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And there was war in heaven...


gav

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6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect the war was over something less obvious than a direct assault on agency. Probably something like convincing everyone the tree of knowledge of good and evil isn’t needed or something.

How easily people in many ages have sacrificed freedom for safety or just being taken care of and not having to care for themselves

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7 hours ago, Duncan said:

Like I said 8 women. Are you sure they are serious? are you willing to take over Christ's role as judge of them to determine that? Good luck!

"Do you deny that premarital sex, out of wedlock pregnancies, and abortion for convenience (or even as a form of birth control) are no longer considered to be moral failures by an increasingly large proportion of the world’s population?" yes, I deny that and I wouldn't lump the third option of abortion for convenience with the first two. You don't know the how and the why of the first two, you just seem to think they are sinful-what if you found out a 15 yr girl had premarital sex and then later found out she was sex trafficked? We don't know the details, so why judge them?

"And is sin no longer sin just because someone feels bad afterward but never actually gets around to repenting?" how many abortions do you think women have? I know a currently serving GA's wife who had 3 of them but it's a whole story.

"You appear to suffer under the delusion that Satan and his host are unable to get such a firm grip on the minds and hearts of an entire society until the people get to the point where they are “past feeling” because their consciences are “seared with a hot iron.” The Lord repeatedly warns that when a society becomes so hardened in sin that they no longer feel any guilt, shame or remorse when they violate laws of God, the only thing such a society is fit for is divinely decreed utter destruction. This process that leads to a population wide callous disregard for God’s laws and the extinguishing of inborn light of Christ is called “ripening in iniquity.”"

I will grant you that there is a lot of delusion out there, mostly coming from this point. Is your delusion past the point where you are judging who is "past feeling" and has a "conscience seared with a hot iron" do you really think you are God? are you that kind of delusional? I am familiar with "ripening in iniquity" I am unfamiliar with the part that you have anything to do with abortion, unless you go on ledges and scream at people

"The United States of America is rapidly heading in that direction and the scriptures solemnly warn us that at the time of the Second Coming the earth will be so ripened in iniquity and hatred for God that the vast majority of the earth’s inhabitants are going to be destroyed in massive cataclysmic destructions of every kind, just like what the Nephites experienced at the death of Christ except for the fact that it will be far worse and worldwide in scope."

if you are prepared then you shall not fear? why are you afraid? do you blame people who have abortions causing the second coming? what do you think you'll be missing out on? hot date? we can't change the date of the second coming anyways, so start putting oil in your lamp

oh, speaking of delusion, President Ezra Taft Benson's last conference talk was this

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1989/10/to-the-elderly-in-the-church?lang=eng

he was speaking to the Elderly of the Church, so where you got this all this mumbo jumbo I have no idea

"President Ezra Taft Benson warned in his last General Conference address, when the time of the Second Coming there will be only two remaining choices for each accountable member of the human race to make, choose to become a faithful member of the Church of God or choose go over to the side of the devil in total rebellion. And what will be that last straw that will bring our avenging Lord down from heaven to rescue his saints? That final point will be reached when the members of the church of the devil decide they hate God so much that they mightily arm themselves in order to wipe every last believer in God and Christ off the face of the earth. And after the members of the church of the devil are destroyed in the flesh by the Lord they will be thrust into hell to suffer the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God until, hopefully, they finally learn how to feel regret, shame and remorse of conscience for their sins. This can only happen when the divinely implanted human conscience, activated by the light of Christ is obliterated."

How about easing up on teddyaware a little, I think you keep missing his point.

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20 minutes ago, gav said:

How easily people in many ages have sacrificed freedom for safety or just being taken care of and not having to care for themselves

While others have denied others freedom to the point that the oppressed feel they have no other choice but to give up what little freedom they have for safety.

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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

While others have denied others freedom to the point that the oppressed feel they have no other choice but to give up what little freedom they have for safety.

also true!

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12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I suspect the war was over something less obvious than a direct assault on agency. Probably something like convincing everyone the tree of knowledge of good and evil isn’t needed or something.

Since the winners write the history, there is a very good chance that Lucifer's persuasion is not given a "fair shake" as it were in our documents. Not that I need it to be. But obviously he had some persuasive arguments in his disposal if, despite the Father's Plan working on millions of world prior (as Calm pointed out), Lucifer was able to persuade a third part* that maybe his plan would be better.


* just as a point of clarity, a third part isn't necessarily the same thing as 1/3

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1 hour ago, Duncan said:

what do you think his point is?

This below... it was a possible and hypothetical example among many... you seem to getting way too far into the weeds when it was only a broad outline of a hypothetical scenario.

Quote

For example, in Satan’s kingdom there would be no negative consequences for having sex and getting pregnant out of wedlock because all a woman would have to do is have her unborn baby aborted and be able do so without any negative judgements that might otherwise cause her to feel shame, guilt or remorse of conscience.

 

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11 minutes ago, gav said:

This below... it was a possible and hypothetical example among many... you seem to getting way too far into the weeds when it was only a broad outline of a hypothetical scenario.

 

yes, "Satan's Kingdom" and this no negative consequences and then he, not me, brought up all this sex stuff and I challenged him on all of it because I don't believe him.

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4 hours ago, Nofear said:

Since the winners write the history, there is a very good chance that Lucifer's persuasion is not given a "fair shake" as it were in our documents. Not that I need it to be. But obviously he had some persuasive arguments in his disposal if, despite the Father's Plan working on millions of world prior (as Calm pointed out), Lucifer was able to persuade a third part* that maybe his plan would be better.


* just as a point of clarity, a third part isn't necessarily the same thing as 1/3

No one’s point of view is given a good shake. We have attempted to reconstruct a narrative from a few verses along with some enlightenment from modern prophets and a liberal dose of speculation.

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On 1/23/2021 at 10:31 AM, gav said:

From modern revelation we understand this war was about agency but I would be keen to hear what other insights you all might have found researching and pondering this topic.

It was about agency but more to the point it was about good vs evil, because the best way to destroy agency is to make everything either good or evil rather than having 2 different opposing choices to choose from.

For example, if everything we did was considered good, whatever we did, then it would not be possible to do anything bad or evil... because everything we did would be considered a good thing to do.

 

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10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

It was about agency but more to the point it was about good vs evil, because the best way to destroy agency is to make everything either good or evil rather than having 2 different opposing choices to choose from.

 

I love it! no more opposition in all things...

Edited by gav
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On 1/23/2021 at 3:41 PM, teddyaware said:

Many years ago I imagined Satan’s plan involved the requirement that we keep the commandments of God, but that in some manner we’d be compelled to obey the law whether we wanted to or not. I imagined this was the case because we’re taught Satan’s plan would destroy the agency of man and it’s hard to imagine a more effective way to destroy agency that by forcing others to do do things, or not do things, against their will.

But I’ve long since come to realize there’s another way to destroy agency without having to use compulsory force, and that would be by removing any and all negative consequences for committing sin by radically redefining the parameters of sin. For example, in Satan’s kingdom there would be no negative consequences for having sex and getting pregnant out of wedlock because all a woman would have to do is have her unborn baby aborted and be able do so without any negative judgements that might otherwise cause her to feel shame, guilt or remorse of conscience. In fact, in Satan’s world sexual morality would be so radically redefined that having an abortion would be considered good and even laudable.

Now imagine a world where nothing is considered a sin and therefore there are no consequences for sin and you have a system where no atoning sacrifice for sin would be required. But in such a world there actually might be something that would be construed as a form of sin, and that would be to assert that sin exists in the first place.

We seem to have a similar view on this in what you call radically redefining the parameters of sin, although I would say the easier option would be to introduce a radical redefinition of what evil is.

Think of how some in this world use the word good to describe whatever they like, even if some other people don't like it.  And then how those people who like it try to get other people to at least tolerate what they don't like instead of calling it evil.

 

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12 minutes ago, DispensatorMysteriorum said:
I think agency is poorly understood.  We obviously fought a war in heaven to maintain agency, but I think Satan continues to subvert the doctrine of agency here one earth.  One way he continues to seek to "destroy the agency of man" is by teaching that "all mankind should be saved at the last day...for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life." (Alma 1:4; Compare to Moses 4:1). He also whispers that God "will justify in committing a little sin.... and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God" (2 Nephi 28:8). These ideas are seductive, but they are "false and vain and foolish" (2 Nephi 28:9).

Although we have agency, God has restricted some of our choices.  For example, we cannot choose to forgo mortal death or choose to suspend the law of gravity.  Additionally, we cannot separate choice from consequence. Such consequences are not a limitation on agency, but are essential to it. President Spencer W. Kimball taught this in his characteristically frank manner:
 

For agency to have meaning, our power of choice must be laden with consequence. If our actions always resulted in the same outcome, then our choices would be meaningless; if "all mankind should be saved at the last day" in spite of our choices, then we could not choose whether to be saved or damned. This would "destroy the agency of man" (Moses 4:3).

In other words, I don't think eliminating choice is the only threat to agency. In defending agency, we must not only honor the right of individuals to make choices, but we must uphold the consequences of choice. Choice and consequence are inextricably tethered to agency; agency cannot exist without both in harmony. Choice detached from consequence is not an ultimate or worthy goal. President Dallin H. Oaks has taught:
 

The tired argument of many Latter-day Saints that someone is violating their agency by having expectations or even demands placed on them, is false.  It is not a violation of agency, for example, to require church members to wear a mask into a church building during a time of pandemic.  
 

I like what you wrote here.  Universal salvation occasionally rears its head but violates agency.  I especially like the bolded section.  It appears to be an eternal principle that the more we choose wrong the less agency we retain, and the opposite appears to be true.  The more laws we are subject to and obey in righteousness the more freedom to choose we will have in the end.

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50 minutes ago, Duncan said:

not to be  a pick but when they say universal salvation I think they mean exaltation, everyone will be saved except the SOP, in a kingdom of glory but it's up to us what kingdom.

True.
But there is still a mentality that pops up that God's mercy is so great that the majority will actually get Celestial exaltation.  God just wouldn't be mean enough to deny anyone honest in heart all the blessings.
Except scripture indicates otherwise.

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59 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

True.
But there is still a mentality that pops up that God's mercy is so great that the majority will actually get Celestial exaltation.  God just wouldn't be mean enough to deny anyone honest in heart all the blessings.
Except scripture indicates otherwise.

I think there is a possibility that everyone will attain celestial glory, someday, eventually, as long as those who don't get it sooner than later continue to try to learn everything they can about everything that is true.

Knowledge is power in regard to intelligence/glory and those with less knowledge will still have the ability to learn more as long as they are willing to try and know who they should learn from.

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5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think there is a possibility that everyone will attain celestial glory, someday, eventually, as long as those who don't get it sooner than later continue to try to learn everything they can about everything that is true.

Knowledge is power in regard to intelligence/glory and those with less knowledge will still have the ability to learn more as long as they are willing to try and know who they should learn from.

I agree with that, but then I'm an eternal progression believer.

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2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

True.
But there is still a mentality that pops up that God's mercy is so great that the majority will actually get Celestial exaltation.  God just wouldn't be mean enough to deny anyone honest in heart all the blessings.
Except scripture indicates otherwise.

I suspect the honest in heart will pretty much all make it but I suspect that people are rather generous with giving themselves and others that label.

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

God just wouldn't be mean enough to deny anyone honest in heart all the blessings.

God is serious enough to require anyone willing to attain the responsibilities of becoming a Heavenly Parent to go through a rigorous testing/purification/exalting process.  Most probably are NOT willing to undergo the endurance and sacrifices to make it to the top degree.

God must determine if a candidate will be strictly faithful and trustworthy enough and full of love (charity) to be able to invite intelligences to become spirit children, properly train them throughout the pre-existence, abide by Eternal Law of Justice to carefully prepare a new Plan of Happiness (creation, fall, atonement, judgment, exaltation, etc) and then acquire greater dominions.

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This is where I have a problem with agency. Our life here is guided by genetics and environment, plus whatever we came with from the pre- mortal arena. Where and when we are born must have something to do with how we behave. I always assumed that spirts were innocent as they were born. If so, then a spirit born into the city of Enoch or during the 200 years of Nephite peace would be equivalent to one born in the slums of India or the streets of Pompeii . Did God send only the righteous to Enoch and only the real baddies to nasty times and places? It seems obvious that one time and place would have many more trials and temptations than another. How can we talk about a righteous generation or a wicked one ? The child born of meth -head parents already has a harder road ahead than one born to kind and loving ones. 

As an aside: I have knowledge of a relative who was born in a country where abortion was legal and socially acceptable. Over her life she had 13 abortions. It was her method of birth control. This was over 50 years ago. I doubt she was the only one. 

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5 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

This is where I have a problem with agency. Our life here is guided by genetics and environment, plus whatever we came with from the pre- mortal arena. Where and when we are born must have something to do with how we behave. I always assumed that spirts were innocent as they were born. If so, then a spirit born into the city of Enoch or during the 200 years of Nephite peace would be equivalent to one born in the slums of India or the streets of Pompeii . Did God send only the righteous to Enoch and only the real baddies to nasty times and places? It seems obvious that one time and place would have many more trials and temptations than another. How can we talk about a righteous generation or a wicked one ? The child born of meth -head parents already has a harder road ahead than one born to kind and loving ones. 

As an aside: I have knowledge of a relative who was born in a country where abortion was legal and socially acceptable. Over her life she had 13 abortions. It was her method of birth control. This was over 50 years ago. I doubt she was the only one. 

tell me about it. I wonder about these things too, people are born and seemingly get knocked down in the race before they even really get going. My Dad has a relative that was raped during the Napoleanic War Era but some unknown male, there was so much of that stuff going on they even gave it a name-along with other brutalities, La Maraude. I couldn't even imagine trying to figure out all this stuff but I guess this is where we just have to trust God and his mercy and justice will prevail

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6 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

This is where I have a problem with agency. Our life here is guided by genetics and environment, plus whatever we came with from the pre- mortal arena. Where and when we are born must have something to do with how we behave. I always assumed that spirts were innocent as they were born. If so, then a spirit born into the city of Enoch or during the 200 years of Nephite peace would be equivalent to one born in the slums of India or the streets of Pompeii . Did God send only the righteous to Enoch and only the real baddies to nasty times and places? It seems obvious that one time and place would have many more trials and temptations than another. How can we talk about a righteous generation or a wicked one ? The child born of meth -head parents already has a harder road ahead than one born to kind and loving ones. 

As an aside: I have knowledge of a relative who was born in a country where abortion was legal and socially acceptable. Over her life she had 13 abortions. It was her method of birth control. This was over 50 years ago. I doubt she was the only one. 

Agency is only about having the power to choose among options, usually in relation to good vs evil.  And none of us get all of the same options or make the same exact choices, because none of us are in the same exact situation as anyone else.  

So, yeah, boohoo that I don't get the choice to decide what to do with 1 billion dollars, like some other people get to decide what to do with in this world.  And boohoo that my parents didn't remain married after I turned 4 years old and that none of them saved up for a college fund for me.  And boohoo that nobody taught me what I needed to know to become monetarily very very successful in this world while making sure that I knew what I needed to know what it would take to make that happen.  I could probably cry you a river of all of my boohoos if I felt the need to do that.  But at least God helped to open my mind and fill it with enough light for me to be able to see what the true church of Jesus Christ was when I found it.  And he can do that for anybody.

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14 hours ago, Ahab said:

And yet, no rep point.  Tough crowd here.  I still feel like Rodney Dangerfield, a little bit.

Covid has me not at my sharpest at the moment...

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