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Are past sermons still in force from Prophets past, no matter our current Prophet?


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18 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Awsome!! Now your starting to get it. Like I've said this the past 2 hours, there's very few truths. Exactly what Joseph said.

Then we're all in trouble because he also taught that "A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth."

He also said that "“It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.”

Fortunately he also taught us that "I am learned, and know more than all the world put together. The Holy Ghost does, anyhow, and he is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him."

If we can know the truth of all things through the Holy Ghost I reject your idea that there are very few truths.

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59 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Truth is self-evident.

I'm not sure it is.

One truth that seems self-evident to me in the 21st century is that slavery is immoral. However, slavery was tolerated if not encouraged for most of Judeo-Christian history -- including some statements by Brigham Young such as the one attributed to a speech before the Utah Legislature. It seems to me that if truth is self-evident someone would have spoken for the abolition of slavery (maybe Abraham or Moses or St. Paul) long before the 19th century AD.

Another truth that seems self-evident to me in the 21st century is the inherent equality of the races. However, a lot of Latter-day Saints -- including apostles and prophets -- seemed intent on believing and teaching that some races (well, one in particular) was somehow less than the other(s). Whether by virtue of being Cain's/Ham's progeny, or because they were less valiant in the pre-existence or something. In 2013 or so, when it published the essay, the Church officially disavowed all of these beliefs, but we still don't understand why something that, to us, seems so self-evident, was not understood or believed by our religious forebears.

It seems to me that coming to know truth is a process. As a group/Church, we are continuing to learn new things, and some of those things seem to contradict what our forebears believed. How can we be confident that what seems self-evident to us is an accurate representation of truth as God sees it?

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33 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Heh, uh, no.  Where are you getting the idea that there are very few truths?  Very few truths about what?  Which things?  Where?  In what sense do you mean if not nonsense?

There's 4000 religions on earth right now. For the most part, people think their own religion is true, be it through faith or the fact that's the religion they were born into. A religion, or non religion, wires your brain to see life through a certain lense. Through that lense is your truth. My truth would never lead me to fly a plane into a building and kill 2606 people, but, someone else's truth would. 

 

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Truth is self-evident.  It took me a while to realize that but that is reality.  Each person only needs to be able to see and/or understand what really is or was or will be, without rejecting/denying it, to accept truth/reality.

So you are saying truth is self-evident once you can see it?  Well sure.  But how often can you see clearly instead of through a glass darkly?

5 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I'm not sure it is.

One truth that seems self-evident to me in the 21st century is that slavery is immoral. However, slavery was tolerated if not encouraged for most of Judeo-Christian history -- including some statements by Brigham Young such as the one attributed to a speech before the Utah Legislature. It seems to me that if truth is self-evident someone would have spoken for the abolition of slavery (maybe Abraham or Moses or St. Paul) long before the 19th century AD.

Another truth that seems self-evident to me in the 21st century is the inherent equality of the races. However, a lot of Latter-day Saints -- including apostles and prophets -- seemed intent on believing and teaching that some races (well, one in particular) was somehow less than the other(s). Whether by virtue of being Cain's/Ham's progeny, or because they were less valiant in the pre-existence or something. In 2013 or so, when it published the essay, the Church officially disavowed all of these beliefs, but we still don't understand why something that, to us, seems so self-evident, was not understood or believed by our religious forebears.

It seems to me that coming to know truth is a process. As a group/Church, we are continuing to learn new things, and some of those things seem to contradict what our forebears believed. How can we be confident that what seems self-evident to us is an accurate representation of truth as God sees it?

It's the constant challenge of Mormonism.  The balancing of the knowledge that God and his truths don't change, but that our understanding can change as God reveals more.
We can be so sure we know and God blows our mind with new knowledge.  And conversely God can tell us absolute fact and we can become convinced we know better as time goes by when really we're losing the truth.

An eternity of knowledge and truth is out there.
Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

49f4040fe405ad694b05c5aba11b91c6.jpg

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37 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Then we're all in trouble because he also taught that "A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth."

He also said that "“It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.”

Fortunately he also taught us that "I am learned, and know more than all the world put together. The Holy Ghost does, anyhow, and he is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him."

If we can know the truth of all things through the Holy Ghost I reject your idea that there are very few truths.

Exactly, how many mormons on earth when he said that? If Mormonism is truth, then there's not much truth on earth considering we're only .2% of the worlds population. 

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2 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Exactly, how many mormons on earth when he said that? If Mormonism is truth, then there's not much truth on earth considering we're only .2% of the worlds population. 

You just quoted Joseph, "man can not be saved in ignorance ". That's what I'm saying, 99.8% of the world doesn't believe in Mormonism, if they're ignorant, its because they don't have the truth. No?

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4 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

There's 4000 religions on earth right now. For the most part, people think their own religion is true, be it through faith or the fact that's the religion they were born into. A religion, or non religion, wires your brain to see life through a certain lense. Through that lense is your truth. My truth would never lead me to fly a plane into a building and kill 2606 people, but, someone else's truth would. 

Nonsense.  "Someone else's truth" is a ridiculous term.  Someone is either wrong or right.  It's our life journey to get as much right as possible and discard as much wrong.
It doesn't matter if there are 1000 religions.  Either one is right or none is right.  But they are not all right.  It has nothing to do with perspective.  They could be all partially right.  But there is only one truth, even if nobody has all of it.

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13 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Exactly, how many mormons on earth when he said that? If Mormonism is truth, then there's not much truth on earth considering we're only .2% of the worlds population. 

Actually, there's all the truth available.  Just because 99.8% doesn't have it doesn't change how much truth there is.

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23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So you are saying truth is self-evident once you can see it?  Well sure.  But how often can you see clearly instead of through a glass darkly?

As often as we have enough light to be able to see what can clearly be seen.

D&C 93 > intelligence is light and truth and truth is knowledge of what is and was and will be, so once we have enough "light" to enable us to see/understand the truth we have what we need to see it... the intelligence we need to see it.

And why did we not see it before?  What is, is, and what was, was, and what will be, will be.  So the reason we didn't see truth before is not because the truth changed but because we gained the light that we needed to see it.  

Truth is truth, and always was, and always will be.

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35 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

You just quoted Joseph, "man can not be saved in ignorance ". That's what I'm saying, 99.8% of the world doesn't believe in Mormonism, if they're ignorant, its because they don't have the truth. No?

Most are saved to some degree even though they are not saved to the greatest degree possible.  The kingdom of heaven is for all who are or will be saved and yet not all will be saved to the greatest/celestial degree on the day called their Judgement day.
 

 

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20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Nonsense.  "Someone else's truth" is a ridiculous term.  Someone is either wrong or right.  It's our life journey to get as much right as possible and discard as much wrong.
It doesn't matter if there are 1000 religions.  Either one is right or none is right.  But they are not all right.  It has nothing to do with perspective.  They could be all partially right.  But there is only one truth, even if nobody has all of it.

If someone lives a life believing that, let's say, living as a Methodist is the truest way to get back to God, that's their truth, their beliefs, it brings them comfort, who are you to say what they believe is nonsense? It's not a ridiculous term. 

     I'm going to tell you the future, ready? In the next 30 years our church will get closer and closer to looking like the community of christ. Once we're 90% there, the brethren will buy out the community of christ and by that time non members will be let into the temples without a temple reccomend. They will also buy other Christian churches and not make them follow the rules of the main mormon church. That is the truth, many people won't be able to deal with it. Will you? That's how the gospel will grow in the future, not through missions.

  

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10 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

If someone lives a life believing that, let's say, living as a Methodist is the truest way to get back to God, that's their truth, their beliefs, it brings them comfort, who are you to say what they believe is nonsense? It's not a ridiculous term. 

     I'm going to tell you the future, ready? In the next 30 years our church will get closer and closer to looking like the community of christ. Once we're 90% there, the brethren will buy out the community of christ and by that time non members will be let into the temples without a temple reccomend. They will also buy other Christian churches and not make them follow the rules of the main mormon church. That is the truth, many people won't be able to deal with it. Will you? That's how the gospel will grow in the future, not through missions.

  

Further proof that your perception of reality is a delusion.  I would like to see more pot lucks in the Church, though.  And fewer people who would bring Jello salads.

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17 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

If someone lives a life believing that, let's say, living as a Methodist is the truest way to get back to God, that's their truth, their beliefs, it brings them comfort, who are you to say what they believe is nonsense? It's not a ridiculous term. 

     I'm going to tell you the future, ready? In the next 30 years our church will get closer and closer to looking like the community of christ. Once we're 90% there, the brethren will buy out the community of christ and by that time non members will be let into the temples without a temple reccomend. They will also buy other Christian churches and not make them follow the rules of the main mormon church. That is the truth, many people won't be able to deal with it. Will you? That's how the gospel will grow in the future, not through missions.

If that happened we'd be looking at a second great apostasy and I wouldn't want any part of it.

Fortunately I don't believe for a second God will let it come to that.

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3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Further proof that your perception of reality is a delusion.  I would like to see more pot lucks in the Church, though.  And fewer people who would bring Jello salads.

Same thing people like you thought about blacks and the priesthood 60 years ago. Your a small thinker. The church will grow and non members will be let into the temple no matter if you like it or not. Just grab a piece of paper and a pencil and write out the changes the church has gone through since its restoration. Its policies are getting more and more liberal, not the other way around. Maybe your "truth" wont let you see the changes the brethren are making. It's really exciting if you think about it.

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5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If that happened we'd be looking at a second great apostasy and I wouldn't want any part of it.

Fortunately I don't believe for a second God will let it come to that.

Ouch!! There's alot of good people our there and they're your brothers and sisters. Dont limit God, he has a master plan, have faith brother.

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2 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Same thing people like you thought about blacks and the priesthood 60 years ago. Your a small thinker. The church will grow and non members will be let into the temple no matter if you like it or not. Just grab a piece of paper and a pencil and write out the changes the church has gone through since its restoration. Its policies are getting more and more liberal, not the other way around. Maybe your "truth" wont let you see the changes the brethren are making. It's really exciting if you think about it.

If that's true God has no hand in it.

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5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

If that's true God has no hand in it.

It is God's hand, probably both hands. We all came from the same place before we were sent here. We've always said the other Christian churches have some truth, in the end God will bring them into the flock by using the prophets and apostles, that's not blasphemy, that's love.

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1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

It is God's hand, probably both hands. We all came from the same place before we were sent here. We've always said the other Christian churches have some truth, in the end God will bring them into the flock by using the prophets and apostles, that's not blasphemy, that's love.

That's also not what he has revealed in prophecy and revelation. 

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4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That's also not what he has revealed in prophecy and revelation. 

Luckily, we believe in continuing revelation. I dont remember the exact talk and cant look it up right now but a few years back didn't Pres Nelson say he was just getting started and we would be amazed at what was instore for the future? Personally, I think in the end, when ever that is, all branches of Christianity will have to join hand in hand to have a chance to survive, there's no one better than a mormon prophet to lead the way. Again, and I'm not trying to be an arse about this, but I think your looking at the past to determine the future. You cant when it comes to the full restoration of the church. Anything is possible. 

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4 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Just grab a piece of paper and a pencil and write out the changes the church has gone through since its restoration. Its policies are getting more and more liberal, not the other way around. Maybe your "truth" wont let you see the changes the brethren are making. It's really exciting if you think about it.

Actually, comparing the church today to during Joseph Smith's time, I would say the opposite has happened. Joseph Smith and the early policies of the church were much more radical and liberal than what we have today.

Edit to add: I welcome anything that comes down the road, as long as it's God's revealed will.

Edited by rchorse
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18 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

... If Mormonism is truth, then there's not much truth on earth considering we're only .2% of the worlds population. 

I swore to not engage with you because you have a special talent for misreading what I write, getting your tender widdow feewings hurt by the misreading (which, of course, isn't what I write and may, in fact, be the very opposite of what I write), lather, rinse, and repeat.  :huh::unsure:   Which is rather puzzling, since one of your "Interests," allegedly, is "Staying happy."  :rolleyes:<_<

But "truth" =/= "people."  It would be possible for one person on the face of the earth to believe something and for seven billion plus people on the earth to disbelieve it, but the numbers themselves say absolutely nothing about whether the belief is true.  Truth is truth even if one person believes it and seven billion people disbelieve it, and falsehood is falsehood, even if seven billion people believe it and one person disbelieves it.

Step 2: Misread Me

Step 3: Conclude, Somehow, That Your Very Worth as a Human Being is At Stake Because Someone Disagrees With You

Step 4: Tender Widdow Feewings!!! :(

Lather, Rinse, and Repeat ... <_<:rolleyes:

Sorry to interrupt!  Carry on!

Edited by Kenngo1969
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18 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Same thing people like you thought about blacks and the priesthood 60 years ago. Your a small thinker. The church will grow and non members will be let into the temple no matter if you like it or not. Just grab a piece of paper and a pencil and write out the changes the church has gone through since its restoration. Its policies are getting more and more liberal, not the other way around. Maybe your "truth" wont let you see the changes the brethren are making. It's really exciting if you think about it.

Thank you.  I think I'm getting a better sense of your sense of humor now.

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1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I swore to not engage with you because you have a special talent for misreading what I write, getting your tender widdow feewings hurt by the misreading (which, of course, isn't what I write and may, in fact, be the very opposite of what I write), lather, rinse, and repeat.  :huh::unsure:   Which is rather puzzling, since one of your "Interests," allegedly, is "Staying happy."  :rolleyes:<_<

But "truth" =/= "people."  It would be possible for one person on the face of the earth to believe something and for seven billion plus people on the earth to disbelieve it, but the numbers themselves say absolutely nothing about whether the belief is true.  Truth is truth even if one person believes it and seven billion people disbelieve it, and falsehood is falsehood, even if seven billion people believe it and one person disbelieves it.

Step 2: Misread Me

Step 3: Conclude, Somehow, That Your Very Worth as a Human Being is At Stake Because Someone Disagrees With You

Step 4: Tender Widdow Feewings!!! :(

Lather, Rinse, and Repeat ... <_<:rolleyes:

Sorry to interrupt!  Carry on!

Kenngo1969 I'm not upset at you at all. I've apologized atleast twice I think and also admitted that its probably my fault for not being able to completely understand your humor. Even this post, i dont understand what your getting at🤣🤣🤣. But I'm sure if you and I were sitting face to face we would both be laughing up a storm and having a great time. I would teach you how to surf if wanted to😁. Women love surfers bro😎.  Anyways, like I said before, I wont take anything personally, so please engage as much as you want. I'll figure it out.

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14 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Thank you.  I think I'm getting a better sense of your sense of humor now.

Atleast that makes one of us🤣🤣

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14 hours ago, rchorse said:

Edit to add: I welcome anything that comes down the road, as long as it's God's revealed will.

I seem to recall some survey data -- I think it was around the question of women's ordination -- where the vast majority of LDS respondents seemed to be in a "if the prophet decrees it, we will happily follow" group. It seems that we are good at going along with something as long as we believe it is God's will.

Is the inverse/converse/whatever-it's-called also true? Do we readily reject anything that is not God's revealed will. As Dr. Eyring put it, do we believe that, "In this Church, you don't have to believe anything that is not true."

From there, it seems to me that many of the most difficult issues that we face in the Church are around discerning God's will. Was polygamy God's will? Was the temple and priesthood ban God's will? And so on.

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