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And there was war in heaven...


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From modern revelation we understand this war was about agency but I would be keen to hear what other insights you all might have found researching and pondering this topic.

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I've read previously that the war was akin to a contentious testimony meeting. It wasn't war as we conceive it, but a war of persuasion and ideology. Think about the spread of half-truths today, echo chambers, commentators becoming trusted new sources that go beyond the facts, but the interpretations thereof. Lucifer was able to make a persuasive argument against the risks associated with faith and trust in Jesus Christ, that He would live perfectly and resist all temptations, in His mission to become the Savior. A great many of our brothers and sisters adopted Lucifer's "perspective" and view as being true and valid, but they were deceived.

On my mission we did an activity for zone conference on the War in Heaven, this war of ideology. Groups of four people were arranged like so: one person would be in favor of the Father's plan, another for Lucifer's plan, and two people would be neutrals to be persuaded either way. They sent the four of us (I think there were 8-10 groups overall) to different rooms throughout the Church building to have a 10 minute roleplay using our assigned parts. Those who were neutral were to play the part of hopeful but uncertain learner, fearful doubter, and so forth. At the end of the time we would gather together again and share insights.

I was fortunate enough to be called upon to advocate the Father's plan, and from what I could tell due to pre-planning all those who were to advocate the adversary's plan were already the "devil's advocate" type. When we came together again we got a lecture from our Mission President's wife about how she didn't like the activity, and after having participated as a neutral party hearing the conversations for and against the Father's plan, wasn't in favor of what had been planned and executed.

I learned a great deal, and was left with much to ponder. I felt that the Spirit revealed to me some of the actual arguments made in Heaven.

1. "Why would you want a body? You're going to suffer horribly, have pain all the days of your life, and all on the slim chance that the "best" of us can remain pure and perfect in the face of it all. Is that a risk worth taking? My plan would save you without those trials, and you wouldn't even have to worry about not making it back."

2. "Brother, remember who it is we're talking about: Jehovah, our Father's eldest, who we have known and loved, and who has ever served us for ages and eons. You're afraid, and uncertain about where this journey to earth will take you, I understand how unsettling it must be. I have one question that may help you settle your mind and all other concerns: can you trust Jehovah, and our Father? Think on everything we've done and learned together as a family, you know He won't ever forsake you, He never has and never will. That is all you need to consider right now, ponder on it, and talk to Him first. He loves you, and I love you. It will be okay!"

Those are some of my thoughts and experiences as I've pondered and learned through study and prayer.

Edited by Gillebre
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51 minutes ago, Gillebre said:

I've read previously that the war was akin to a contentious testimony meeting. It wasn't war as we conceive it, but a war of persuasion and ideology. Think about the spread of half-truths today, echo chambers, commentators becoming trusted new sources that go beyond the facts, but the interpretations thereof. Lucifer was able to make a persuasive argument against the risks associated with faith and trust in Jesus Christ, that He would live perfectly and resist all temptations, in His mission to become the Savior. A great many of our brothers and sisters adopted Lucifer's "perspective" and view as being true and valid, but they were deceived.

On my mission we did an activity for zone conference on the War in Heaven, this war of ideology. Groups of four people were arranged like so: one person would be in favor of the Father's plan, another for Lucifer's plan, and two people would be neutrals to be persuaded either way. They sent the four of us (I think there were 8-10 groups overall) to different rooms throughout the Church building to have a 10 minute roleplay using our assigned parts. Those who were neutral were to play the part of hopeful but uncertain learner, fearful doubter, and so forth. At the end of the time we would gather together again and share insights.

I was fortunate enough to be called upon to advocate the Father's plan, and from what I could tell due to pre-planning all those who were to advocate the adversary's plan were already the "devil's advocate" type. When we came together again we got a lecture from our Mission President's wife about how she didn't like the activity, and after having participated as a neutral party hearing the conversations for and against the Father's plan, wasn't in favor of what had been planned and executed.

I learned a great deal, and was left with much to ponder. I felt that the Spirit revealed to me some of the actual arguments made in Heaven.

1. "Why would you want a body? You're going to suffer horribly, have pain all the days of your life, and all on the slim chance that the "best" of us can remain pure and perfect in the face of it all. Is that a risk worth taking? My plan would save you without those trials, and you wouldn't even have to worry about not making it back."

2. "Brother, remember who it is we're talking about: Jehovah, our Father's eldest, who we have known and loved, and who has ever served us for ages and eons. You're afraid, and uncertain about where this journey to earth will take you, I understand how unsettling it must be. I have one question that may help you settle your mind and all other concerns: can you trust Jehovah, and our Father? Think on everything we've done and learned together as a family, you know He won't ever forsake you, He never has and never will. That is all you need to consider right now, ponder on it, and talk to Him first. He loves you, and I love you. It will be okay!"

Those are some of my thoughts and experiences as I've pondered and learned through study and prayer.

Thanks for sharing this, absolutely brilliant!

In my mind as a non-American when I look at all that goes on behind the scenes and in the public eye during a presidential election I wonder if that is also possibly similar to what the war in heaven was like?

Edited by gav
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7 minutes ago, gav said:

Thanks for sharing this, absolutely brilliant!

In my mind as a non-American when I look at all that goes on behind the scenes and in the public eye during a presidential election I wonder if that is also possibly similar to what the war in heaven was like?

I think we stand a lot to learn about the war as it was in Heaven before we came to earth, and much more about the ongoing war as Satan attacks the children of God from all sides here in mortality. I think to ponder and consider the implications is of grave importance to our spiritual safety in the last days as part of our commitment to follow the Prophet.

How can we defend against an enemy whose tactics haven't been considered and broken down into their base strategies? The leaders of the Church already do this, but I think we can afford to take their guidance and counsel together to better understand the traps, keeping our "tent doors" pointed to the Temple and the Prophet. With an eye towards the higher perspective of eternity we can start to spot the schemes and fiery darts of the adversary, and I can with complete confidence say that ignorance of his ways in our society and culture will only make us extremely vulnerable to being mislead and beguiled. We can ask ourselves questions like: what spiritual implications are there for us individually and for the Zion society we are striving to be ready for and worthy of? Close attention to the books of Helaman as well as 3rd and 4th Nephi (and later Mormon/Moroni) could help us consider how Satan was able to inspire the destruction of Nephite society. We don't want to repeat those mistakes.

I feel like I rambled a little bit, but I felt compelled to write as the inspiration came for my own life and where I can be more mindful.

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Something to keep in mind is God had a plan of salvation, he was looking for volunteers, not for alternative plans. For all we know there could have been other people who volunteered to carry out the plan with limited results.

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6 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Something to keep in mind is God had a plan of salvation, he was looking for volunteers, not for alternative plans. For all we know there could have been other people who volunteered to carry out the plan with limited results.

I don't think the plan works with limited results. You have to have a Savior who can "go all the way" and perform the infinite atonement.

Under the Brigham Young/Orson Pratt idea, the saviors (multiple) can only be the firstborn of multiple wives (superior intelligence). Each world also needs its own tempter, a high-ranking, powerful-but-ambitious-and-evil son (multiple). Under the Brigham Young/Heber C. Kimball "potters wheel" idea, you never run out of candidates for the adversary because sons of perdition are unmade and start over with their uncreated evil intelligence. And, under Joseph Smith's Sermon in the Grove and King Follet Discourse idea, Elohim have to have been saviors themselves. Thus, Jehovah will have firstborn spirit sons who will step into that role.

Despite the appearance of volunteers in the scriptures, I think everyone already knew who the only candidates were. The question was what it has always been: would it be possible to do it another way (the straightjacket no agency plan), even if it has never succeeded before? Could we be the ones to have it succeed? I also think that those who fell feared the risk. I think that we (who kept our first estate) were also scared of the risk, but a) wanted the reward, despite the risk, and b) heeded and believed the "cooler heads" that prevailed (Michael, Jehovah, and other noble and great ones) that not only was this the only way that would work, Jehovah will come through for us and not fail. Our faith and trust in Him is well-placed!

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1 hour ago, rongo said:

I don't think the plan works with limited results. You have to have a Savior who can "go all the way" and perform the infinite atonement.

Under the Brigham Young/Orson Pratt idea, the saviors (multiple) can only be the firstborn of multiple wives (superior intelligence). Each world also needs its own tempter, a high-ranking, powerful-but-ambitious-and-evil son (multiple). Under the Brigham Young/Heber C. Kimball "potters wheel" idea, you never run out of candidates for the adversary because sons of perdition are unmade and start over with their uncreated evil intelligence. And, under Joseph Smith's Sermon in the Grove and King Follet Discourse idea, Elohim have to have been saviors themselves. Thus, Jehovah will have firstborn spirit sons who will step into that role.

Despite the appearance of volunteers in the scriptures, I think everyone already knew who the only candidates were. The question was what it has always been: would it be possible to do it another way (the straightjacket no agency plan), even if it has never succeeded before? Could we be the ones to have it succeed? I also think that those who fell feared the risk. I think that we (who kept our first estate) were also scared of the risk, but a) wanted the reward, despite the risk, and b) heeded and believed the "cooler heads" that prevailed (Michael, Jehovah, and other noble and great ones) that not only was this the only way that would work, Jehovah will come through for us and not fail. Our faith and trust in Him is well-placed!

I can see how Lucifer would have pitched his idea to be a saviour, do you really want to believe in Jehovah to the be the Saviour? what if he screws up or makes a misstep? do you really want to place your entire future on one person? With his plane, it seemed like the safer option

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5 hours ago, gav said:

From modern revelation we understand this war was about agency but I would be keen to hear what other insights you all might have found researching and pondering this topic.

Many years ago I imagined Satan’s plan involved the requirement that we keep the commandments of God, but that in some manner we’d be compelled to obey the law whether we wanted to or not. I imagined this was the case because we’re taught Satan’s plan would destroy the agency of man and it’s hard to imagine a more effective way to destroy agency that by forcing others to do do things, or not do things, against their will.

But I’ve long since come to realize there’s another way to destroy agency without having to use compulsory force, and that would be by removing any and all negative consequences for committing sin by radically redefining the parameters of sin. For example, in Satan’s kingdom there would be no negative consequences for having sex and getting pregnant out of wedlock because all a woman would have to do is have her unborn baby aborted and be able do so without any negative judgements that might otherwise cause her to feel shame, guilt or remorse of conscience. In fact, in Satan’s world sexual morality would be so radically redefined that having an abortion would be considered good and even laudable.

Now imagine a world where nothing is considered a sin and therefore there are no consequences for sin and you have a system where no atoning sacrifice for sin would be required. But in such a world there actually might be something that would be construed as a form of sin, and that would be to assert that sin exists in the first place.

Edited by teddyaware
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12 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

But I’ve long since come to realize there’s another way to destroy agency without having to use compulsory force, and that would be by removing any and all negative consequences for committing sin by radically redefining the parameters of sin

Which appeals to people more these days...having a script they must follow day in and day out with no choice or being able to do whatever one wants with no consequences?  I assume we were not that different in our previous estate that somehow so many would prefer the no choice option over trying the Lord’s plan...though perhaps fear of not measuring up might get someone there.  But the no consequences seems much more in line with how evil influences now and I don’t see Satan setting himself up for a huge amount of work. No law means no work for a lawgiver, after all. 
 

I imagine Satan might have thought he could pressure God into agreeing if enough of his children insisted that no consequences be the ‘rule’, just go to earth, live life, and God can make it all good for us since he loves us do much, right?  
 

Otoh, if this world is one of millions this has played out on, that seems unlikely that Satan would assume in this one case God will do things differently. Makes me wonder just how much was known and if some variation occurred in how the Plan played out in different worlds. 

Edited by Calm
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37 minutes ago, Calm said:

Which appeals to people more these days...having a script they must follow day in and day out with no choice or being able to do whatever one wants with no consequences?  I assume we were not that different in our previous estate that somehow so many would prefer the no choice option over trying the Lord’s plan...though perhaps fear of not measuring up might get someone there.  But the no consequences seems much more in line with how evil influences now and I don’t see Satan setting himself up for a huge amount of work. No law means no work for a lawgiver, after all. 
 

I imagine Satan might have thought he could pressure God into agreeing if enough of his children insisted that no consequences be the ‘rule’, just go to earth, live life, and God can make it all good for us since he loves us do much, right?  
 

Otoh, if this world is one of millions this has played out on, that seems unlikely that Satan would assume in this one case God will do things differently. Makes me wonder just how much was known and if some variation occurred in how the Plan played out in different worlds. 

The thing that must be understood is the power of darkness comes will strong allure, a power of temptation that’s powerful enough to overcome reason, common sense, and caution. The tempting power of darkness is so great that even though there are millions of examples of extremely negative consequences suffered for certain deleterious behaviors that it would seem any reasonably intelligent person would be able to just shake their head and say no, yet drug addiction, alcoholism, criminal behaviors that risk long prison sentences and unwanted pregnancies proliferate at alarming rates. All the powerful object lessons that abound at every hand to give solemn warning appear to have little deterrent value and effect for far too many. Why should we expect it to be any different for Satan and those whom he’s ensnared?

Edited by teddyaware
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14 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

The tempting power of darkness is so great that even though there are millions of examples of extremely negative consequences suffered for certain deleterious behaviors that it would seem any reasonably intelligent person would be able to just shake their head and say no, yet drug addiction, alcoholism, criminal behaviors that risk long prison sentences and unwanted pregnancies proliferate at alarming rates.

But in mortality we also have many examples of people doing stupid or evil stuff and not suffering from it, not everyone becomes a drug or gambling addict for example.

So it becomes easy to think not “ I will be the only exception”, but “l will be one of the ones who gets away with it” 

If there is no variation to the Plan in the many examples we saw in the Preexistence, such rationalization could not take place.

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1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Many years ago I imagined Satan’s plan involved the requirement that we keep the commandments of God, but that in some manner we’d be compelled to obey the law whether we wanted to or not. I imagined this was the case because we’re taught Satan’s plan would destroy the agency of man and it’s hard to imagine a more effective way to destroy agency that by forcing others to do do things, or not do things, against their will.

But I’ve long since come to realize there’s another way to destroy agency without having to use compulsory force, and that would be by removing any and all negative consequences for committing sin by radically redefining the parameters of sin. For example, in Satan’s kingdom there would be no negative consequences for having sex and getting pregnant out of wedlock because all a woman would have to do is have her unborn baby aborted and be able do so without any negative judgements that might otherwise cause her to feel shame, guilt or remorse of conscience. In fact, in Satan’s world sexual morality would be so radically redefined that having an abortion would be considered good and even laudable.

Now imagine a world where nothing is considered a sin and therefore there are no consequences for sin and you have a system where no atoning sacrifice for sin would be required. But in such a world there actually might be something that would be construed as a form of sin, and that would be to assert that sin exists in the first place.

Some people believe that members of the church have no agency, the church makes all of your decisions and you are stuck with the consequences-whether you like or not. 

I don't believe any of that nonsense you say about abortion or no consequences. I believe you can't actually destroy agency, which is probably why Satan was rejected as a candidate. The world you envision of no consequences to,  the world said good bye to all that junk and now we are moving on

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The 'war in heaven' is right now. This is it. One son has been giving his presentation for thousands of years and we have had that captivity because we have chosen and embodied that plan (collectively, not necessarily individually).

I think the term 'struggle' is better than war.

The struggle is for the purpose of coming into union (love) with one anther while preserving freedom.

In 1 Nephi 14 we are taught that there are only two paths. One path is captivity and destruction. One path is liberty, peace, and life.

Hopefully, the presentation of the second son (the second who spoke) is about to begin over most of the earth (although it has been available for individuals and small groups at all times), where liberty, peace, and life will be the fruit of embodying the plan and knowledge of this son.

What is your vote? Which son? You can only vote by embodying the vote.

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Which appeals to people more these days...having a script they must follow day in and day out with no choice or being able to do whatever one wants with no consequences?  I assume we were not that different in our previous estate that somehow so many would prefer the no choice option over trying the Lord’s plan...though perhaps fear of not measuring up might get someone there.  But the no consequences seems much more in line with how evil influences now and I don’t see Satan setting himself up for a huge amount of work. No law means no work for a lawgiver, after all. 
 

I imagine Satan might have thought he could pressure God into agreeing if enough of his children insisted that no consequences be the ‘rule’, just go to earth, live life, and God can make it all good for us since he loves us do much, right?  
 

Otoh, if this world is one of millions this has played out on, that seems unlikely that Satan would assume in this one case God will do things differently. Makes me wonder just how much was known and if some variation occurred in how the Plan played out in different worlds. 

I've often thought on the idea that perhaps Satan had more sinister motivations...that to some extent he knew that the only way to get some semblance of God's power (as he in his limited view perceives it) was to enslave others to his will through sin and darkness. I also wonder what inspiration he took from the example of other worlds, were there other tempters on other worlds that he knew about and learned how they sought power and their own glory? How much information did we have about the lives and destinies of other worlds gone before?

Agency, in my opinion, is used in one of two ways: either you give it to the Savior willingly, and He returns it, having made you like Him, or in the end you give it to Satan by not accepting the Savior's sacrifice on your behalf and allowing Him to make you into a new creature. With Satan you become a slave in darkness, having traded your agency for chains and being bound to his will and pleasure. In the end I think there are no other paths, no matter what the world teaches or believes, you either accept Him or you don't. Thankfully after this life everyone who didn't have the full and complete opportunity to learn and and accept the Savior will be ministered to and given that chance.

From Elder Cardon's February 2008 Ensign article "Choose Liberty and Eternal Life" quoting the Book of Mormon:

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“And because [the children of men] are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon. … And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil” 

 

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One of the best insights into what happened in the war in heaven is what the scriptures tell us about the results.

1.  A “third” of the host of heaven were irretrievably and permanently lost...beyond the reach of even an infinite atonement.  For me, the most logical explanation of what those souls did in the war in heaven to lose any hope for redemption and exaltation is to look at the standard in mortality for losing any hope for redemption and exaltation...become a Son of Perdition. 
 

2.  Billions of our brothers and sisters (those who don’t become accountable in mortality, because of death or mental incapacity) will inherit the Celestial Kingdom without being tested in mortality.  For me, the most logical explanation of what those souls did in the war in heaven to gain exaltation is to look at the standard in mortality for gaining exaltation prior to the end of a period of testing...have your calling and election made sure.

Clearly the war in heaven provided our Heavenly Parents’ sons and daughters circumstances that allowed each of them to both irreversibly gain exaltation as well as irreversibly lose any chance for exaltation.

Thus when we’re taught that a “third” of the host of heaven were irretrievably lost, it can also be said that a “third” of the host of heaven gained exaltation, and a “third” of the host of heaven came to earth to work out there salvation.  I believe the use of a third in the context of those who were lost in the war in heaven isn’t a description of the number who were lost but a signal that there were three possible results for God’s children in the war in heaven.

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2 hours ago, Duncan said:

Some people believe that members of the church have no agency, the church makes all of your decisions and you are stuck with the consequences-whether you like or not. 

I don't believe any of that nonsense you say about abortion or no consequences. I believe you can't actually destroy agency, which is probably why Satan was rejected as a candidate. The world you envision of no consequences to,  the world said good bye to all that junk and now we are moving on

The Church doesn’t make anyone do anything. People who don’t want to do what they are counseled to do leave the Church and have their names removed from the records all the time.

Please provide some detail about what you mean when you say what I said about abortion is nonsense? What nonsense? Are you denying abortion is legal and treated as a virtual sacred right by those on the so-called “progressive” left?

I don’t envision nor want a world with no consequences for sin. I was simply wondering aloud if that’s what Satan’s plan is all about? To me it seems perfectly logical to wonder if  that’s what the war in heaven may have focused on because the Church leaders testify the war in heaven is continuing on earth, as more and more people of the world insist there is no God, that many of the acts listed in the Bible as sins are actually good and wholesome, and that there is no eternal truth.

Edited by teddyaware
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19 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

One of the best insights into what happened in the war in heaven is what the scriptures tell us about the results.

1.  A “third” of the host of heaven were irretrievably and permanently lost...beyond the reach of even an infinite atonement.  For me, the most logical explanation of what those souls did in the war in heaven to lose any hope for redemption and exaltation is to look at the standard in mortality for losing any hope for redemption and exaltation...become a Son of Perdition. 
 

2.  Billions of our brothers and sisters (those who don’t become accountable in mortality, because of death or mental incapacity) will inherit the Celestial Kingdom without being tested in mortality.  For me, the most logical explanation of what those souls did in the war in heaven to gain exaltation is to look at the standard in mortality for gaining exaltation prior to the end of a period of testing...have your calling and election made sure.

Clearly the war in heaven provided our Heavenly Parents’ sons and daughters circumstances that allowed each of them to both irreversibly gain exaltation as well as irreversibly lose any chance for exaltation.

Thus when we’re taught that a “third” of the host of heaven were irretrievably lost, it can also be said that a “third” of the host of heaven gained exaltation, and a “third” of the host of heaven came to earth to work out there salvation.  I believe the use of a third in the context of those who were lost in the war in heaven isn’t a description of the number who were lost but a signal that there were three possible results for God’s children in the war in heaven.

This is not the first time I've heard this theory.  Some have suggested that the expression actually used "third part" implies three groupings, not a precise 1 out of 3.  Perhaps the three groups you describe clarifies this.

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Just now, teddyaware said:

The Church doesn’t make anyone do anything. People who don’t want to do what they are counseled to do leave the Church and have their names removed from the records all the time.

Please provide some detail about what you mean when you say what I said about abortion is nonsense? What nonsense? Are you denying abortion is legal and treated as a virtual sacred right by those on the so-called “progressive” left?

I don’t envision nor want a world with no consequences for sin. I was simply wondering aloud if that’s what Satan’s plan is all about? To me it seems perfectly logical to wonder if  that’s what the war in heaven may have focused on because the Church leaders testify the war in heaven is continues on earth, as more and more people of the world are insist there is no God, that many of the acts listed in the Bible as sins are actually good and wholesome, and that there is no eternal truth.

um, whaat to the first? "People who don’t want to do what they are counseled to do leave the Church and have their names removed from the records all the time." So, if someone says no to advice from the Bishop they leave the church? 

You seem to have an extremely narrow concept of abortion. "For example, in Satan’s kingdom there would be no negative consequences for having sex and getting pregnant out of wedlock because all a woman would have to do is have her unborn baby aborted and be able do so without any negative judgements that might otherwise cause her to feel shame, guilt or remorse of conscience. In fact, in Satan’s world sexual morality would be so radically redefined that having an abortion would be considered good and even laudable."

You honestly think that women just go out and get pregnant and get an abortion and then society won't be judging them and she won't ever feel shame or guilt? how many women do that? like 8 women in history? You seem to be an expert in "Satan's world" how do you know what his plan is? did he tell you? You honestly think people who have had an abortion don't feel bad regardless of what society thinks? You put all the blame on women, why? what is that all about? What do you feel about rapists who go free or get light sentences? what do you think about sex trafficking? Would your opinion about Isabel change if you knew she was sex trafficked? Let's face it you aren't anyone's judge, even if someone had an abortion you don't get to be the judge of the situation, not now not ever. I hope you expand your mind towards people that have had that happen. 

The world is full of positive and negative consequences, you nor anyone else can make it otherwise, you reap what you sow. Everyone will stand before God someday and he will judge, he alone knows knows all the factors in our life and what we knew. We weren't called to judge people, teddyaware but comfort those that need comfort and mourn with those that mourn.

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20 hours ago, rongo said:

Under the Brigham Young/Orson Pratt idea, the saviors (multiple) can only be the firstborn of multiple wives (superior intelligence). Each world also needs its own tempter, a high-ranking, powerful-but-ambitious-and-evil son (multiple). Under the Brigham Young/Heber C. Kimball "potters wheel" idea, you never run out of candidates for the adversary because sons of perdition are unmade and start over with their uncreated evil intelligence.

Interesting.  I often wondered if those who are destined to fill the role of 'Christ' and 'Adversary' were genetically modified to become such considering the importance of each role, that to leave it to chance/evolution for them to randomly appear would severely slow a god's progression.  I think God had a purpose for Jesus and Lucifer the moment they were conceived into His family and received the special mentoring that was needed to fulfill their individual roles. It would be a simple matter for Lucifer to undo God's trial of mans' agency by tempting people to do good instead of evil, yet he can't because that is his not his role and is compelled to entice others to do evil in order to fulfill God's plan as he was designed to do as bolded in the scripture below:

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And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice. (Moses 4:4)

 

If Lucifer had any personal motivation to walk away from God, It would be as the scripturas say because of personal glory, he who saves the world(s) will inherit those who inhabited it and they will become his children (John 17:7-12).  Because of his pride, there was no way he, the 'Son of the Morning' was going to subject himself to his brother Jesus and call Him his king.  Lucifer knew exactly what he was doing from experience and knowledge of other executed plans.  He knew he was going to be cast out with some followers, he knew he will gain more followers from their mortal trials, and as far as we know everything is going according to his plan.  Between God the Father, Jesus the Christ, and Lucifer it's a win-win-win plan.

I don't know if I would call it a war as everyone ends up where they want to be with their choices.  A war suggests people suffering because of being outmatched by the opponent and that hardly seems fair. 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Duncan said:

um, whaat to the first? "People who don’t want to do what they are counseled to do leave the Church and have their names removed from the records all the time." So, if someone says no to advice from the Bishop they leave the church? 

You seem to have an extremely narrow concept of abortion. "For example, in Satan’s kingdom there would be no negative consequences for having sex and getting pregnant out of wedlock because all a woman would have to do is have her unborn baby aborted and be able do so without any negative judgements that might otherwise cause her to feel shame, guilt or remorse of conscience. In fact, in Satan’s world sexual morality would be so radically redefined that having an abortion would be considered good and even laudable."

You honestly think that women just go out and get pregnant and get an abortion and then society won't be judging them and she won't ever feel shame or guilt? how many women do that? like 8 women in history? You seem to be an expert in "Satan's world" how do you know what his plan is? did he tell you? You honestly think people who have had an abortion don't feel bad regardless of what society thinks? You put all the blame on women, why? what is that all about? What do you feel about rapists who go free or get light sentences? what do you think about sex trafficking? Would your opinion about Isabel change if you knew she was sex trafficked? Let's face it you aren't anyone's judge, even if someone had an abortion you don't get to be the judge of the situation, not now not ever. I hope you expand your mind towards people that have had that happen. 

The world is full of positive and negative consequences, you nor anyone else can make it otherwise, you reap what you sow. Everyone will stand before God someday and he will judge, he alone knows knows all the factors in our life and what we knew. We weren't called to judge people, teddyaware but comfort those that need comfort and mourn with those that mourn.

As I said, I was WONDERING out loud if it could be that Satan’s ultimate goal is to create a world in which the things God has repeatedly declared to be sin are no longer considered to be sin? Do you deny that premarital sex, out of wedlock pregnancies, and abortion for convenience (or even as a form of birth control) are no longer considered to be moral failures by an increasingly large proportion of the world’s population? And is sin no longer sin just because someone feels bad afterward but never actually gets around to repenting?

You appear to suffer under the delusion that Satan and his host are unable to get such a firm grip on the minds and hearts of an entire society until the people get to the point where they are “past feeling” because their consciences are “seared with a hot iron.” The Lord repeatedly warns that when a society becomes so hardened in sin that they no longer feel any guilt, shame or remorse when they violate laws of God, the only thing such a society is fit for is divinely decreed utter destruction. This process that leads to a population wide callous disregard for God’s laws and the extinguishing of inborn light of Christ is called “ripening in iniquity.”

The United States of America is rapidly heading in that direction and the scriptures solemnly warn us that at the time of the Second Coming the earth will be so ripened in iniquity and hatred for God that the vast majority of the earth’s inhabitants are going to be destroyed in massive cataclysmic destructions of every kind, just like what the Nephites experienced at the death of Christ except for the fact that it will be far worse and worldwide in scope.

As President Ezra Taft Benson warned in his last General Conference address, when the time of the Second Coming there will be only two remaining choices for each accountable member of the human race to make, choose to become a faithful member of the Church of God or choose go over to the side of the devil in total rebellion. And what will be that last straw that will bring our avenging Lord down from heaven to rescue his saints? That final point will be reached when the members of the church of the devil decide they hate God so much that they mightily arm themselves in order to wipe every last believer in God and Christ off the face of the earth. And after the members of the church of the devil are destroyed in the flesh by the Lord they will be thrust into hell to suffer the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God until, hopefully, they finally learn how to feel regret, shame and remorse of conscience for their sins. This can only happen when the divinely implanted human conscience, activated by the light of Christ is obliterated.

Witness a society ripening in iniquity. Here’s a short video showing women who are proud and rejoicing over the fact that they had abortions.  

 

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24 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

As I said, I was WONDERING out loud if it could be that Satan’s ultimate goal is to create a world in which the things God has repeatedly declared to be sin are no longer considered to be sin? Do you deny that premarital sex, out of wedlock pregnancies, and abortion for convenience (or even as a form of birth control) are no longer considered to be moral failures by an increasingly large proportion of the world’s population? And is sin no longer sin just because someone feels bad afterward but never actually gets around to repenting?

You appear to suffer under the delusion that Satan and his host are unable to get such a firm grip on the minds and hearts of an entire society until the people get to the point where they are “past feeling” because their consciences are “seared with a hot iron.” The Lord repeatedly warns that when a society becomes so hardened in sin that they no longer feel any guilt, shame or remorse when they violate laws of God, the only thing such a society is fit for is divinely decreed utter destruction. This process that leads to a population wide callous disregard for God’s laws and the extinguishing of inborn light of Christ is called “ripening in iniquity.”

The United States of America is rapidly heading in that direction and the scriptures solemnly warn us that at the time of the Second Coming the earth will be so ripened in iniquity and hatred for God that the vast majority of the earth’s inhabitants are going to be destroyed in massive cataclysmic destructions of every kind, just like what the Nephites experienced at the death of Christ except for the fact that it will be far worse and worldwide in scope.

As President Ezra Taft Benson warned in his last General Conference address, when the time of the Second Coming there will be only two remaining choices for each accountable member of the human race to make, choose to become a faithful member of the Church of God or choose go over to the side of the devil in total rebellion. And what will be that last straw that will bring our avenging Lord down from heaven to rescue his saints? That final point will be reached when the members of the church of the devil decide they hate God so much that they mightily arm themselves in order to wipe every last believer in God and Christ off the face of the earth. And after the members of the church of the devil are destroyed in the flesh by the Lord they will be thrust into hell to suffer the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God until, hopefully, they finally learn how to feel regret, shame and remorse of conscience for their sins. This can only happen when the divinely implanted human conscience, activated by the light of Christ is obliterated.

Witness a society ripening in iniquity. Here’s a short video showing women who are proud and rejoicing over the fact that they had abortions.  

 

Like I said 8 women. Are you sure they are serious? are you willing to take over Christ's role as judge of them to determine that? Good luck!

"Do you deny that premarital sex, out of wedlock pregnancies, and abortion for convenience (or even as a form of birth control) are no longer considered to be moral failures by an increasingly large proportion of the world’s population?" yes, I deny that and I wouldn't lump the third option of abortion for convenience with the first two. You don't know the how and the why of the first two, you just seem to think they are sinful-what if you found out a 15 yr girl had premarital sex and then later found out she was sex trafficked? We don't know the details, so why judge them?

"And is sin no longer sin just because someone feels bad afterward but never actually gets around to repenting?" how many abortions do you think women have? I know a currently serving GA's wife who had 3 of them but it's a whole story.

"You appear to suffer under the delusion that Satan and his host are unable to get such a firm grip on the minds and hearts of an entire society until the people get to the point where they are “past feeling” because their consciences are “seared with a hot iron.” The Lord repeatedly warns that when a society becomes so hardened in sin that they no longer feel any guilt, shame or remorse when they violate laws of God, the only thing such a society is fit for is divinely decreed utter destruction. This process that leads to a population wide callous disregard for God’s laws and the extinguishing of inborn light of Christ is called “ripening in iniquity.”"

I will grant you that there is a lot of delusion out there, mostly coming from this point. Is your delusion past the point where you are judging who is "past feeling" and has a "conscience seared with a hot iron" do you really think you are God? are you that kind of delusional? I am familiar with "ripening in iniquity" I am unfamiliar with the part that you have anything to do with abortion, unless you go on ledges and scream at people

"The United States of America is rapidly heading in that direction and the scriptures solemnly warn us that at the time of the Second Coming the earth will be so ripened in iniquity and hatred for God that the vast majority of the earth’s inhabitants are going to be destroyed in massive cataclysmic destructions of every kind, just like what the Nephites experienced at the death of Christ except for the fact that it will be far worse and worldwide in scope."

if you are prepared then you shall not fear? why are you afraid? do you blame people who have abortions causing the second coming? what do you think you'll be missing out on? hot date? we can't change the date of the second coming anyways, so start putting oil in your lamp

oh, speaking of delusion, President Ezra Taft Benson's last conference talk was this

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1989/10/to-the-elderly-in-the-church?lang=eng

he was speaking to the Elderly of the Church, so where you got this all this mumbo jumbo I have no idea

"President Ezra Taft Benson warned in his last General Conference address, when the time of the Second Coming there will be only two remaining choices for each accountable member of the human race to make, choose to become a faithful member of the Church of God or choose go over to the side of the devil in total rebellion. And what will be that last straw that will bring our avenging Lord down from heaven to rescue his saints? That final point will be reached when the members of the church of the devil decide they hate God so much that they mightily arm themselves in order to wipe every last believer in God and Christ off the face of the earth. And after the members of the church of the devil are destroyed in the flesh by the Lord they will be thrust into hell to suffer the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God until, hopefully, they finally learn how to feel regret, shame and remorse of conscience for their sins. This can only happen when the divinely implanted human conscience, activated by the light of Christ is obliterated."

Edited by Duncan
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I suspect the war was over something less obvious than a direct assault on agency. Probably something like convincing everyone the tree of knowledge of good and evil isn’t needed or something.

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The whole war and aftermath tells me that Satan's was full of BS.  Here he is presenting a plan that would not have anyone be lost.   Sounds great and appears to that he really had great concern for us.  Yet he loses to Christ and what does he do?  If he really cared about his fellow brothers and sisters, he would have accepted the outcome.  Instead he seeks to destroy as many as he can.  That tells me he was never sincere or cared about us when he initially offered his plan.  He did not care if any were lost.  It was all about him and we were just pawns for his goals. 

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2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The whole war and aftermath tells me that Satan's was full of BS.  Here he is presenting a plan that would not have anyone be lost.   Sounds great and appears to that he really had great concern for us.  Yet he loses to Christ and what does he do?  If he really cared about his fellow brothers and sisters, he would have accepted the outcome.  Instead he seeks to destroy as many as he can.  That tells me he was never sincere or cared about us when he initially offered his plan.  He did not care if any were lost.  It was all about him and we were just pawns for his goals. 

Makes sense, sounds a bit like Lenin, Stalin and Mao to me. 

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