He was arrested in Provo riot; now, he’s been arrested for storming of the Capitol

[Scott Lloyd]

29 minutes ago, pogi said:

If we were allowed to give equal attention to the Capital riots as were given the BLM riots, I would have no problem with this thread being open.  The fact that every Capital riot thread has been shut down while BLM riot threads (which were highly political and non religious) flourished, inspires me to put a stop to the imbalance.  It doesn’t seem right.  As Calm points out, the mods may not be to blame, but still, this is too much!

I don’t agree with, or even like the presence of, many threads that are allowed on the board, but I don’t try to get them shut down. 
 

I’m confident that by now you’ve made your grievance known to the moderation team and they will make or have made their decision. Meanwhile, I will join with provoman and invite you not to participate on the thread if it rankles you so. 

[Scott Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, provoman said:

I tend to believe that John Sullivan's arrest stem not from his presence, at the capital or in the capital. Rather I tend to think his arrest stems from his comments he made at the Capital and his actions.  

I believe that had he not voice statements to foment agitation or statement to encourage the police to not interfer with the storming of the Capital, then I believe that Sullivan could have a strong claim to being a "journalist" (even without specific credentials; though I do respect your many years as a journalist and that you would have a more learned opinion on what it means to be a journalist).  For reference, a twitter user bgonthescene, appears to have "stormed" the capital and posted videos to twitter as the events were unfolding. This same twitter user was at kenosha when multiple people were shot, and I believe his video is the main if only video of the shooting. 

One thing I beleive Sullivan did provide is upclose and personal view of the woman who was killed by capital police while trying to enter a hallway through a barricaded door.

 

Thanks. 
 

In answer to your question, there are no standard credentials for journalists, though there is a Canon of Ethics to which members of the Society of Professional Journalists (and others) adhere. 
 

So, I guess the long-and-short of it is that it’s the wild, Wild West, concerning who is or is not a journalist, especially in this day and age, when anyone with an internet connection can be a publisher or a broadcaster or a videographer. 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, provoman said:

Rather I tend to think his arrest stems from his comments he made at the Capital and his actions.  

I agree.  I didn’t have a problem with him at first when he claimed to be only there to observe and document (though given his involvement in the Provo shooting I wondered if that was all it was).  I think that is important and usually recognized by society at least as something different than being a ‘member of the mob’.  But he did way more than that.  He contributed to ramping up the level of violence, encouraged and even led criminal action (breaking into the room).

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It is primarily the Utah connection, IMO.  Makes some of those of us who live here more curious about him than others who have been arrested.  I have been reading local newspapers to some extent and they all are giving more column space to locals involved.

My original curiosity was how much this guy could be tied to BLM given the protests this summer (where I noted BLM had distanced themselves as uninvolved iirc in organizing the Provo protest).  And then it became like watching a train wreck happen.  I figured if he could be tied in any which way, he would be to support the lie that antifa created the violence at the Capitol.  Psychologically I then became interested in how he might justify his behavior which any half idiot would know would damage the cause he claims to support.

That is fair. As I mentioned, I found the info interesting that’s been given and it points to him being more than a bit of a lone figure with some wonky ideas. But that’s about as far as that can go. 
I also agree a bit with pogi on the discrepancy between BLM and some of the issue that led up to the domestic terrorism here. And this maybe more my frustrations with how conversations with them have gone. Often here (and other places) BLM was strongly critiqued from those not invested or really effected by the problems,  with only some recognition about the cause and concern. Whenever a small number became violent it all became a mob or riots and anarchy this. It was a tightrope of discussion that often lost or minimized the main point: that black people, families, and communities among other minority groups have faced unfair and even brutal treatment from police across the country and there has been very little to change this for decades. 
 

for this, I get that it can easily veer political, but it’s still irritating to watch the focus not be on at least some of the less political and more religious influences that’s fed a serious turn/growth of conservative radicalism. There’s a problem in conservative/religious circles but instead of focusing on what exactly that is...there’s discussion on a guy who’s non-representative of those largely there. It bothers me that the same level of critique, analysis, and concern tie to BLM isn’t being give when it’s proverbially in one’s own house (not specifically you, but more conservative circles). 

 

with luv, 

bd

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

there’s discussion on a guy who’s non-representative of those largely there.

There was the discussion about the Capt Moroni figure and the title of liberty, but not much is known about him or being said in the news as far as I have seen outside the first notice.

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I think the point is pretty clear to me:

It's a diversion tactic.  We heard it all through the impeachment trial from many reps who tried to divert attention to the left for BLM protests.   As if a fascist insurgency attempting to take over the Capital of the United States to thwart the voice of the people is even comparable. 

Seriously, after all that has happened inside the Capital of the United States, why in blazes are we talking about Provo protests and this little weasel Sullivan?

Why have we been allowed to discuss BLM protests for pages and pages and pages, and as soon as a movement on the right attempts to overthrow the government the thread is shut down?  We can shame a leftist idiot at the capital, but we can't talk about the stain on America which is Trumpism attempting to bring America to it's knees before their king?
Sullivan?  Provo?  That is the subject of debate after all that has happened?

I know that no one here supports what happened at the Capital, but these diversion tactics to embarrass the left and divert attention from the mess that is their own party which is unfortunately in shambles because of Trump is too much.  I am so saddened to see the Republican party so divided over one big looser.  Many probably will not believe me when I say that, but I have historically voted predominantly republican.  Trumpism has unfortunately infected and corrupted a divided party however.  Many prominent republicans now feel safe to agree with me on that.  I suspect more will follow.

I say down with this thread!  If we are going to discuss the events at the Capital, it should be framed in its proper light. 

I largely agree...but i can’t say I lean Republican so this may seem disingenuous...but I’m also deeply concerned about what’s happening with the party and those who are more religiously conservative than I. Particularly since I live in an area where both are the dominant views of the community. I want a robust and healthy democracy and I want us to be able to share our views in healthy and productive ways. To me, this strain shown on the capitol, though, puts that at risk. And without accountability to what led to this and actively working to reduce the tendencies that lead to radicalism in our communities, it’s likely to happen again. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

[Meadowchik]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

There was the discussion about the Capt Moroni figure and the title of liberty, but not much is known about him or being said in the news as far as I have seen outside the first notice.

He did an interview outside, where he bore his testimony, and then was photographed inside.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I think the point is pretty clear to me:

It's a diversion tactic.  We heard it all through the impeachment trial from many reps who tried to divert attention to the left for BLM protests.   As if a fascist insurgency attempting to take over the Capital of the United States to thwart the voice of the people is even comparable. 

Seriously, after all that has happened inside the Capital of the United States, why in blazes are we talking about Provo protests and this little weasel Sullivan?

Why have we been allowed to discuss BLM protests for pages and pages and pages, and as soon as a movement on the right attempts to overthrow the government the thread is shut down?  We can shame a leftist idiot at the capital, but we can't talk about the stain on America which is Trumpism attempting to bring America to it's knees before their king?
Sullivan?  Provo?  That is the subject of debate after all that has happened?

I know that no one here supports what happened at the Capital, but these diversion tactics to embarrass the left and divert attention from the mess that is their own party which is unfortunately in shambles because of Trump is too much.  I am so saddened to see the Republican party so divided over one big looser.  Many probably will not believe me when I say that, but I have historically voted predominantly republican.  Trumpism has unfortunately infected and corrupted a divided party however.  Many prominent republicans now feel safe to agree with me on that.  I suspect more will follow.

I say down with this thread!  If we are going to discuss the events at the Capital, it should be framed in its proper light. 

I find a lot of Utah-centric discussion on this board and don't mind it at all. I can't relate much, which is why my contributions are usually in the form of jokes in poor taste. Posters identify with both the intertwining religious and geographic aspects of their culture. This is very reasonable as our Church acknowledges in her doctrine that Israel is gathered both physically and spiritually. So a bum from Utah making national news will make it onto MDDB. How do we deal with this as united participants in discussion, whether we are LDS or not?

Two books I find highly informative in understanding where people are coming from are:  On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century, by Timothy Snyder, and The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, by Jonathan Haidt.

I  think it will take some genius to use this opportunity that has been extended to us from the beginning of the pandemic through last summer's protests through this current distress -- which I view as a trajectory of revealing the bad, worse and worst of human nature (2 Thessalonians 2:3) on a broad scale (the man of sin is not a political leader but the natural man we all can be) -- to tackle these issues. As the books above show, the resolution is not necessarily political, and we all know what we preach.

My 2 cents for not shutting down! 

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by CV75

[Meadowchik]

1 minute ago, BlueDreams said:

I largely agree...but i can’t say I lean Republican so this may seem disingenuous...but I’m also deeply concerned about what’s happening with the party and those who are more religiously conservative than I. Particularly since I live in an area where both are the dominant views of the community. I want a robust and healthy democracy and I want us to be able to share our views in healthy and productive ways. To me, this strain shown on the capitol, though, puts that at risk. And without accountability to what led to this and actively working to reduce the tendencies that lead to radicalism in our communities, it’s likely to happen again. 
 

with luv, 

BD 

Yes, and to the extent that many religious ideas easily develop into the current strain of radicalism, it's completely disappointing that it won't be talked about and examined here. 

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I find a lot of Utah-centric discussion on this board and don't mind it at all. I can't relate much, which is why my contributions are usually in the form of jokes in poor taste. Posters identify with both the intertwining religious and geographic aspects of their culture. This is very reasonable as our Church acknowledges in her doctrine that Israel is gathered both physically and spiritually. So a bum from Utah making national news will make it onto MDDB. How do we deal with this as united participants in discussion, whether we are LDS or not?

 

If the Utah-centric nature merits discussion of a Utahn's participation in political activities, then what would be the reason to prevent discussion on the LDS relationship to the current crisis in the United States?

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Yes, and to the extent that many religious ideas easily develop into the current strain of radicalism, it's completely disappointing that it won't be talked about and examined here. 

According to The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, by Jonathan Haidt, it is not religious/political expression but the moral foundation of the individual that drives these expressions that needs to be understood and validated so that their expression can be redirected in a less destructive manner (compromise). Like personality, these foundations are genetically predisposed and defined through social experience.

[CV75]

5 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

If the Utah-centric nature merits discussion of a Utahn's participation in political activities, then what would be the reason to prevent discussion on the LDS relationship to the current crisis in the United States?

None -- go ahead!

[Scott Lloyd]

40 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I find a lot of Utah-centric discussion on this board and don't mind it at all. I can't relate much, which is why my contributions are usually in the form of jokes in poor taste. Posters identify with both the intertwining religious and geographic aspects of their culture. This is very reasonable as our Church acknowledges in her doctrine that Israel is gathered both physically and spiritually. So a bum from Utah making national news will make it onto MDDB. How do we deal with this as united participants in discussion, whether we are LDS or not?

Two books I find highly informative in understanding where people are coming from are:  On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century Paperback, by Timothy Snyder, and The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, by Jonathan Haidt.

I  think it will take some genius to use this opportunity that has been extended to us from the beginning of the pandemic through last summer's protests through this current distress -- which I view as a trajectory of revealing the bad, worse and worst of human nature (2 Thessalonians 2:3) on a broad scale (the man of sin is not a political leader but the natural man we all can be) -- to tackle these issues. As the books above show, the resolution is not necessarily political, and we all know what we preach.

My 2 cents for not shutting down! 

 

I appreciate your thoughts. 
 

Regarding the geographic aspects of the Church (or, if you will, Zion), I think they are even more influential to Latter-day Saints than geographic aspects would generally be in other groups or cultures. Hence, I consider a temple of the Church to be a sacred space and hold it in high reverence, regardless of where in the world it is located. And I have affinity for Church members in lands and cultures where I would otherwise find little in common with myself. 
 

I was especially disturbed, therefore, to think that the Provo riot (and yes, Calm, I’m going to continue to call it that) transpired within a quarter-mile, if that, from the Provo City Center Temple. I live one county away from Provo, but I would feel the same if I lived on the other side of the world. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

If the Utah-centric nature merits discussion of a Utahn's participation in political activities, then what would be the reason to prevent discussion on the LDS relationship to the current crisis in the United States?

 

6 minutes ago, CV75 said:

None -- go ahead!

But please start another thread for that purpose. 

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

then was photographed inside.

I hadn’t see him inside.  So wrong.  Maybe I didn’t see it because I couldn’t last through the video, it is cringe material for me.  Thanks.  Google only brings up about 20 hits when I searched on “title of liberty” “Capitol” and limit it to a month.  I haven’t seen anything on his background, have you? (Moroni brings up problems in Comoros).

Edited January 15, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

yes, Calm, I’m going to continue to call it that)

I never doubted you would.

Quote

transpired within a quarter-mile, if that, from the Provo City Center Temple.

Temple property is across the street from the shooting.

Quote

I would feel the same if I lived on the other side of the world. 

Which may be a result of you being a native Utahn.

I was raised in California and Illinois, went to BYU, more or less lived in Utah from76 to 85 minus some summers.  Parents were both born in Utah, but raised outside of it and even though Dad went to UoU and tons of family lived in Utah, I never felt any particular fondness for Utah from my parents.  No dislike either, just didn’t talk about it.  When we were in Kansas and then Canada, I definitely did not feel the interest in Utah in the news that I now feel after living 17 years here.  When we were in Canada, the Canadians weren’t that interested unless they were BYU fans or originally from Utah and even then it varied a lot.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

7 minutes ago, Calm said:

Temple property is across the street from the shooting.

 

Well, there you go! 

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

.

Which may be a result of you being a native Utahn.

It could be, but I don’t think it is. 
 

I think it stems more from having been steeped in gospel doctrine and the Zion concept from my birth on through to adulthood. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Meadowchik]

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

I hadn’t see him inside.  So wrong.  Maybe I didn’t see it because I couldn’t last through the video, it is cringe material for me.  Thanks.  Google only brings up about 20 hits when I searched on “title of liberty” “Capitol” and limit it to a month.  I haven’t seen anything on his background, have you?

Images of him in the Capitol were not in the video I saw. This was on Twitter. The room in the photograph is the crypt, which is directly under the Rotunda.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

think it stems more from having been steeped in gospel doctrine and the Zion concept from my birth on through to adulthood. 

Possible, but I don’t know of anyone who was more “steeped” in such than my mother and not really interested in Utah till she moved here in 2015.  Also knew a couple of Canadians that were real church history buffs and even rather Americancentric...but not Utahcentric.

I don’t believe I ever met any Saint who was Utahcentric who wasn’t raised there or married to someone who was.  No doubt there are some, but would be surprised if even a significant minority.

Edited January 15, 2021 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

39 minutes ago, CV75 said:

According to The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, by Jonathan Haidt, it is not religious/political expression but the moral foundation of the individual that drives these expressions that needs to be understood and validated so that their expression can be redirected in a less destructive manner (compromise). Like personality, these foundations are genetically predisposed and defined through social experience.

Yep, I agree that it is an insightful book. The religious-themed radicalisation right now is complex and forms of it are relatively widespread. The Righteous Mind addresses the question of changing peoples' minds. While that is an important goal, it's not the only objective in this situation where dogma has resulted in sedition.

[Meadowchik]

38 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

But please start another thread for that purpose. 

Just seeing this now.

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Possible, but I don’t know of anyone who was more “steeped” in such than my mother and not really interested in Utah till she moved here in 2015.  Also knew a couple of Canadians that were real church history buffs and even rather Americancentric...but not Utahcentric.

I can only speak to my own experience and mindset. 
 

And I don’t believe it is being “Utahcentric” to understand and appreciate the integral role of Utah in the unfolding of the events of the latter-day coming forth of the kingdom of God and the establishment of Zion — or to reverence its sacred spaces as one would any of the sacred spaces wherever they might be located in the world. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Just seeing this now.

No problem. 
 

There are people here who are mad at me for even starting this thread and would gladly use any pretext to have it shut down. I’m just trying to keep it focused. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I find a lot of Utah-centric discussion on this board and don't mind it at all. I can't relate much, which is why my contributions are usually in the form of jokes in poor taste. Posters identify with both the intertwining religious and geographic aspects of their culture. This is very reasonable as our Church acknowledges in her doctrine that Israel is gathered both physically and spiritually. So a bum from Utah making national news will make it onto MDDB. How do we deal with this as united participants in discussion, whether we are LDS or not?

Two books I find highly informative in understanding where people are coming from are:  On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century, by Timothy Snyder, and The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, by Jonathan Haidt.

I  think it will take some genius to use this opportunity that has been extended to us from the beginning of the pandemic through last summer's protests through this current distress -- which I view as a trajectory of revealing the bad, worse and worst of human nature (2 Thessalonians 2:3) on a broad scale (the man of sin is not a political leader but the natural man we all can be) -- to tackle these issues. As the books above show, the resolution is not necessarily political, and we all know what we preach.

My 2 cents for not shutting down! 

 

The second part of your comment is not what this thread is about.

The first part is a stretch to suggest this has any religious relevance simply because the dude is from Utah.  This is a news event at best, political at worst. 

Edited January 15, 2021 by pogi