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The Doctrine and Covenants and American Exceptionalism


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6 hours ago, teddyaware said:

“When the day comes in which the Kingdom of God will bear rule, the flag of the United States will proudly flutter unsullied on the flag staff of liberty and equal rights, without a spot to sully its fair surface; the glorious flag our fathers have bequeathed to us will then be unfurled to the breeze by those who have power to hoist it aloft and defend its sanctity.” (Brigham Young)

 

I understand why quotes like this get many Americans pumped up, but the response you'd get from most non-Americans would be something like: "we already have a flag, and a nation, and our own representative government. We're not interested in your theocracy, thank you very much." 

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33 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

 

I understand why quotes like this get many Americans pumped up, but the response you'd get from most non-Americans would be something like: "we already have a flag, and a nation, and our own representative government. We're not interested in your theocracy, thank you very much." 

But if the New Jerusalem is to be located within the confines of present-day United States, and if the nation has not been overthrown by then, doesn’t it stand to reason it would be the U.S. flag flying then?  There are to be two great world capitals then, the Old and the New Jerusalem. Wouldn’t bother me if the flag of the nation of Israel were flying over Old Jerusalem then, or, for that matter, if flags were flying for other nations of the earth, if they are still existing. 
 

And if we accept Christ will have returned to reign personally on the earth, wouldn’t that, by definition, be a theocracy? 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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1 hour ago, JustAnAustralian said:

So now it's the constitutional system and not the constitution itself?

You must surely know that in Doctrine and Covenants constitution and constitutional are used interchangeably? If not, be advised.

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49 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

 

I understand why quotes like this get many Americans pumped up, but the response you'd get from most non-Americans would be something like: "we already have a flag, and a nation, and our own representative government. We're not interested in your theocracy, thank you very much." 

When that blessed day comes when Zion is established and the kingdom of God is spread abroad on the earth, the Capitol of the millennial world government will be the New Jerusalem located in the American promised land, and those worthy to live in the flesh in that blessed day will thank the Lord, with tears of gratitude, that the constitutional system that once governed only the United States will govern every nation on earth. Will you have a problem with this?

Edited by teddyaware
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22 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But if the New Jerusalem is to be located within the confines of present-day United States, and if the nation has not been overthrown by then, doesn’t it stand to reason it would be the U.S. flag flying then?  There are to be two great world capitals then, the Old and the New Jerusalem. Wouldn’t bother me if the flag of the nation of Israel were flying over Old Jerusalem then, or, for that matter, if flags were flying for other nations of the earth, if they are still existing. 

Like Cleon Skousen has said, at that point America won't be America. It will be only a chapter in the history of the Kingdom of God. This is another reason I believe American Exceptionalism is a useless concept.

24 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And if we accept Christ will have returned to reign personally on the earth, wouldn’t that, by definition, be a theocracy? 

 I suppose it would be. But if America becomes a theocracy, I suppose the Constitution will require a complete rewrite. This is another reason I believe American Exceptionalism is a useless concept.

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11 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

When that blessed day comes when Zion is established and the kingdom of God is spread abroad on the earth, the Capitol of the millennial world government will be the New Jerusalem located in the American promised land, and those worthy to live in the flesh in that blessed day will thank the Lord, with tears of gratitude, that the constitutional system that once governed only the United States will govern every nation on earth. Will you have a problem with this?

I won't have a problem with that. But like I mentioned above, the Constitution would have to be adjusted quite a lot so that Christ can reign personally over every nation on Earth.

Edited by Rajah Manchou
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14 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I suppose it would be. But if America becomes a theocracy, I suppose the Constitution will require a complete rewrite. This is another reason I believe American Exceptionalism is a useless concept.

The Lord has explicitly stated that this land is a choice land above ALL other lands.  This is reiterated many times throughout scriptures and by many prophets from the beginning of the Restoration. The D&C declares the Constitution to be a Heavenly Banner.  This continent AND more specifically the USA had/has a divine destiny.  Many (if not all the) prophets from the time of Adam and all through the ages have known this.

Quote

I won't have a problem with that. But like I mentioned above, the Constitution would have to be adjusted quite a lot so that Christ can reign personally over every nation on Earth.

The Constitution is not perfect but it has fulfilled God's Purpose.  It has blessed the entire world.  When Jesus reigns on the earth, He will do so by His Priesthood.  And NOT within the framework of the Constitution.  Remember what Isaiah said:  "the Law shall go forth" meaning Constitutional principles during the Dispensation of Fullness of Times and then by Jesus' Perfect Government during the Millennium.

Edited by longview
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17 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

When that blessed day comes when Zion is established and the kingdom of God is spread abroad on the earth, the Capitol of the millennial world government will be the New Jerusalem located in the American promised land, and those worthy to live in the flesh in that blessed day will thank the Lord, with tears of gratitude, that the constitutional system that once governed only the United States will govern every nation on earth. Will you have a problem with this?

Where do you get the idea that the same constitution that once only governed the United States will govern every nation on earth?  I'm trying to understand how your belief fits with the following:

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." (Rev 11:15)

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15 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Constitution would have to be adjusted quite a lot so that Christ can reign personally over every nation on Earth.

And to be “unsullied”, “without a spot”...when Christ comes thankfully nations will be purified as people are.  The US needs it as much as any other IMO (massacres of its own people, slavery and oppression, mistreatment of mentally ill, inequalities based not on choice, but birth when all are to be alike before God, etc) and quite a bit of its sins were perpetuated in the original Constitution.

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I take the "Blessings of Liberty" from the Preamble to be these various enumerated rights (stemming from the inalienable rights mentioned in the Declaration of Independence), with attendant responsibility (liberty being freedom that is limited by the rights of others). We have the right and responsibility to secure these blessings for posterity as well as ourselves. For me this is very much in the spirit of Elijah, at least half of it!

Legislative intent is always important in defining any legislated document, but the Declaration of Independence has no legal standing or interpretive power.  Even so we are not limited to enumerated rights, since the 9th Amendment says they do not need to be enumerated to be retained by the people.  That might be where history and the Preamble come in.  What sort of rights might those be?

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20 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." (Rev 11:15)

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever the term of four years, no more than twice"

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5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

but the Declaration of Independence has no legal standing or interpretive power.

Not so.  It was statement of divorce from the oppressive acts of Parliament.  That had legal FORCE!  Samuel Adams, the Father of the American Revolution, knew that King George III and Parliament were acting with great hostility against the colonies.  He worked diligently in persuading the colonies to form up committees and prepare a continental Congress for the purpose of organizing resistance against brutal thuggish acts of British soldiers.

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55 minutes ago, longview said:

The Lord has explicitly stated that this land is a choice land above ALL other lands.  This is reiterated many times throughout scriptures and by many prophets from the beginning of the Restoration. The D&C declares the Constitution to be a Heavenly Banner.  This continent AND more specifically the USA had/has a divine destiny.  Many (if not all the) prophets from the time of Adam and all through the ages have known this.

The Constitution is not perfect but it has fulfilled God's Purpose.  It has blessed the entire world.  When Jesus reigns on the earth, He will do so by His Priesthood.  And NOT within the framework of the Constitution.  Remember what Isaiah said:  "the Law shall go forth" meaning Constitutional principles during the Dispensation of Fullness of Times and then by Jesus' Perfect Government during the Millennium.

you would believe the line "choice above all other lands" if you are a heartlander. are you a heartlander? How do you know the "choice above all other lands" isn't talking about southern Mexico or Peru or the interior or Brazil?

 

Could "the law shall go forth" not mean a literal law but "laws and ordinances of the gospel"? AOF 3

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7 minutes ago, Duncan said:

you would believe the line "choice above all other lands" if you are a heartlander. are you a heartlander? How do you know the "choice above all other lands" isn't talking about southern Mexico or Peru or the interior or Brazil?

No, I am not a heartlander.  I have already stated:  "This continent AND more specifically the USA had/has a divine destiny."

9 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Could "the law shall go forth" not mean a literal law but "laws and ordinances of the gospel"? AOF 3

BOTH.  Constitutional Principles AND the Gospel must be propagated throughout the world.  Both are God's Loving Gift to the world.

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The US constitution is great for America but has no value to anybody else. Each country has its own rules that work just fine without having to turn to america.  I accept that the constitution is inspired, but that does not make it perfect, does not make it scripture, and does not make it of use to the rest of the world. The gospel flourishes around the world just fine in countries that have very different constitutions. Some of the pro america silliness is profoundly offensive to non-americans. Quoting scriptures out of context just makes the claims all the more offensive. the gospel did just fine among the Nephites and  many other cultures around the world through time. 

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49 minutes ago, Freedom said:

The US constitution is great for America but has no value to anybody else. Each country has its own rules that work just fine without having to turn to america.  I accept that the constitution is inspired, but that does not make it perfect, does not make it scripture, and does not make it of use to the rest of the world. The gospel flourishes around the world just fine in countries that have very different constitutions. Some of the pro america silliness is profoundly offensive to non-americans. Quoting scriptures out of context just makes the claims all the more offensive. the gospel did just fine among the Nephites and  many other cultures around the world through time. 

Our great and beloved President Reagan said it truly:  "America is a shining city on a hill."  Abraham Lincoln wisely pronounced about America:   'In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free - honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth."

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3 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Like Cleon Skousen has said, at that point America won't be America. It will be only a chapter in the history of the Kingdom of God. This is another reason I believe American Exceptionalism is a useless concept.

 I suppose it would be. But if America becomes a theocracy, I suppose the Constitution will require a complete rewrite. This is another reason I believe American Exceptionalism is a useless concept.

I don’t think Cleon Skousen or anybody else really knows what the world will look like in that day. 

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5 hours ago, longview said:

The Lord has explicitly stated that this land is a choice land above ALL other lands.  This is reiterated many times throughout scriptures and by many prophets from the beginning of the Restoration. The D&C declares the Constitution to be a Heavenly Banner.  This continent AND more specifically the USA had/has a divine destiny.  Many (if not all the) prophets from the time of Adam and all through the ages have known this.

Then where are the proponents of Mexican, Honduran, Ecuadorian, Venezuelan, Brazilian, and Chilean exceptionalism? Sure that would also be scriptural.

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7 hours ago, Freedom said:

Each country has its own rules that work fine....

I think that may be going too far, but switching to an American style constitution wouldn’t necessarily be the best for those countries either.

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10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But if the New Jerusalem is to be located within the confines of present-day United States, and if the nation has not been overthrown by then, doesn’t it stand to reason it would be the U.S. flag flying then?  There are to be two great world capitals then, the Old and the New Jerusalem. Wouldn’t bother me if the flag of the nation of Israel were flying over Old Jerusalem then, or, for that matter, if flags were flying for other nations of the earth, if they are still existing. 
 

And if we accept Christ will have returned to reign personally on the earth, wouldn’t that, by definition, be a theocracy? 

Why would a world Capitol have a flag that represents thirteen original colonies and however many stars it has at that point representing states and use that to represent every person on Earth? Do you just add a lot more stars? Wouldn’t the Kingdom of God on the Earth have its own flag? Come to think of it why would it need a flag at all? You don’t need the flag to identify the nationality of ships anymore and that is the main practical purpose flags serve now. There were others but they are not really that important in a world that has one nation actually under God with actual liberty and actual justice for all.

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9 hours ago, longview said:

No, I am not a heartlander.  I have already stated:  "This continent AND more specifically the USA had/has a divine destiny."

BOTH.  Constitutional Principles AND the Gospel must be propagated throughout the world.  Both are God's Loving Gift to the world.

This in getting close to idolatry.

9 hours ago, longview said:

Not so.  It was statement of divorce from the oppressive acts of Parliament.  That had legal FORCE!  Samuel Adams, the Father of the American Revolution, knew that King George III and Parliament were acting with great hostility against the colonies.  He worked diligently in persuading the colonies to form up committees and prepare a continental Congress for the purpose of organizing resistance against brutal thuggish acts of British soldiers.

It had legal force because the colonists (with French assistance) won the war and not because of some inherent power in signing a document. History is littered with declarations, manifestos, and denunciations written by people whose cause, just or unjust, failed and they are largely forgotten.

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59 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think that may be going too far, but switching to an American style constitution wouldn’t necessarily be the best for those countries either.

Most political experts who advise nations trying to build a new democracy out of a dictatorship, tribal society, or whatever do not recommend the American strong president system. Too often those that try it fail when the President becomes the government. The US was, in software terms, the beta build of democracy. It needed a lot of bug patches and it still has a lot of inherent dangers in its flawed design but it led the way to a lot of other democracies that built on the constitution. In that sense the constitution was the guide. It is not because it is the perfect form of government.

Brigham Young hailed the US Constitution and the structures it is governed but there are few people in history more aware of its flaws what with the constant mob attacks and the exile to the wilderness and then the US Army coming out to play.

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