in this newest book or am I mistaken?

 

When we talk about apostasy in the church, we focus a lot on temples, priesthood keys, ordinances, prophets and apostles, etc. Terryl and Fiona focus a lot on our understanding of God as something that was lost.  They throw Saint Augustine under the bus for this.  They also put a lot of blame on the reformers.  God went from a loving parent to the angry God of Jonathan Edwards.  

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