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The Demands of Justice


What demands the price of Justice?  

18 members have voted

  1. 1. When justice needs to be satisfied what is payment of the price satisfying?

    • Cosmological balance (natural law)
    • God's own laws/rules
    • Offense against God personally
    • Requirements for entry to the next level (Celestial)
    • Laws of our current situation
    • Something else entirely (comment below)


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2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

 

No, to your last question.

Good faith or not, people are wrong when they say something that is true is not true, even if the reason they are wrong is because they are not in the right "sphere" which might enable them to see correctly.  God is not dead.

I've had enough of this, for now.

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1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

 What if instead of me saying something like "I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God" I said  "I know Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet of God"?  Would you also take that to mean I meant "based on my experience and practice, I possess knowledge I believe is correct to the point that I can describe God and live, benefit and swear by my knowledge" that Joseph Smith was NOT a prophet of God?  Would that be the truth?

yes.  for the speaker

what do you think this is all about?

truth is undefinable as absolute and the same for everyone because all we see through our senses are illusions- and even if they were not, if we defined truth as ONE body of knowledge, all that knowledge would be is a mental state of certitude for whoever was doing the defining.

This is not me talking this is a vast swath of secular humanity and some of the most brilliant philosophers who have ever lived.

So how do we communicate to the vast swath of secular humanity without ending up as you do saying "I am right" and they say "No you're not" ad infinitum - sound familiar?-  when in fact they have a position that simply makes no sense.?

Truth is not a thing it is not a diamond pillar around which we worship.

It is agreeing - both 0f us- on the words in a sentence which expresses our common beliefs.   There exists no other definable standard.   it is saying "i agree"

if you have a better theory go ahead and revolutionize philosophy by publishing it in a prestigeous journal and defeating all the criticism you will get.

If not, fergitaboutit 

And this is why I seldom answer you- it ends up with "yes it is", "no it's not"

there is no communication.   I think @CV75 does as good a job as anyone can.

Is there one person on this board with whom you agree ?

in politics there are two parties in the usa that think they both have the truth.

you wanna just yell yes and no to each other or do you want to get something done?

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

yes.  what do you think this is all about?

This discussion is about the truth.  Not about whether or not we agree.

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

truth is undefinable as absolute and the same for everyone because all we see through our senses are illusions- and even if they were not, if we defined truth as ONE body of knowledge, all that knowledge would be is a mental state of certitude for whoever was doing the defining.

What the truth is is knowledge of what is... and whoever knows at least something that is has a knowledge of at least some of the truth.

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

This is not me talking this is a vast swath of secular humanity and some of the most brilliant philosophers who have ever lived.

Yes this is you talking, or writing, while you share your thoughts which have been influenced by other people.

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

So how do we communicate to the vast swath of secular humanity without ending up as you do saying "I am right" and they say "No you're not" ad infinitum - sound familiar?-  when in fact they have a position that simply makes no sense.?

We don't need to argue but when trying to share what we know with others it would be helpful to mention something we know about something that is.  Even if other people choose not to believe us.

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Truth is not a thing it is not a diamond pillar around which we worship.

It is not a diamond pillar but it is a thing if knowledge can be considered a thing, and I think it is a thing, a word at least, and what could also be correctly considered an attribute.

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

It is agreeing - both 0f us- on the words in a sentence which expresses our common beliefs.   There exists no other definable standard.   it is saying "i agree"

Well, kinda sorta, but it is more like saying "It is" in response to someone mentioning something else.  

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

if you have a better theory go ahead and revolutionize philosophy by publishing it in a prestigeous journal and defeating all the criticism you will get.

As if I could ever somehow make everybody believe me.  Not even our Lord can do that.

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

If not, fergitaboutit 

And this is why I seldom answer you- it ends up with "yes it is", "no it's not"

there is no communication.   I think @CV75 does as good a job as anyone can.

Communication among multiple people is mostly about the sharing of ideas.  It will rarely if ever result in total consensus

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Is there one person on this board with whom you agree?

I think I agree with everybody some of the time, and nobody but God all of the time.  There may be a few people I would never believe.

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11 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, to your last question.

Good faith or not, people are wrong when they say something that is true is not true, even if the reason they are wrong is because they are not in the right "sphere" which might enable them to see correctly.  God is not dead.

I've had enough of this, for now.

GOD IS NOT DEAD  God communicates with us through personal revelation directly "face to face" without language.  He is the wordless "voice" in your heart, which is "still" and small.   He communicates in direct intelligence flowing into your heart and brain- so to speak, inaccurately of course because how he communicates is unspeakable.  We cannot form the words in our little brains.

But that has nothing to do with the characteristics of the truth or falsity of a sentence which is a question about linguistic logic, not about theology.  You are building the tower of Babel thinking that God is someone you can contain in the mind of man, or build a tower to reach Him.

That assumption however dead as much as the assumption that the bible is  intended to be scientifically accurate, and is essentially the same category error.

Yet again- Galileo- one of the first if not THE first "scientist" in a modern sense of empiricism said "Scripture is about how to go to heaven, not how heaven goes!

And as one of the "inventors" of science I think he knew what he was talking about and what he was NOT talking about.

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37 minutes ago, Ahab said:

This discussion is about the truth.  Not about whether or not we agree.

What the truth is is knowledge of what is... and whoever knows at least something that is has a knowledge of at least some of the truth.

Yes this is you talking, or writing, while you share your thoughts which have been influenced by other people.

We don't need to argue but when trying to share what we know with others it would be helpful to mention something we know about something that is.  Even if other people choose not to believe us.

It is not a diamond pillar but it is a thing if knowledge can be considered a thing, and I think it is a thing, a word at least, and what could also be correctly considered an attribute.

Well, kinda sorta, but it is more like saying "It is" in response to someone mentioning something else.  

As if I could ever somehow make everybody believe me.  Not even our Lord can do that.

Communication among multiple people is mostly about the sharing of ideas.  It will rarely if ever result in total consensus

I think I agree with everybody some of the time, and nobody but God all of the time.  There may be a few people I would never believe.

Great.  I agree with much of your truth

Edited by mfbukowski
I was unkind
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11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

GOD IS NOT DEAD  God communicates with us through personal revelation directly "face to face" without language.  He is the wordless "voice" in your heart, which is "still" and small.   He communicates in direct intelligence flowing into your heart and brain- so to speak, inaccurately of course because how he communicates is unspeakable.  We cannot form the words in our little brains.

But that has nothing to do with the characteristics of the truth or falsity of a sentence which is a question about linguistic logic, not about theology.  You are building the tower of Babel thinking that God is someone you can contain in the mind of man, or build a tower to reach Him.

That assumption however dead as much as the assumption that the bible is  intended to be scientifically accurate, and is essentially the same category error.

Yet again- Galileo- one of the first if not THE first "scientist" in a modern sense of empiricism said "Scripture is about how to go to heaven, not how heaven goes!

And as one of the "inventors" of science I think he knew what he was talking about and what he was NOT talking about.

Truth is not just about sentences, or whether sentences are true or false.  You and Rorty don't seem to get that, from my perspective.  Or maybe I'm just not on the right sphere to be able to agree with your perspective of truth?

The truth is a very simple thing to understand.  I think many people make it seem complicated just by not correctly understanding it.  If something "is" then that something is the truth.  Do you know what the meaning of the word "is" is?

That is all you need to understand to be able to understand what the truth is.

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Or maybe I'm just not on the right sphere to be able to agree with your perspective of truth?

Yes.  That's ok. The sun will come up tomorrow and that is the truth.

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15 hours ago, Ahab said:

No, to your last question.

Good faith or not, people are wrong when they say something that is true is not true, even if the reason they are wrong is because they are not in the right "sphere" which might enable them to see correctly.  God is not dead.

I've had enough of this, for now.

Maybe we can break it down. According to scripture, truth is knowledge. Knowledge is processed in your brain and mind, and transmitted through various means. You can only have and transmit as much knowledge, and quality of knowledge, as your willingness, opportunity, resources, developmental level, mental states, etc. allow.

It is said that God has placed knowledge in the sphere with intelligence, which operate together as fact/information/skill or talent and agency within a larger sphere. The larger sphere is the company of communicating brains and minds under various circumstances. He does that by governing the plan for you to progress from one estate into another. Sometimes there is a veil between spheres and walls between people. Our awareness of whatever is going on in any sphere, and there are spheres of which we are not aware, is a function of our observation, interpretation and experience.

For the devil, light is dark and for God, light is light. Each will see the other as wrong. We can agree with either one when we share the same knowledge as represented or communicated between us, and act and live accordingly. 

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6 hours ago, CV75 said:

Maybe we can break it down. According to scripture, truth is knowledge. Knowledge is processed in your brain and mind, and transmitted through various means. You can only have and transmit as much knowledge, and quality of knowledge, as your willingness, opportunity, resources, developmental level, mental states, etc. allow.

It is said that God has placed knowledge in the sphere with intelligence, which operate together as fact/information/skill or talent and agency within a larger sphere. The larger sphere is the company of communicating brains and minds under various circumstances. He does that by governing the plan for you to progress from one estate into another. Sometimes there is a veil between spheres and walls between people. Our awareness of whatever is going on in any sphere, and there are spheres of which we are not aware, is a function of our observation, interpretation and experience.

For the devil, light is dark and for God, light is light. Each will see the other as wrong. We can agree with either one when we share the same knowledge as represented or communicated between us, and act and live accordingly. 

This quote from Rorty might make it easier.  Oops, no, gosh, no not Rorty... I have to find the source..... hmmmm...  can't find it at the moment.  But this is the most perfect description of pragmatic truth I can find. 

It doesn't say what truth is it just tells you how to find it. It shows how psychological knowledge becomes certainty because it works for you individually, becoming your personal truth

It also describes the scientific method.:

"Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.
            27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.
            28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
            29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
            30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
            31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.
            32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.
            33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.
            34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.
            35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?
            36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.
            37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.
            38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.
            39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.
            
            40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.
            41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.
            42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.
            43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you"

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

This quote from Rorty might make it easier.  Oops, no, gosh, no not Rorty... I have to find the source..... hmmmm...  can't find it at the moment.  But this is the most perfect description of pragmatic truth I can find. 

It doesn't say what truth is it just tells you how to find it. It shows how psychological knowledge becomes certainty because it works for you individually, becoming your personal truth

It also describes the scientific method.:

"Now, as I said concerning faith—that it was not a perfect knowledge—even so it is with my words. Ye cannot know of their surety at first, unto perfection, any more than faith is a perfect knowledge.
            27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.
            28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
            29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
            30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
            31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.
            32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.
            33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.
            34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.
            35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?
            36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.
            37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.
            38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.
            39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.
            
            40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.
            41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.
            42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.
            43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you"

Alma 32 is the go-to for showing how to know something new.

But because so many people in these discussions quote from D&C 93, I feel obligated to address those verses that mention truth. What is interesting to me is that both truth (knowledge) and intelligence are supposed to act for themselves, which tells me that they are not "inanimate things" but attributes of His children (what we are and what we are becoming). God organizes and places us according to our readiness to act and use the materials He avails to us so that we can advance and progress.

In general, it seems that when "truth" is used in the D&C, it has to do with the Word, or the Good News (Gospel), which is the description of what God has in mind for our happiness and His work and glory, which is to know and comprehend Him by becoming like Him, one with Him, etc.

Edited by CV75
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2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Alma 32 is the go-to for showing how to know something new.

But because so many people in these discussions quote from D&C 93, I feel obligated to address those verses that mention truth. What is interesting to me is that both truth (knowledge) and intelligence are supposed to act for themselves, which tells me that they are not "inanimate things" but attributes of His children (what we are and what we are becoming). God organizes and places us according to our readiness to act and use the materials He avails to us so that we can advance and progress.

In general, it seems that when "truth" is used in the D&C, it has to do with the Word, or the Good News (Gospel), which is the description of what God has in mind for our happiness and His work and glory, which is to know and comprehend Him by becoming like Him, one with Him, etc.

Great point- hadn't noticed that.

It seems then to be used in the context of sentence content, as expected.

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9 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Great point- hadn't noticed that.

It seems then to be used in the context of sentence content, as expected.

So, getting back to the atheist -- I seem to recall you were successfully able to present the Gospel to one or more by helping them change their view on "truth.". Can you summarize that conversation if it isn't too much trouble? Thank you, either way!

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9 hours ago, CV75 said:

So, getting back to the atheist -- I seem to recall you were successfully able to present the Gospel to one or more by helping them change their view on "truth.". Can you summarize that conversation if it isn't too much trouble? Thank you, either way!

 I am not sure that I should share everything publicly on the board so I will PM you.

 But as for a generic answer typically the problem is that they believe science is true in all phases of human experience.

 They have never thought in terms of the meaning of life or for a personally the meaning of their own lives as been deliberately avoided by science.

 They also have been misled into thinking that what we see is all that there is. And that while we see is reality.

Yet firstly every experience we have as humans is colored by Subjective nuances that science totally ignores.

 The Choice to go "into science" in the 1st place is a prime example.  It is most often the case that they choose all the paths in their lives and everything important in their lives is based not on scientific evidence but our feelings in the heart.

 And yet they have been brainwashed into thinking that the only reality there is as scientific reality. There are leaving out 90% of the human experience deliberately.

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31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

 I am not sure that I should share everything publicly on the board so I will PM you.

 But as for a generic answer typically the problem is that they believe science is true in all phases of human experience.

 They have never thought in terms of the meaning of life or for a personally the meaning of their own lives as been deliberately avoided by science.

 They also have been misled into thinking that what we see is all that there is. And that while we see is reality.

Yet firstly every experience we have as humans is colored by Subjective nuances that science totally ignores.

 The Choice to go "into science" in the 1st place is a prime example.  It is most often the case that they choose all the paths in their lives and everything important in their lives is based not on scientific evidence but our feelings in the heart.

 And yet they have been brainwashed into thinking that the only reality there is as scientific reality. There are leaving out 90% of the human experience deliberately.

That's good enough, no need to go into details.

Avoiding meaning of one's life, one way or another, is a big problem and as you point out, can only be subjectively motivated.

The types of reality are extremely important to recognize and I can see how the philosophical approach you use can be viewed as an objective analysis and help.

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7 hours ago, CV75 said:

That's good enough, no need to go into details.

Avoiding meaning of one's life, one way or another, is a big problem and as you point out, can only be subjectively motivated.

The types of reality are extremely important to recognize and I can see how the philosophical approach you use can be viewed as an objective analysis and help.

Check your mail

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On 2/20/2021 at 7:13 AM, CV75 said:

Maybe we can break it down. According to scripture, truth is knowledge. Knowledge is processed in your brain and mind, and transmitted through various means.

Closer but still not how it works, in my perspective.  Would be nice if we could transmit our knowledge to others that easily though.  Here is how I see it break down:  Yes, truth is knowledge (of something that is/exists or was/existed or will be/exist) and we must see/experience it/truth directly/personally, otherwise at best we are only hearing about it/truth from what some other person/witness says about it through some means of communication.  And I say at best because what someone says isn't necessarily true or the truth, so it doesn't necessarily help us to just accept what someone else says as if what they are saying is a representation of truth/knowledge of something that is/exists or was/existed or will be/exist.

On 2/20/2021 at 7:13 AM, CV75 said:

You can only have and transmit as much knowledge, and quality of knowledge, as your willingness, opportunity, resources, developmental level, mental states, etc. allow.

Even if you really wanted to and said everything correctly, using the best words you could think of, you still wouldn't necessarily be able to transmit your knowledge to someone else.  To anyone who heard you it would simply be you talking or writing to share your ideas which may or may not be true, and anyone who heard you would be justified in seeking to verify what you were saying before accepting what you said as the truth.  The truth/knowledge you possess and attempt/attempted to communicate to someone else would appear to them as "you are saying/said whatever you are saying/said and maybe it's true or maybe it's not so how am I supposed to know whether or not what you are saying/said is true."  OR, maybe, if the person who you were talking to was very gullible, they might just accept what you said as a representation of truth and claim to know that and think of that as the truth.

On 2/20/2021 at 7:13 AM, CV75 said:

It is said that God has placed knowledge in the sphere with intelligence, which operate together as fact/information/skill or talent and agency within a larger sphere. The larger sphere is the company of communicating brains and minds under various circumstances. He does that by governing the plan for you to progress from one estate into another. Sometimes there is a veil between spheres and walls between people. Our awareness of whatever is going on in any sphere, and there are spheres of which we are not aware, is a function of our observation, interpretation and experience.

For the devil, light is dark and for God, light is light. Each will see the other as wrong. We can agree with either one when we share the same knowledge as represented or communicated between us, and act and live accordingly. 

Yada yada.  Whatever.

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28 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yada yada.  Whatever.

Great line.

I'm going to have to use it. 

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Closer but still not how it works, in my perspective.  Would be nice if we could transmit our knowledge to others that easily though.  Here is how I see it break down:  Yes, truth is knowledge (of something that is/exists or was/existed or will be/exist) and we must see/experience it/truth directly/personally, otherwise at best we are only hearing about it/truth from what some other person/witness says about it through some means of communication.  And I say at best because what someone says isn't necessarily true or the truth, so it doesn't necessarily help us to just accept what someone else says as if what they are saying is a representation of truth/knowledge of something that is/exists or was/existed or will be/exist.

Even if you really wanted to and said everything correctly, using the best words you could think of, you still wouldn't necessarily be able to transmit your knowledge to someone else.  To anyone who heard you it would simply be you talking or writing to share your ideas which may or may not be true, and anyone who heard you would be justified in seeking to verify what you were saying before accepting what you said as the truth.  The truth/knowledge you possess and attempt/attempted to communicate to someone else would appear to them as "you are saying/said whatever you are saying/said and maybe it's true or maybe it's not so how am I supposed to know whether or not what you are saying/said is true."  OR, maybe, if the person who you were talking to was very gullible, they might just accept what you said as a representation of truth and claim to know that and think of that as the truth.

Yada yada.  Whatever.

To listen, understand and even relate does not mean to believe and accept. We only believe and accept by following the method set forth in Alma 32, which interestingly enough applies to any sphere of knowledge, for the purposes of this discussion, typically characterized as scientific or spiritual. If you choose to operate in the devil’s sphere, you get that kind of knowledge and if you choose to operate in God’s sphere you get that kind of knowledge. Call it truth if you wish, but it isn’t necessary. It is God’s knowledge (or to refer to D&C 19, “Endless” knowledge, punishment, etc.).

“Technically,” when we transmit spiritual knowledge through books, petroglyph, sound waves or chuck-ups and chest-beats by the power of the Holy Ghost, the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men. Then they must choose to receive it.

I take “Yada yada” to be a di-syllabic throat-clearing sound that conveys you don’t understand and would rather not try to!

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27 minutes ago, CV75 said:

To listen, understand and even relate does not mean to believe and accept.

Right, just as it does not mean knowing what someone else is talking about.  Or knowing whether or not what someone else is saying is true.

Quote

We only believe and accept by following the method set forth in Alma 32, which interestingly enough applies to any sphere of knowledge, for the purposes of this discussion, typically characterized as scientific or spiritual. If you choose to operate in the devil’s sphere, you get that kind of knowledge and if you choose to operate in God’s sphere you get that kind of knowledge. Call it truth if you wish, but it isn’t necessary. It is God’s knowledge (or to refer to D&C 19, “Endless” knowledge, punishment, etc.).

Knowledge of things that are not doesn't do anyone any good other than knowing what is not true. 

There is truth (or what is) and on the opposite side of the sphere... or on some other sphere if you want to look at it that way... there is what is not.  Truth vs what is not the truth, when in the present sphere.  And there is also the past and the future.

We don't ever transmit spiritual knowledge.  I said that in my previous post.  We communicate with words and then expect others to understand our words, and sometimes it works, but sometimes it doesn't.

Other people must see/experience for themselves what we know before they can know the same things for themselves, and words alone can not convey knowledge from one person to another.

Quote

I take “Yada yada” to be a di-syllabic throat-clearing sound that conveys you don’t understand and would rather not try to!

No, more like I know what I am talking about and it looks to me like you apparently don't and I am tired of seeing that you apparently don't understand me while you talk about whatever.

Edited by Ahab
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29 minutes ago, CV75 said:

To listen, understand and even relate does not mean to believe and accept. We only believe and accept by following the method set forth in Alma 32, which interestingly enough applies to any sphere of knowledge, for the purposes of this discussion, typically characterized as scientific or spiritual. If you choose to operate in the devil’s sphere, you get that kind of knowledge and if you choose to operate in God’s sphere you get that kind of knowledge. Call it truth if you wish, but it isn’t necessary. It is God’s knowledge (or to refer to D&C 19, “Endless” knowledge, punishment, etc.).

“Technically,” when we transmit spiritual knowledge through books, petroglyph, sound waves or chuck-ups and chest-beats by the power of the Holy Ghost, the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men. Then they must choose to receive it.

I take “Yada yada” to be a di-syllabic throat-clearing sound that conveys you don’t understand and would rather not try to!

 I think we need to see these different perspectives as just that- paradigms.

 Take them or leave them. With that perspective antievolutionist can get along perfectly with a post modern.

 If you don't care about being peaceful with science you can believe anything you want about how or when the Earth was created.

 And in this church that is what we need.

 You have your perspective on the gospel and I have mine but we're all believers in the plan of salvation and the gospel of Jesus  Christ.

  And I also suggest that everyone look up the Hebrew word pronounced "yada", and what it meant in ancient times In a biblical context ;)

 In my book,  That also  Fits perfectly in our context here. :)

https://torahresource.com/hebrew-word-yada/

 It fits well with this kind of subjective knowledge that we have been discussing. It is a relational use of the word k Knowledge depending on about whom one is speaking

Edited by mfbukowski
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34 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Right, just as it does not mean knowing what someone else is talking about.  Or knowing whether or not what someone else is saying is true.

Knowledge of things that are not doesn't do anyone any good other than knowing what is not true. 

There is truth (or what is) and on the opposite side of the sphere... or on some other sphere if you want to look at it that way... there is what is not.  Truth vs what is not the truth, when in the present sphere.  And there is also the past and the future.

We don't ever transmit spiritual knowledge.  I said that in my previous post.  We communicate with words and then expect others to understand our words, and sometimes it works, but sometimes it doesn't.

Other people must see/experience for themselves what we know before they can know the same things for themselves, and words alone can not convey knowledge from one person to another.

No, more like I know what I am talking about and it looks to me like you apparently don't and I am tired of seeing that you apparently don't understand me while you talk about whatever.

image.png.c00af5bd7e067811cf902804b918498e.png

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On 2/8/2021 at 6:20 PM, JLHPROF said:

Death and the removal of the physical presence of the Father.

Plus all those fun little curses about work, childbirth, etc.

How is childbirth a curse?

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On 2/10/2021 at 4:56 PM, mfbukowski said:

I would never blame this mess on God OR Adam and Eve, but for me it is simply The Plan which I think exists on all worlds and always has.

Isn't the blame ultimately on the devil and Adam and Eve according to 
Mosiah 16:3?

"For they are carnal and devilish, and the devil has power over them; 
yea, even that old serpent that did beguile our first parents, which 
was the cause of their fall; which was the cause of all mankind 
becoming carnal, sensual, devilish, knowing evil from good, subjecting 
themselves to the devil
".

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41 minutes ago, telnetd said:

How is childbirth a curse?

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

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On 2/22/2021 at 1:47 PM, CV75 said:

image.png.c00af5bd7e067811cf902804b918498e.png

I think you misspelled that.

It should be "OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOkay".

Try to do better in the future. ;)

 

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