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Man Dressed as Captain Moroni at Capitol: His Testimony and My Disclaimer UPDATED


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On 1/17/2021 at 1:49 PM, The Nehor said:

Dressing up as Captain Moroni? The same Captain Moroni who saw an election involving dissidents who wanted to overthrow the government and put a king in place. After the king-men lost the election they rallied and took up arms to overthrow the election and Moroni violently put them down as head of the military and compelled them to stop denying the liberty of the people. Irony is dead.

You got it backwards.  Amlicites and king-men were people who wanted to install a tyrannical government with elitist and privileged judges exercising great power over the people (read MASSIVE government, similar to the priests of King Noah).  Captain Moroni wanted true liberty and retain LIMITED government.  If Amlicites and king-men could have subverted the voting process, they would have eagerly done it.

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4 hours ago, longview said:

You got it backwards.  Amlicites and king-men were people who wanted to install a tyrannical government with elitist and privileged judges exercising great power over the people (read MASSIVE government, similar to the priests of King Noah).  Captain Moroni wanted true liberty and retain LIMITED government.  If Amlicites and king-men could have subverted the voting process, they would have eagerly done it.

I was talking about the king-men and I described what happened. What you just wrote is made-up unscriptural fan fiction, much like what that idiot was spewing at the Capitol.

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9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I was talking about the king-men and I described what happened. What you just wrote is made-up unscriptural fan fiction, much like what that idiot was spewing at the Capitol.

Are you denying what Captain Moroni wrote on his Title of Liberty?  Alma 46:12. And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.

It is indisputable that the king-men wanted more massive government.  Just like King Noah and his wicked priests (they built many luxurious mansions and enslaved many people to do their bidding.  On the other hand, freemen (allies of Captain Moroni) wanted none of that.  How is that fiction?

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6 hours ago, longview said:

Are you denying what Captain Moroni wrote on his Title of Liberty?  Alma 46:12. And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.

?????

6 hours ago, longview said:

It is indisputable that the king-men wanted more massive government.  Just like King Noah and his wicked priests (they built many luxurious mansions and enslaved many people to do their bidding.  On the other hand, freemen (allies of Captain Moroni) wanted none of that.  How is that fiction?

You would think Mormon would have mentioned that big government was the real problem if it was important. Instead he talked about liberty. So yes, you adding that as a main concern is fanfic and a feeble attempt to wrest the scriptures to score political points. And that is sad. :(

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4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

You would think Mormon would have mentioned that big government was the real problem if it was important. Instead he talked about liberty. So yes, you adding that as a main concern is fanfic and a feeble attempt to wrest the scriptures to score political points. And that is sad. :(

You cannot deny that King Noah imposed more and more burdens on the people (and enslaved some of them).  That necessitated more soldiers to lay a thuggish hand on resisters, more bureaucrats to keep track of what Joe Blow owed to the gubmint, more servants to manage their harems, and on and on.  It was inevitable that the whole government would get enormous and bloated.  Amlicites and king-men were lusting for that.  Captain Moroni and the people of Zarahemla were very familiar with the history of King Noah and the martyr Abinadi.  The freemen KNEW they had to FIGHT to prevent the inevitable tyranny!

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17 minutes ago, longview said:

You cannot deny that King Noah imposed more and more burdens on the people (and enslaved some of them).  That necessitated more soldiers to lay a thuggish hand on resisters, more bureaucrats to keep track of what Joe Blow owed to the gubmint, more servants to manage their harems, and on and on.  It was inevitable that the whole government would get enormous and bloated.  Amlicites and king-men were lusting for that.  Captain Moroni and the people of Zarahemla were very familiar with the history of King Noah and the martyr Abinadi.  The freemen KNEW they had to FIGHT to prevent the inevitable tyranny!

Actually I think you will find that King Noah neglected the military which is why they lost so bad and his people killed him for it. There is no indication that King Noah was unpopular except for Gideon’s movement. Nibley suggested he might have been the most popular king in the Book of Mormon. I mean, yeah, he pampered himself and his priests but it sounds like the wine also went out to the people and they largely seemed to like having a king that encouraged sin. Also the 20% taxation rate in Noah’s reign is not an unreasonable burden. That was around the norm in much of the ancient world. It is more what he was spending it on as opposed to how much it was.

You should still write up this fanfic. Remember that King Noah has to have pet leopards or panthers.

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Alma 46:12. And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon it—In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children—and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.

I just want to say that I heard that title being raised today in the inauguration.  God was the centerpiece of much of the ceremony.  One commentator and friend of Biden asked him before the inauguration, "are you going to be okay?"  Bidden stopped and put his hand on his shoulder and reached into his pocket and pulled out his rosary beads, which he always carries with him, and said, "Yes, I am going to be okay."    I hope we recognize that title of liberty which he upholds and give him a chance.   I heard freedom being proclaimed from kingmakers who attempted overthrow the government and voice of the people in an attempt to bring America to it's knees before their king.  I heard peace in the call for unity and an end to the uncivil war.  Liberty has prevailed over tyrannical forces and that title was waved in victory today.  That is the irony of Captain Moroni showing up with the kingmakers.

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2 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is the irony of Captain Moroni showing up with the kingmakers.

Everyone always thinks their cause is the just one.  That's human nature.  No one ever thinks they are the bad guy in the story, so in that sense it's not ironic at all.  It plays out exactly how it's expected to play out. 

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22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Everyone always thinks their cause is the just one.  That's human nature.  No one ever thinks they are the bad guy in the story, so in that sense it's not ironic at all.  It plays out exactly how it's expected to play out. 

I think the nation recognizes that the cause of the people at the capital was unjust and contrary to the standards of democracy and title of liberty.  It is not even a partisan issue.  I am sure the kinsmen in the BoM thought their cause was just too, but it certainly would have been ironic for Captain Moroni to show up in support of the kinsmen with the title of liberty raised, despite how the kinsmen viewed their cause.  

In his eyes there may be no irony, but in the eyes of the nation (and I hope everyone on these boards) the irony is stark in that the title of liberty was being raised in an attempt to overthrow democracy and the liberty and voice of the nation in raising a king of sorts.  

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5 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think the nation recognizes that the cause of the people at the capital was unjust and contrary to the standards of democracy and title of liberty.  It is not even a partisan issue.  I am sure the kinsmen in the BoM thought their cause was just too, but it certainly would have been ironic for Captain Moroni to show up in support of the kinsmen with the title of liberty raised, despite how the kinsmen viewed their cause.  

In his eyes there may be no irony, but in the eyes of the nation (and I hope everyone on these boards) the irony is stark in that the title of liberty was being raised in an attempt to overthrow democracy and the liberty and voice of the nation in raising a king of sorts.  

People always do this though.  They always say, well, yes people always think they are right but that doesn't count because I really am right and it's obvious that I am.  Everyone always thinks their cause is the just one, you and capitol captain moroni have that in common.  

I happen to agree with you about the captain moroni dude.  But I've got a lot of republicans on my facebook feed who absolutely believe that it's Biden who has overthrown democracy and liberty.  They are convinced of it.  They would say that you are being ironic.

I don't think the "nation" recognizes that the cause of the people at the capitol was unjust.  I'm guessing there are also posters on here who don't believe their cause was unjust.  Not many agreed with their methods or the storming of the capitol, but there are a lot of people who still fully support the cause behind those actions and who fully believe that evil prevailed today.

I'm not one of them but they are out there and they aren't going to go away.

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49 minutes ago, bluebell said:

People always do this though.  They always say, well, yes people always think they are right but that doesn't count because I really am right and it's obvious that I am.  Everyone always thinks their cause is the just one, you and capitol captain moroni have that in common.  

I happen to agree with you about the captain moroni dude.  But I've got a lot of republicans on my facebook feed who absolutely believe that it's Biden who has overthrown democracy and liberty.  They are convinced of it.  They would say that you are being ironic.

I don't think the "nation" recognizes that the cause of the people at the capitol was unjust.  I'm guessing there are also posters on here who don't believe their cause was unjust.  Not many agreed with their methods or the storming of the capitol, but there are a lot of people who still fully support the cause behind those actions and who fully believe that evil prevailed today.

I'm not one of them but they are out there and they aren't going to go away.

Irony is in the eye of the beholder.  I agree.  For me and for you, at least, it is ironic.

Captain Moroni and the kinsmen both shared the belief that their cause was just too.  That doesn't make them both right.  I can still say it is ironic.  While there are some in the nation who feel that the election was stolen, they are the vast minority.  There were only a tiny handful of representatives who voted to object to and overturn the results of the Electoral College.  I think they are representative of the nation in accepting the results as valid and as the voice of the people.  It is no longer a partisan issue.  With Mitch McConell and Vice President Pence acknowledging the victory, and Mitch along with other top Republican representatives going as far as to say that Trump has "fed lies" to the American people.    

When I say that the nation recognizes the cause of the people storming the capital was unjust, I am speaking to the democratic (not the party) majority.  The nation has spoken.  The nation has prevailed against the kingsmen, despite what they believe about their cause.  They are being hunted down and thrown in jail, where they belong. 

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

People always do this though.  They always say, well, yes people always think they are right but that doesn't count because I really am right and it's obvious that I am.  Everyone always thinks their cause is the just one, you and capitol captain moroni have that in common.  

I happen to agree with you about the captain moroni dude.  But I've got a lot of republicans on my facebook feed who absolutely believe that it's Biden who has overthrown democracy and liberty.  They are convinced of it.  They would say that you are being ironic.

I don't think the "nation" recognizes that the cause of the people at the capitol was unjust.  I'm guessing there are also posters on here who don't believe their cause was unjust.  Not many agreed with their methods or the storming of the capitol, but there are a lot of people who still fully support the cause behind those actions and who fully believe that evil prevailed today.

I'm not one of them but they are out there and they aren't going to go away.

Yes but a political binary does not guarantee that both sides operate on comparable evidence. People can be deceived. And in this case the side of the subversives does not satisfy the regular demands of evidence.

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52 minutes ago, pogi said:

Irony is in the eye of the beholder.  I agree.  For me and for you, at least, it is ironic.

Captain Moroni and the kinsmen both shared the belief that their cause was just too.  That doesn't make them both right.  I can still say it is ironic.  While there are some in the nation who feel that the election was stolen, they are the vast minority.  There were only a tiny handful of representatives who voted to object to and overturn the results of the Electoral College.  I think they are representative of the nation in accepting the results as valid and as the voice of the people.  It is no longer a partisan issue.  With Mitch McConell and Vice President Pence acknowledging the victory, and Mitch along with other top Republican representatives going as far as to say that Trump has "fed lies" to the American people.    

When I say that the nation recognizes the cause of the people storming the capital was unjust, I am speaking to the democratic (not the party) majority.  The nation has spoken.  The nation has prevailed against the kingsmen, despite what they believe about their cause.  They are being hunted down and thrown in jail, where they belong. 

Right. Sincerity does not satisfy justice.

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While I in no way condone what happened at the Capitol, I think it is way to early to come to any serious conclusions about those who planned and executed it. We have become so quick to judge. It's become a hallmark of our national psyche. 

Regarding Captain Moroni in the Capitol, the real Captain Romni is already there, so we have nothing to fear.

I'm so impressed that Mr Biden carries a rosary in his pocket. That is really heartening. Did the priest allow him to receive communion?

I also think it is a serious mistake to project the foolishness of those who invaded the Capitol onto millions of good Americans who hold sincere beliefs about how our political system should function and would condemn this sort of action. 

Living near Seattle and not far from Portland, I'm astounded by the hypocrisy that is now in full display. We have long been living with armed insurrections, occupation of government buildings, attacks on local, state, and federal law enforcement officers, looting of private and government property, disruption of free speech and travel, the forceful take-over and illegal takeover of a state university and illegal detention of administration and faculty, threats at the homes of political and educational leaders, the forceful take-over of a police precinct and declaration of an autonomous government in Seattle, the months of violence, burning, assaulting, and disruptions in these two cities....and more around the country. We have been living with this for well over a year. We no longer go to Seattle or Portland and people are fleeing the area in droves. 

 

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Not many agreed with their methods or the storming of the capitol, but there are a lot of people who still fully support the cause behind those actions and who fully believe that evil prevailed today.

One thing that I will credit this Captain Moroni figure with is if he truly believed that his cause was just and that the election was stolen and that our democracy and our nation is under attack, then he was in the right place doing the right thing.  He is the hero of our nation!   What I don't understand are those who claim that their cause is just but that they disagree with the methods of those who fought to maintain the republic.   If our democracy and our republic has truly been stolen, then that is just cause for war.  We have lost countless lives in defense of our nation and are not afraid to defend the sanctity of liberty and the sanctity of the vote.  If Trump truly believed his claims, why in the world would he call for a peaceful transition of power and hand the nation into the hands of thieves of liberty and democracy without inciting war in defense of the nation?  Why would he condemn the actions of the patriots who attempted to uphold freedom?  That would truly make him the biggest coward and loser in all of history, to hand over the nation so willingly when it had been stolen.  To not stand up and fight, even raising up armies and navies, and by putting lives on the line in defending our nation against thieves of the republic, would be an unforgivable offense.  That is a cause to fight for.  That is a cause to die for.  Who are these people who agree with the cause and yet stand by idly and watch thieves steel the republic in the night and do nothing?  If their cause was just and right, the only true patriots in America were the handful of people storming the capital that day.  Everyone else who agrees with the cause but who did nothing, and even worse, condemned their actions, can we truly call these people patriots?  They are the traitors and the weaklings of the nation.   Our republic is lost and we do nothing?  THAT, I can't understand.  That is why I think a lot of people give lip-service but don't truly believe deep down that America is lost.  If so, they are cowards of the highest magnitude to condemn the heroes and patriots who stormed the capital.   And it must be lost forever, because what is to stop these thieves in the future?  Not even the most powerful man in the world can stop them, and now they are in power.   What can possibly stop them but war?  To agree with their cause and yet to condemn their actions is as unpatriotic as it gets. 

At least, that's how I see it.   They are either heroes or enemies of the republic.  To agree with their cause and yet condemn them for their actions is to intentionally forfeit the nation.  Not for a second would I stand by idly if I believed a thief was in the White House and our Republic was being overthrown - where my vote no longer counts. 

  

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21 minutes ago, pogi said:

One thing that I will credit this Captain Moroni figure with is if he truly believed that his cause was just and that the election was stolen and that our democracy and our nation is under attack, then he was in the right place doing the right thing.  He is the hero of our nation!   What I don't understand are those who claim that their cause is just but that they disagree with the methods of those who fought to maintain the republic.   If our democracy and our republic has truly been stolen, then that is just cause for war.  We have lost countless lives in defense of our nation and are not afraid to defend the sanctity of liberty.   If Trump truly believed his claims, why in the world would he call for a peaceful transition of power and hand the nation into the hands of thieves of liberty and democracy without inciting war in defense of the nation?  Why would he condemn the actions of the patriots who attempted to uphold freedom?  That would truly make him the biggest coward and loser in all of history, to hand over the nation so willingly when it had been stolen.  To not stand up and fight, even raising up armies and navies, and by putting lives on the line in defending our nation against thieves of the republic, would be an unforgivable offense.  That is a cause to fight for.  That is a cause to die for.  Who are these people who agree with the cause and yet stand by idly and watch thieves steel the republic in the night and do nothing?  If their cause was just and right, the only true patriots in America were the handful of people storming the capital that day.  Everyone else who agrees with the cause but who did nothing, and even worse, condemned their actions, can we truly call these people patriots?  They are the traitors and the weaklings of the nation.   Our republic is lost and we do nothing?  THAT, I can't understand.  That is why I think a lot of people give lip-service but don't truly believe deep down that America is lost.  If so, they are cowards of the highest magnitude to condemn the heroes and patriots who stormed the capital.   And it must be lost forever, because what is to stop these thieves in the future?  Not even the most powerful man in the world can stop them, and now they are in power.   What can possibly stop them but war?  To agree with their cause and yet to condemn their actions is as unpatriotic as it gets. 

At least, that's how I see it.   They are either heroes or enemies of the republic.  To agree with their cause and yet condemn them for their actions is to intentionally forfeit the nation.  Not for a second would I stand by idly if I believed a thief was in the White House and our Republic was being overthrown - where my vote no longer counts. 

  

I'm personally glad that not everyone who believes democracy has been stolen has felt they needed to start a war over it.  War so rarely solves anything and I'm not convinced that a fight for government by the people is a valid reason to start one.  People seem to see democracy as being almost sacred (and don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of it), but it's just a system of government, and one that doesn't always turn out well or produce moral results (as the ancient greeks learned).

I don't think many people see it the same way that you do.  I can see your point but I don't personally think voter fraud (as some people see it) is just validation for war. But there are those that do, and war could easily be coming.  It wouldn't surprise me.

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21 minutes ago, pogi said:

One thing that I will credit this Captain Moroni figure with is if he truly believed that his cause was just and that the election was stolen and that our democracy and our nation is under attack, then he was in the right place doing the right thing.  He is the hero of our nation!   What I don't understand are those who claim that their cause is just but that they disagree with the methods of those who fought to maintain the republic.   If our democracy and our republic has truly been stolen, then that is just cause for war.  We have lost countless lives in defense of our nation and are not afraid to defend the sanctity of liberty.   If Trump truly believed his claims, why in the world would he call for a peaceful transition of power and hand the nation into the hands of thieves of liberty and democracy without inciting war in defense of the nation?  Why would he condemn the actions of the patriots who attempted to uphold freedom?  That would truly make him the biggest coward and loser in all of history, to hand over the nation so willingly when it had been stolen.  To not stand up and fight, even raising up armies and navies, and by putting lives on the line in defending our nation against thieves of the republic, would be an unforgivable offense.  That is a cause to fight for.  That is a cause to die for.  Who are these people who agree with the cause and yet stand by idly and watch thieves steel the republic in the night and do nothing?  If their cause was just and right, the only true patriots in America were the handful of people storming the capital that day.  Everyone else who agrees with the cause but who did nothing, and even worse, condemned their actions, can we truly call these people patriots?  They are the traitors and the weaklings of the nation.   Our republic is lost and we do nothing?  THAT, I can't understand.  That is why I think a lot of people give lip-service but don't truly believe deep down that America is lost.  If so, they are cowards of the highest magnitude to condemn the heroes and patriots who stormed the capital.   And it must be lost forever, because what is to stop these thieves in the future?  Not even the most powerful man in the world can stop them, and now they are in power.   What can possibly stop them but war?  To agree with their cause and yet to condemn their actions is as unpatriotic as it gets. 

At least, that's how I see it.   They are either heroes or enemies of the republic.  To agree with their cause and yet condemn them for their actions is to intentionally forfeit the nation.  Not for a second would I stand by idly if I believed a thief was in the White House and our Republic was being overthrown. 

  

These people were not heroes. In fact they're idiots. If you're going to storm the Capitol during a pandemic, a pandemic where wearing mask is acceptable, atleast wear a mask, jeez, maybe some sunglasses also, that way it's harder to be identified. A serious overthrow or occupation would of looked nothing like this. I cant stand antifa, but atleast they're smart enough to cover their faces.

 

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41 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Yes but a political binary does not guarantee that both sides operate on comparable evidence. People can be deceived. And in this case the side of the subversives does not satisfy the regular demands of evidence.

Of course.  We are all capable of being deceived.  But I'm a pragmatic person, and we all know that perception is reality. 

If someone sincerely believes their cause is just, it does not matter at all if they are wrong.  They will behave according to their perception and no amount of moral grandstanding or outrage will cause them to change.

So, I ask myself what is of more worth, labeling people's causes just or unjust, or trying to deal with their actions and beliefs in a way that encourages cooperation, discussion, and empathy?

A lot of people are ready to light the fuse, so to speak.  I'm looking for ways to put out the fire; at this point I'm not interested in judging it. 

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5 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

These people were not heroes. In fact they're idiots. If you're going to storm the Capitol during a pandemic, a pandemic where wearing mask is acceptable, atleast wear a mask, jeez, maybe some sunglasses also, that way it's harder to be identified. A serious overthrow or occupation would of looked nothing like this. I cant stand antifa, but atleast they're smart enough to cover their faces.

 

Give them a break, it was their first riot.  ANTIFA has more riots under their belt, of course they will be better at it.  :lol:

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18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Of course.  We are all capable of being deceived.  But I'm a pragmatic person, and we all know that perception is reality. 

If someone sincerely believes their cause is just, it does not matter at all if they are wrong.  They will behave according to their perception and no amount of moral grandstanding or outrage will cause them to change.

So, I ask myself what is of more worth, labeling people's causes just or unjust, or trying to deal with their actions and beliefs in a way that encourages cooperation, discussion, and empathy?

A lot of people are ready to light the fuse, so to speak.  I'm looking for ways to put out the fire; at this point I'm not interested in judging it. 

I think you're talking about some judgement on their character, based on intent? Even if we assume for a moment that intent matters most in terms of character, is that really the purpose of law enforcement?

Here's one example that clarifies this for me: parents who withhold lifesaving medical care to their children, excusing themselves via religious belief. I say that if they are willing to let their child die for beliefs, let them face legal consequences of prisons, too.

Generally, we have to have a public contract or we have no maintenance of civilization. So if someone attempts to overthrow the government, they will experience consequences. They can console themselves with their good intentions in prison.

Furthermore, beliefs that demand adjudication in the public square must be based on repeatable evidence, not feelings. Again those who use feeling alone to excuse criminal behaviour can rely on those feelings to console themselves in prison. (Or even better, seek better common ground with society.) We have to agree to have a common, accessible standard or we have no foundation.

Edited by Meadowchik
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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

While I in no way condone what happened at the Capitol, I think it is way to early to come to any serious conclusions about those who planned and executed it. We have become so quick to judge. It's become a hallmark of our national psyche. 

Regarding Captain Moroni in the Capitol, the real Captain Romni is already there, so we have nothing to fear.

I'm so impressed that Mr Biden carries a rosary in his pocket. That is really heartening. Did the priest allow him to receive communion?

I also think it is a serious mistake to project the foolishness of those who invaded the Capitol onto millions of good Americans who hold sincere beliefs about how our political system should function and would condemn this sort of action. 

Living near Seattle and not far from Portland, I'm astounded by the hypocrisy that is now in full display. We have long been living with armed insurrections, occupation of government buildings, attacks on local, state, and federal law enforcement officers, looting of private and government property, disruption of free speech and travel, the forceful take-over and illegal takeover of a state university and illegal detention of administration and faculty, threats at the homes of political and educational leaders, the forceful take-over of a police precinct and declaration of an autonomous government in Seattle, the months of violence, burning, assaulting, and disruptions in these two cities....and more around the country. We have been living with this for well over a year. We no longer go to Seattle or Portland and people are fleeing the area in droves. 

 

Surely those who breached the Capitol do not enjoy the approval of most of their fellow partisans. They are a minority, I hope. They represent the first attempt I know of since last January of anyone attempting to overthrow the federal government. That is a profound distinction.

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7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I think you're talking about some judgement on their character, based on intent? Even if we assume for a moment that intent matters most in terms of character, is that really the purpose of law enforcement?

Here's one example that clarifies this for me: parents who withhold lifesaving medical care to their children, excusing themselves via religious belief. I say that if they are willing to let their child die for beliefs, let them face legal consequences of prisons, too.

Generally, we have to have a public contract or we have no maintenance of civilization. So if someone attempts to overthrow the government, they will experience consequences. They can console themselves with their good intentions in prison.

Furthermore, beliefs that demand adjudication in the public square must be based on repeatable evidence, not feelings. Again those who use feeling alone to excuse criminal behaviour can rely on those feelings to console themselves in prison. (Or even better, seek better common ground with society.) We have to agree to have a common, accessible standard or we have no foundation.

I’m not talking about being subject to laws. If someone breaks the law they are accountable to that, regardless of if their cause is just or moral.

I’m talking about making moral judgments on people’s actions and beliefs, not legal judgments. 

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30 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm personally glad that not everyone who believes democracy has been stolen has felt they needed to start a war over it.

I think few truly believe that deep down.  Otherwise there would have been a war, or will be one.

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

War so rarely solves anything and I'm not convinced that a fight for government by the people is a valid reason to start one. 

War is the reason we exist as a republic.  It is has preserved our nation and liberties.  Our people are not afraid to fight to protect the republic.  If we have no vote, than our republic is defeated.  It is that serious. 

36 minutes ago, bluebell said:

People seem to see democracy as being almost sacred...but it's just a system of government...

Not to be too technical but the republic is the form of government and democracy is the ideology that shapes the republic.  Our republic is the system of government that allows our country to be democratic.  If you want to steal our republic, you have to defeat democracy.  If Trumps claims are true, then we have lost our republic.  It is no longer ours.  That, to me, is reason to fight and justifies war.  That is the danger of Trumpism.  It will take over our republic if we let it.    

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3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I’m not talking about being subject to laws. If someone breaks the law they are accountable to that, regardless of if their cause is just or moral.

I’m talking about making moral judgments on people’s actions and beliefs, not legal judgments. 

I try to focus on the act so as to decipher appropriate boundaries, leaving spiritual judgment to others.

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7 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think few truly believe that deep down.  Otherwise there would have been a war, or will be one.

War is the reason we exist as a republic.  It is has preserved our nation and liberties.  Our people are not afraid to fight to protect the republic.  If we have no vote, than our republic is defeated.  It is that serious. 

Not to be too technical but the republic is the form of government and democracy is the ideology that shapes the republic.  Our republic is the system of government that allows our country to be democratic.  If you want to steal our republic, you have to defeat democracy.  If Trumps claims are true, then we have lost our republic.  It is no longer ours.  That, to me, is reason to fight and justifies war.  That is the danger of Trumpism.  It will take over our republic if we let it.    

We are a Democrat Republic, purposefully fashioned more after the republic of Rome than the democracy of Greece, which was not a republic.

But like I said before, I understand what you are saying, I just disagree that losing a republic is a valid reason for war. I don’t personally believe that is supported by scripture.

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