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I had a question on this section of the manual

13 - When the Lord commanded Lehi and his family to obtain the plates of 
brass from Laban, He did not give specific instructions on how to accomplish 
this commandment.

Was the Holy Spirit operating on his own initiative when he gave a specific 
instruction to kill Laban to get the plates?

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28 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

I had a question on this section of the manual

13 - When the Lord commanded Lehi and his family to obtain the plates of 
brass from Laban, He did not give specific instructions on how to accomplish 
this commandment.

Was the Holy Spirit operating on his own initiative when he gave a specific 
instruction to kill Laban to get the plates?

They are three persons with "one mind" for all we are capable of understanding.

If a person in your family goes to the store, does that person need to call the family leader to buy a quart of milk?  Or if some child wants to go to Susie's house, does one parent have to check with another parent to allow it or disallow it?

If the parents are of one mind on visiting Susie, there is no decision to make.

They all know instantly what the correct "thing to do" is, as well as knowing the future and what they WILL do in any "decision" if that word even makes sense in that context.  I believe they do not "decide" what is right, they simply know it and do it, since they 3 are themselves the source of what we call "goodness".

They cannot do anything "wrong" by definition, because they define what is good by what they do/advise us to do.

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1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

I had a question on this section of the manual

13 - When the Lord commanded Lehi and his family to obtain the plates of 
brass from Laban, He did not give specific instructions on how to accomplish 
this commandment.

Was the Holy Spirit operating on his own initiative when he gave a specific 
instruction to kill Laban to get the plates?

The quote from the manual is simply saying the Lord didn’t tell Nephi and his brothers exactly how to go about obtaining the plates at the time when they were first commanded to get them. The quote isn’t saying the Lord never inspired them to know what to do, it’s only saying he didn’t inspire them to know what to do until after their first two attempts to obtain the plates failed when using their own strategies. 

Edited by teddyaware
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38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

They are three persons with "one mind" for all we are capable of understanding.

If a person in your family goes to the store, does that person need to call the family leader to buy a quart of milk?  Or if some child wants to go to Susie's house, does one parent have to check with another parent to allow it or disallow it?

If the parents are of one mind on visiting Susie, there is no decision to make.

They all know instantly what the correct "thing to do" is, as well as knowing the future and what they WILL do in any "decision" if that word even makes sense in that context.  I believe they do not "decide" what is right, they simply know it and do it, since they 3 are themselves the source of what we call "goodness".

They cannot do anything "wrong" by definition, because they define what is good by what they do/advise us to do.

Tanakas is equating the brothers not being given a precise step-by-step description of how to go about obtaining the plates when they were first given the commandment to never being inspired to know what to do at any time later during the unfolding process (on another thread I noticed Tanakas seems to have a problem with nuance). In this case, there’s an assumption that the Lord never revealed how to get the plates because he didn’t tell them exactly what to do when the commandment was first given, hence the snarky suggestion that the Holy Ghost and God the Father act independently and at cross purposes.

Edited by teddyaware
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2 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

I had a question on this section of the manual

13 - When the Lord commanded Lehi and his family to obtain the plates of 
brass from Laban, He did not give specific instructions on how to accomplish 
this commandment.

Was the Holy Spirit operating on his own initiative when he gave a specific 
instruction to kill Laban to get the plates?

Since He was an agent facilitator in the fulfillment of the Lord's commandment to Lehi and his family to obtain the plates of brass from Laban, yes and no. We each must take initiative to follow the Lord, not direct Him (so yes); and, we each must take initiative to follow the Lord, not direct Him (so no).

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3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Tanakas is equating the brothers not being given a precise step-by-step description of how to go about obtaining the plates when they were first given the commandment to never being inspired to know what to do at any time later during the unfolding process (on another thread I noticed Tanakas seems to have a problem with nuance). In this case, there’s an assumption that the Lord never revealed how to get the plates because he didn’t tell them exactly what to do when the commandment was first given, hence the snarky suggestion that the Holy Ghost and God the Father act independently and at cross purposes.

Aha, that  certainly makes sense for the "question" then.

If that is the case, perhaps they (?) don't understand the gift of agency, and how life is at least partially a test to see how well we do in seeking inspiration and solving our own problems.

Agency is key in our church, since life is a test.

If we are commanded in all things, there are no tests, and no exaltation or reason for it.

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12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Aha, that  certainly makes sense for the "question" then.

If that is the case, perhaps they (?) don't understand the gift of agency, and how life is at least partially a test to see how well we do in seeking inspiration and solving our own problems.

Agency is key in our church, since life is a test.

If we are commanded in all things, there are no tests, and no exaltation or reason for it.

There are many instances in the Bible when commandments were given by the Lord without him giving a detailed plan of action at the outset. For instance, the children of Israel were commanded to conquer and inhabit the promised land without an inspired, carefully laid out strategy when the commandment was first given.

Before I post anything, 95% of the time I carefully look for any holes in my logic and analysis so I don’t end up making a fool of myself. But I guess when someone is deeply emotionally invested in debunking the Book of Mormon careful analysis is thrown out the window in favor of hoping that something thrown against the wall eventually sticks.

 

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58 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

There are many instances in the Bible when commandments were given by the Lord without him giving a detailed plan of action at the outset. For instance, the children of Israel were commanded to conquer and inhabit the promised land without an inspired, carefully laid out strategy when the commandment was first given.

Before I post anything, 95% of the time I carefully look for any holes in my logic and analysis so I don’t end up making a fool of myself. But I guess when someone is deeply emotionally invested in debunking the Book of Mormon, careful analysis is thrown out the window in favor of hoping that something thrown against the wall eventually sticks.

 

Great. Agree!

Except I just post whatever comes out because I am so used to making a fool of myself 🤪😉

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On 1/12/2021 at 5:02 PM, Calm said:

Meaning what?  He didn’t check in with God the Father first?

They are of one heart and one mind, what difference would it make?

Let me rephrase with more particular emphasis on what may or may not have
occurred.

In light of what the manual said - "the Lord ... did not give specific instructions
on how to accomplish this commandment
" [to obtain the brass plates], did the
Lord instruct the Holy Spirit to instruct Nephi to kill Laban (meaning the Lord did
give a specific instruction on how to obtain the plates) or was the Holy Spirit acting
on his own initiative with his own specific instruction (meaning the Lord did not
give a specific instruction)?

Pete

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4 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

Let me rephrase with more particular emphasis on what may or may not have
occurred.

In light of what the manual said - "the Lord ... did not give specific instructions
on how to accomplish this commandment
" [to obtain the brass plates], did the
Lord instruct the Holy Spirit to instruct Nephi to kill Laban (meaning the Lord did
give a specific instruction on how to obtain the plates) or was the Holy Spirit acting
on his own initiative with his own specific instruction (meaning the Lord did not
give a specific instruction)?

Pete

I am sorry but I am still having trouble figuring out what you are not understanding and why you are still asking the question.

From above:

Quote

 "The Lord.. did NOT give specific instructions.."

YOU put the quotes there, asserting that those are the exact words found in the manual.

Who is the "Lord" in this context.?

He is God.  

God is a unity of three persons, who THINK AS ONE PERSON.  In giving instructions to men, they NEVER DISAGREE.

I would think that this would be clear from the previous discussion.

So the manual is saying that "The Lord"- in this context meaning all three - "agreed" - because they cannot disagree, because to do so would deny their unity- to NOT give specific instructions, but to allow Nephi to make his own decision.   THAT is what "The Lord" means in the context

So the answer is clear as a bell.

All three agreed to allow Nephi to figure it out for himself, and I have found in my life, that this is usually what he wants US to do as well.  :)

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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3 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

Let me rephrase with more particular emphasis on what may or may not have
occurred.

In light of what the manual said - "the Lord ... did not give specific instructions
on how to accomplish this commandment
" [to obtain the brass plates], did the
Lord instruct the Holy Spirit to instruct Nephi to kill Laban (meaning the Lord did
give a specific instruction on how to obtain the plates) or was the Holy Spirit acting
on his own initiative with his own specific instruction (meaning the Lord did not
give a specific instruction)?

Pete

teddyaware already addressed this properly, in my opinion.  But I'll say the same basic point again:

The quote from the manual in context is about the point in time that the Lord commanded them to go and get the plates.  The quote from the manual is under the heading "God will prepare a way for me to do His will."   Here's the full sentence:

"When the Lord commanded Lehi and his family to obtain the plates of brass from Laban, He did not give specific instructions on how to accomplish this commandment."

The manual goes on to say:

"This is often true of other commandments or personal revelations we receive from God, and this might lead us to feel like He has required “a hard thing” (1 Nephi 3:5). What inspires you about Nephi’s response to the Lord’s command, found in 1 Nephi 3:7, 15–16? Is there anything you feel impressed to “go and do”?"

The point is this:  Even though Nephi didn't receive specific instructions on how to get the plates at first, his response was "I will go and do" it.  He responded in faith knowing that the Lord would provide a way for him to do what was asked of him.  And as Nephi went forward and acted in faith, the Lord revealed to Nephi what he should do through the Holy Spirit.  

The manual is teaching an important principle.  We all need to be instruments in the hand of the Lord in doing his will.  And we don't need to receive a step by step set of instructions right at this moment in order to do that.  But if we start out in faith on the path of doing the Lord's will, our Heavenly Father will guide us through the Spirit when the need arises, just like he did with Nephi in obtaining the plates.

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On 1/12/2021 at 2:58 PM, teddyaware said:

Tanakas is equating the brothers not being given a precise step-by-step description of how to go about obtaining the plates when they were first given the commandment to never being inspired to know what to do at any time later during the unfolding process (on another thread I noticed Tanakas seems to have a problem with nuance). In this case, there’s an assumption that the Lord never revealed how to get the plates because he didn’t tell them exactly what to do when the commandment was first given, hence the snarky suggestion that the Holy Ghost and God the Father act independently and at cross purposes.

Good point- I hadn't realized that.

I just could not follow the logic- he has been shown that to be "God" there must never be division between the three.

That, in my opinion is what makes it true that "God is love" quite literally.  Before I joined the church I just saw that as kind of a smarmy cute way of saying that God loves us so much that He IS love, which of course makes no sense logically.  How can a person BE an emotional state inside the mind?

BUT IF you understand that there are three persons which become ONE person through their love and purpose for each other- then literally God "committee" IS literaly made up of unity and purpose.

What is a "Family"?   It is a group of persons who have become unified (ideally) through love and purpose!  They ARE a family BECAUSE they see themselves as unified. One might say that a "'Family' IS love."

What is any association if not groups of people unified by a purpose?   One could say that a Board of Directors is unified by purpose etc.  Each of them is A Director but together they are called a "Board"

It's really ironic that the group making these posts call themselves "Tanakas" - apparently Pete is one Tanaka- all unified- presumably by love - and they do not understand that they are posting as ONE ENTITY simply by calling themselves "Tanakas"!   And we speak of them calling them "Tanakas" as if they are ONE POSTER.

So they are the POSTER named TANAKAS- one entity made of presumably a few or several people with one name- Tanaka.   Of course I am making assumptions but I think it is a good analogy as well!

So which Tanaka is asking the question and did they all agree on asking that question or did one do so independently?

For our purpose it DOESNT MATTER since to us there is only ONE TANAKAS- the "Poster" on this board!

Edited by mfbukowski
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58 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Good point- I hadn't realized that.

I just could not follow the logic- he has been shown that to be "God" there must never be division between the three.

That, in my opinion is what makes it true that "God is love" quite literally.  Before I joined the church I just saw that as kind of a smarmy cute way of saying that God loves us so much that He IS love, which of course makes no sense logically.  How can a person be 

BUT IF you understand that there are three persons which become ONE person through their love and purpose for each other- then literally God IS made up of and unity of purpose.

What is a "Family"?   It is a group of persons who have become unified (ideally) through love and purpose!  They ARE a family BECAUSE they see themselves as unified. One might say that a "'Family' IS love."

What is any association if not groups of people unified by a purpose?   One could say that a Board of Directors is unified by purpose etc.  Each of them is A Director but together they are called a "Board"

It's really ironic that the group making these posts call themselves "Tanakas" - apparently Pete is one Tanaka- all unified- presumably by love - and they do not understand that they are posting as ONE ENTITY simply by calling themselves "Tanakas"!   And we speak of them calling them "Tanakas" as if they are ONE POSTER.

So they are the POSTER named TANAKAS- one entity made of presumably a few or several people with one name- Tanaka.   Of course I am making assumptions but I think it is a good analogy as well!

So which Tanaka is asking the question and did they all agree on asking that question or did one do so independently?

For our purpose it DOESNT MATTER since to us there is only ONE TANAKAS- the "Poster" on this board!

Quite frankly, I’m persuaded what we’re encountering here is a lack of ability to A) think critically, B) comprehend subtlety and nuance, and C) effectively analyze the written word so as to gain a clear and insightful understanding of what’s been read. It’s very difficult to effectively play ‘gotcha’ when your arguments are poorly thought out and half baked.

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On 1/16/2021 at 9:34 PM, teddyaware said:

Quite frankly, I’m persuaded what we’re encountering here is a lack of ability to A) think critically, B) comprehend subtlety and nuance, and C) effectively analyze the written word so as to gain a clear and insightful understanding of what’s been read

Maybe you could clear it all up by answering this simple question then.  Did Heavenly Father
tell the Holy Spirit to instruct Nephi to kill Laban?

 

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4 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

Maybe you could clear it all up by answering this simple question then.  Did Heavenly Father tell the Holy Spirit to instruct Nephi to kill Laban?

Yes, in the sense that they "talk." The oneness of the Godhead is such that they are of one will and mind; what one would do, the others would do as well. When the Spirit told Nephi to slay Laban, the Father and the Son were of one accord on that. 

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1 hour ago, TheTanakas said:

Maybe you could clear it all up by answering this simple question then.  Did Heavenly Father
tell the Holy Spirit to instruct Nephi to kill Laban?

 

Who drives the moon and stars around their orbits? Angels sitting at a steering wheel or blind physics?

What are the other possibilities?

We cannot create the "correct " answer for things we are unable to even fathom. 

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2 hours ago, TheTanakas said:

Maybe you could clear it all up by answering this simple question then.  Did Heavenly Father
tell the Holy Spirit to instruct Nephi to kill Laban?

 

The answer is YES! In the following verses from the New Testament, the Savior clearly testifies that the Holy Ghost cannot act independently of God but can only reveal to men what God the Father and he, Jesus Christ, have first revealed to him. So in answer to your question, God the Father and Jesus Christ commanded Nephi, through the Holy Ghost, that the murderous criminal, grand thief, and organized crime boss named Laban needed to die.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16)

 

Edited by teddyaware
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1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

The answer is YES! In the following verses from the New Testament, the Savior clearly testifies that the Holy Ghost cannot act independently of God but can only reveal to men what God the Father and he, Jesus Christ, have first revealed to him. So in answer to your question, God the Father and Jesus Christ commanded Nephi, through the Holy Ghost, that the murderous criminal, grand thief, and organized crime boss named Laban needed to die.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16)

 

Wow I never noticed that before!!

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1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

God the Father and Jesus Christ commanded Nephi, through the Holy Ghost, that the murderous criminal, grand thief, and organized crime boss named Laban needed to die.

Sounds good to me.!

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On 1/23/2021 at 9:58 AM, TheTanakas said:

Maybe you could clear it all up by answering this simple question then.  Did Heavenly Father tell the Holy Spirit to instruct Nephi to kill Laban?

 

We don't know, but possibly yes. And possibly no.  But I'm sure our Father was okay with what the Holy Spirit told Nephi to do rather than thinking something like: Oh, No! the Holy Spirit has gone rogue, again!

And by the way, I'm also pretty sure that all 3 of them (our Father, our Lord, and the Holy Spirit) knew what Nephi was going to do to kill Laban before Nephi did it and before one of them told him how to do it.

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On 1/23/2021 at 12:56 PM, teddyaware said:

The answer is YES! In the following verses from the New Testament, the Savior clearly testifies that the Holy Ghost cannot act independently of God but can only reveal to men what God the Father and he, Jesus Christ, have first revealed to him. So in answer to your question, God the Father and Jesus Christ commanded Nephi, through the Holy Ghost, that the murderous criminal, grand thief, and organized crime boss named Laban needed to die.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. (John 16)

 

I think what the Spirit of truth has is our Father's, too, as well as what is our Lord's, so that when any of them think or say anything they are all saying and thinking the same thing at the same time.

Otherwise, what?  Our Father would think or say something before the Spirit of truth thought it or said it?  And then and only then would the Spirit of truth think and say what our Father told the Spirit of truth to think and say?

If that were the case I would want to know by what Spirit our Father thought and said whatever our Father thought and said if not by that very same Spirit of truth... which is the same kind of Spirit we all have as children/reproductions of our Father in heaven.

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On 1/13/2021 at 2:30 AM, mfbukowski said:

...since life is a test.

Yes, but it's also a highway. Sorry, that just popped into my head when I read that...

 

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On 1/16/2021 at 11:18 PM, mfbukowski said:

I am sorry but I am still having trouble figuring out what you are not understanding and why you are still asking the question.

From above:

YOU put the quotes there, asserting that those are the exact words found in the manual.

Who is the "Lord" in this context.?

He is God.  

God is a unity of three persons, who THINK AS ONE PERSON.  In giving instructions to men, they NEVER DISAGREE.

I would think that this would be clear from the previous discussion.

So the manual is saying that "The Lord"- in this context meaning all three - "agreed" - because they cannot disagree, because to do so would deny their unity- to NOT give specific instructions, but to allow Nephi to make his own decision.   THAT is what "The Lord" means in the context

So the answer is clear as a bell.

All three agreed to allow Nephi to figure it out for himself, and I have found in my life, that this is usually what he wants US to do as well.  :)

 

I'm reminded of something I've experienced in the Church as a clerk. I've been a ward clerk and am currently serving as our stake clerk, and this is what I have noticed about the functioning of our stake presidency. This is the striving for consensus, and I find this most remarkable -- all three brethren are extremely dynamic and strong personalities. Which in a worldly group might seem to lead to conflict, and not consensus.  At the moment we have a vacancy on the high council, and in our stake presidency WhatsApp group, the stake president has proposed a brother's name to fill that vacancy, and asked his two counselors to pray about it. I know from past experience that the proposed brother will be called only if all three brethren are of one mind on the matter. It is, in a small way, how the Father, Son and Holy Ghost operate. They are three Beings who are in eternal consensus with each other. They know and are completely invested in the goals, methods, and decisions involving all their operations.

The Holy Ghost isn't going to get annoyed with Christ and go off on his own tangent.

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On 1/23/2021 at 10:58 AM, TheTanakas said:

Maybe you could clear it all up by answering this simple question then.  Did Heavenly Father tell the Holy Spirit to instruct Nephi to kill Laban?

I'm not sure I understand the significance of the question.

Your question impliedly suggests that the Holy Spirit may have "gone rogue" when it instructed Nephi to kill Laban.  Is that correct?

In the alternative, your question impliedly suggests that Heavenly Father commanded something wrong or even (for Nephi to kill Laban).  Is that correct?

Your question, then, seems to be of the loaded, have-you-stopped-beating-your-wife-yet variety.  Responding to the question becomes more about its underlying assumptions and motives than about the question itself.

Nevertheless, I'll give it a go.  Here's my take:

1. The Godhead is perfectly unified.  In every respect.  

2. There is no variation between the will and intent of Heavenly Father and the Holy Spirit.

3. There is no possibility that the Holy Spirit "went rogue."

4. The killing of Laban seems to us to be a morally problematic event.  That's an understandable concern.  I invite you to read a bit more on this.  Some good resources:

Thanks,

-Smac

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