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Reducing Extremism


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41 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

What could you see may curb the direction of extremism in our faith communities? 

A week, particularly this coming week, passing by with nobody doing anything stupid.

Got my fingers crossed.

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I don’t have any ready or definitive answers, but I’m not inclined to hear from those who, four years ago at this time, were excusing anti-Trumpist extremism.

It was at about that time that the term Trump Derangement Syndrome was coined.  

Anybody remember the woman who resigned from the Tabernacle Choir in protest of their performing at the inaugural?

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20 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t have any ready or definitive answers, but I’m not inclined to hear from those who, four years ago at this time, were excusing anti-Trumpist extremism.

It was at about that time that the term Trump Derangement Syndrome was coined.  

Anybody remember the woman who resigned from the Tabernacle Choir in protest of their performing at the inaugural?

Why? Are you saying the woman who resigned from the tabernacle was not making a sincere, principled, evidence-based decision?

Furthermore, can you define what is extremist about opposing Trump in 2016 until now? Are you saying there was no principled, sincere, or evidence-based position one could take in opposition to him? Are you saying that American citizens are supposed to assent to their leaders and specifically to the POTUS? 

For me, my opposition to him in 2016 led me to leave that political party; it was not a partisan decision. In fact, it was based on every fundamental value I had politically and spiritually that I opposed him then. Of course, I was not alone then, scores of political and religious leaders on the right objected to him vehemently and not for political reasons but for well-articulated reasons based on his self-evident violation of standards of decency and morality.

Consider for a moment the evil that has happened since we inserted such a person into the office of POTUS against the backdrop of an already polarized national binary. It was an incredibly poor decision, horribly damaging and to be absolutely clear, Donald Trump has not changed significantly since 2016. All the negatives that he has contributed are merely those indecent, immoral traits Lindsey Graham, Mitch McConnel, Ted Cruz, etc... railed against, just made more manifest through his position of power.

He has certainly worsened extremism in the US, we can say so objectively. 

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9 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I had an aha moment a little while back that change my position with the end of times. I realized that most of the verses that focus on it also focus on our part in continuing to create a zion society...insomuch that what binds Satan is our attitudes and focus have turned toward a peaceful society emblematic of how God would want us to treat others. 
I do think there’s this focus on either storage supplies that goes wayyyyy over board where people just jump right into doomsday prepping as well as a fatalistic attitude towards events and problems around us as “signs of the times” and there’s little understanding as to how the end of days is also the time of the ongoing restoration and refinement of the Saints for the better. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

I love that. The concept of the kingdom being here and now deeply resonates with me still.

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Maybe part of reducing extrremism is being as clear and evidentiary as humanly possible to demonstrate the facts.  I don't think the facts and evidence will occur in a vacuum, but they're still essential and will matter. It's not just about the facts themselves, but the respect for them, regardless of implication. When people model a respect for this common thing accessible to everyone, it offers a path for them, too. So we have to work extremely hard to be loyal to facts and evidence and be accountable to them. That's a form of public-level love. That, to me is at the core of that invisible line between the Church and State. Having the core common values and facts that are accessible to all makes it possible to live in a pluralistic society.

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5 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

Again, please mind the political stuff as much as possible. I seriously don’t want this to become political. 

I'm sorry if I crossed the line. It's difficult to talk about the current extremism without talking about Trump, dare I say impossible? My subsequent post after responding to Scott is me distilling my major thoughts relating to him without talking about him specifically, but still being aware overall of his role in accelerating a major contributing factor in the current crisis of American extremism: misinformation.

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25 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Why? Are you saying the woman who resigned from the tabernacle was not making a sincere, principled, evidence-based decision?

Furthermore, can you define what is extremist about opposing Trump in 2016 until now? Are you saying there was no principled, sincere, or evidence-based position one could take in opposition to him? Are you saying that American citizens are supposed to assent to their leaders and specifically to the POTUS? 

For me, my opposition to him in 2016 led me to leave that political party; it was not a partisan decision. In fact, it was based on every fundamental value I had politically and spiritually that I opposed him then. Of course, I was not alone then, scores of political and religious leaders on the right objected to him vehemently and not for political reasons but for well-articulated reasons based on his self-evident violation of standards of decency and morality.

Consider for a moment the evil that has happened since we inserted such a person into the office of POTUS against the backdrop of an already polarized national binary. It was an incredibly poor decision, horribly damaging and to be absolutely clear, Donald Trump has not changed significantly since 2016. All the negatives that he has contributed are merely those indecent, immoral traits Lindsey Graham, Mitch McConnel, Ted Cruz, etc... railed against, just made more manifest through his position of power.

He has certainly worsened extremism in the US, we can say so objectively. 

Heh. What is extremism to one person is “a sincere, principled, evidence-based position” to another. And so we get that iconic image of the woman screaming at the sky because she’s pissed off that Trump got elected. I’m sure she thought she was being sincere and principled.

And so it goes. 
 

Im just saying I’m not disposed to be lectured to about moderation and unity from those who would have none of such things four years ago. 

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2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

These are a few I’ve been mulling...but I’m interested what you guys think. What could you see may curb the direction of extremism in our faith communities? 

The USA probably has a version of this: https://www.un.org/sites/www.un.org.counterterrorism/files/plan_action.pdf

ETA: and it does: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/empowering_local_partners.pdf

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7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Heh. What is extremism to one person is “a sincere, principled, evidence-based position” to another. And so we get that iconic image of the woman screaming at the sky because she’s pissed off that Trump got elected. I’m sure she thought she was being sincere and principled.

And so it goes. 
 

Im just saying I’m not disposed to be lectured to about moderation and unity from those who would have none of such things four years ago. 

No, it's not. Extremism does not tend to be evidence-based. Extremism tends to be myopic in principle and also identity, not making space for other identities.

I'm saying that no one blames hens for raising a ruckus when the fox gets in the henhouse. Why should people treat an objectively horrible decision like business as usual?

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2 hours ago, juliann said:

I think reducing the "last days" nonsense we hear so much about would be a good start. That is all about being part of a privileged group, which you prove by surviving. There is always an undercurrent of satisfaction that the "bad guys" will not only be annihilated but it be accomplished in ugly ways. As long as I have lived, the last days were imminent. I don't know how many more centuries of that false belief have to occur before we get down to business and realize we are supposed to live with humankind. As long as we think we have to assign everyone into good and evil categories in order to measure ourselves "worthy," I think we will continue to seek out groups/beliefs where we feel we are better and more enlightened than others. Extremists on the right are easier to identify but it is happening on all ideological fronts, not just religious ones. 

"Like"!!

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23 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I'm sorry if I crossed the line. It's difficult to talk about the current extremism without talking about Trump, dare I say impossible? My subsequent post after responding to Scott is me distilling my major thoughts relating to him without talking about him specifically, but still being aware overall of his role in accelerating a major contributing factor in the current crisis of American extremism: misinformation.

It's okay. It's easier said than done. I Know part of this, particularly when we go outside of just the local church community needs to include discussions on politics, larger social dynamics, etc. But I think starting local, within our communities of direct influence (wards, friends, and family), is probably a good place to start since when people start to go down that rabbit hole it's those closest to them that will have the best chance of pulling them back out....and though it's a small slither of the overall problems with extremism, I still think it's an important start. 

And trust me, doing this within board rules entails biting my tongue a lot. I'm eyeball deep into politics on a normal-ish day

 

with luv, 

BD

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4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

No, it's not. Extremism does not tend to be evidence-based. Extremism tends to be myopic in principle and also identity, not making space for other identities.

I'm saying that no one blames hens for raising a ruckus when the fox gets in the henhouse. Why should people treat an objectively horrible decision like business as usual?

Maybe it’s because those who keep saying it’s a horrible decision can never articulate a solid reason for saying so. 
 

But I’m done here now. I won’t do what others have done to me: Get a thread shut down by violating the no-politics rule. 

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1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

Again, please mind the political stuff as much as possible. I seriously don’t want this to become political. 
 

I find it problematic to write off people we disagree with. Frankly to me that goes strongly against what Oaks mentioned. Labeling people with pejorative descriptions such as “derangement” also doesn’t do much but maintain our sense of self-righteous divisions. And I say that knowing that I’ve had that tendency as well. It is far easier to write off people as stupid, insane, backwards, etc than it is to engage and work to understand their views and where they’re coming from. 
I know i have a ton of disdain for Trump. I’ve had it from around the time he came off the Elevator and if I’d known more about him prior I would have had disdain for him prior. Really I would say that disdain is an extreme understatement. But that disdain if I’m not careful can bleed into writing off around 46.9% of the US population because they didn’t see things my way....even more of my local community. To me there are greater sins than who I vote for. And refusing to hear out people I don’t agree with seems antithetical to developing healthier communities. 
 

with luv, 

BD 
 

 

Hi BlueDreams, nice to talk to you. So I'm a very conservative/ libertarian kinda guy. And on January 20th I will be 100% behind Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. It's my duty as an American to wipe the slate clean and support them in trying to unite the country and keep us moving forward. I did the same with trump and Obama. I never had disdain for any of them though, personally, I think thats what went wrong the past 4 years. He never even had a chance to be presidential, atleast that's the way I see it. For moving forward and reducing extremism, I think we need to learn how to be positive again,  much of our daily life has become almost overwhelmingly negative. It's got to be a GRASSROOTS EFFORT, the media, liberal or conservative, make alot of money by keeping us confused so we feel like we're reliant on them for answers to lifes difficult questions.  Personally, I've turned them off. They all suck.

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23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Heh. What is extremism to one person is “a sincere, principled, evidence-based position” to another. And so we get that iconic image of the woman screaming at the sky because she’s pissed off that Trump got elected. I’m sure she thought she was being sincere and principled.

And so it goes. 
 

Im just saying I’m not disposed to be lectured to about moderation and unity from those who would have none of such things four years ago. 

Who exactly is lecturing here? 

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38 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

No, it's not. Extremism does not tend to be evidence-based. Extremism tends to be myopic in principle and also identity, not making space for other identities.

I'm saying that no one blames hens for raising a ruckus when the fox gets in the henhouse. Why should people treat an objectively horrible decision like business as usual?

Yep, akin to the extremist Muslim and now, Christian. :( And last but not least, the white supremacist. Or not last but not least those like Ammon Bundy who is probably more in line with most extremists at the moment. Here's a podcast on Radiowest that discusses him. https://radiowest.kuer.org/post/how-ammon-bundy-influenced-far-right-extremism

BTW, recently I went to a baby shower and the baby's mom is the daughter of my former neighbor from years ago. Her mother, my friend, protested at the Salt Lake capital on January 6th. And no one at the shower had masks, there were several people at the house. :( And the baby's father has been reading some book put out, this is what the sister-in-law told me, we discussed what was happening around us. I wish I knew what the book was, I believe it was from an LDS person. Anyway, he is thinking it's the last days and preparing for it or something. They think the new president is going to bring in the last days, I'm thinking. 

Does anyone have an idea what the book is called? I wonder if it's, "The 5000 Year Leap" by Cleon Skousen. My husband's boss loaned it to him a couple of years ago. And I think Glenn Beck promotes it's ideas. 

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1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t have any ready or definitive answers, but I’m not inclined to hear from those who, four years ago at this time, were excusing anti-Trumpist extremism.

It was at about that time that the term Trump Derangement Syndrome was coined.  

Anybody remember the woman who resigned from the Tabernacle Choir in protest of their performing at the inaugural?

as it turned out though she wasn't the only one who quit wanting to have anything to do with Trump. Besides of which there was that Porter, who worked for him. It was found he was beating his wife and that whole scandal and the Bishop told the wife to think about his career (all the while he's still beating you)

 

I am sure she is fine

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2 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

Seeking other opinions or perspectives in the church that do not line entirely with one’s own. Avoiding rigid or absolutist stances. I’m extremely opinionated and that veers both into politics and religion. And with that I think there’s a temptation to imagine a world rewritten in our brand of ideals. But I’m trying to move past viewing my way as the best way for a country of 300+ million. I’ve been thinking a lot about Oak’s talk...particularly on getting to know perceived enemies. Often politically we’ve gotten to a point of treating and assuming the “other” side as the true enemy of our country, values, religion, etc. which 99 times out of 100 I don’t think that is the case.

I agree; the more people are brought into the fold, the more exposed and ineffective the violent outliers will become. Of course there will be subdivisions within the larger fold along the lines of moral differences, but there will be sufficient respect of agency / human rights to prevent intra- and inter-fold violence.

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