The Hill Cumorah

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

And I'm not upset, just wondering how someone else learned how to write like me. It took me years to perfect my writing skills🤣🤣. That was for you Scott.

I don’t think anyone but Crockett thinks you are Reel and he is prone to besmirching some good men’s names, so you are in good company.  And I have no clue why he thinks that as in my opinion your styles are different, except that Reel once posted about having a faith crisis. 

Reel posts as DBMormon on this board if you are curious about him.  He is a former member who is currently an antimormon, does podcasting. Very poor researcher and writer imo.

Will Crockett take the time and make the effort to compare your writing to Reel’s or will he just keep throwing out his accusation without evidence?  I am thinking the latter based on his current behaviour of refusing to substantiate his accusations of fraud of people many of us personally know or knew. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Calm

[Bob Crockett]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Reel works at a pawn shop, so you are now calling Mike an outright fraud since he has said he is a roofer.   I personally think Mike’s style is quite different than Reel’s and have no clue why you think they are the same. 
 

For example, Mike is much more inclined to admit when he has made an error imo.  Reel doesn’t correct even minor stuff like getting the name of Bathsheba Smith (spells it Bethsheba) wrong or even that she wasn’t the wife of Hyrum Smith and he is prone imo to label others as participating in fraud while refusing to do the extra work to figure out they are not, such as simply by watching a video that shows there is only one book unevenly worn rather than relying on stills that make it appear there are two or even calls someone a liar just because he gets an impression they are. 
 

Sounds more like another poster I know than Mike. 

If I'm going to call somebody a fraud you'll see it.  I forgot that Reel was on your Board.  Sorry.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

I forgot that Reel was on your Board.  Sorry.

Huh?  If you mean this board, it is no more my board than yours. If another board, what are you talking about?

Quote

If I'm going to call somebody a fraud you'll see it. 

You prefer to pretend you are not actually willing to call someone a liar based solely on guessing. Got it. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Calm

[Bob Crockett]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

Huh?  If you mean this board, it is no more my board than yours. If another board, what are you talking about?

You prefer to pretend you are not actually willing to call someone a liar based solely on guessing. Got it. 

I am not pretending anything, not am I calling anybody a liar.  I never have.  I can see why you're upset with me pointing out substantial flaws with the first and second "Watson" letters, but I treat the analysis rather clinically.  I've published a few papers on the adequacy of evidence and that is where I'm headed.  That does not mean I am calling people "liars."  I don't think you'll see that word in my posts. 

The two letters are inadequate evidence, for different reasons.  But the problems with the second "Watson" letter are particularly problematic.  That is, the face of the letter has problems.  I don't pretend to analyze who is responsible for that. 

As to Bill Reel, my faith in FAIR declined when I saw he became a participant at FAIR.  I'm not sure whether that means he was on FAIR's Board, because I am not knowledgeable.  But he was a grand pooh bah there and he was a freaking disaster before he came on board.  I've discussed that before and this subject is not germane to this thread.

Now with that Kraku/Ellis stuff it looks like FAIR is approaching apostate status.  But that also is a subject not germane to this thread.

I am more interested in discussing the weaknesses of the second letter and its possible fraud than defend myself personally, so if you don't mind I won't.  Thanks.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Bob Crockett

[strappinglad]

I  was going to test Mike out with a roofing question but that would be rude. That said I think Mike is REAL. 😁

[CV75]

6 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

I treat the analysis rather clinically.

my faith in FAIR declined when I saw he became a participant at FAIR... it looks like FAIR is approaching apostate status.

I can appreciate a clinical analysis of physical evidence, which I think is good for apologetics. 

I would like to see a "professional standards/practices" organization for apologists, and apologetic organizations use them in their membership eligibility /qualification / statuses / etc. policies.

[AtlanticMike]

4 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I  was going to test Mike out with a roofing question but that would be rude. That said I think Mike is REAL. 😁

Haha🤣 you can ask me anything you want.  The only reason I dont use my real name is because when i told my wife i was going to find a board to talk to people about the fairmormon videos ,she told me not to use my real name. So that's why i first came on here with the name Mike Livingston. Mike being my real name but Livingston is not. I felt like I was lying so I changed it to my favorite thing in all of nature, the Atlantic ocean. The reason for not using my real name is because my phone number is all over the internet, again, my wife is way smarter than me, I didnt take that into consideration at first, but now I see why because I'm a smart *** and there's a good chance somebody might just call me🤣🤣🤣 or leave a bad Google review for my business. Man I looooove my wife!!  Also, my wife comes on here and monitors my behavior,  I've been put in time out 2x already.

[Bob Crockett]

12 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I can appreciate a clinical analysis of physical evidence, which I think is good for apologetics. 

I would like to see a "professional standards/practices" organization for apologists, and apologetic organizations use them in their membership eligibility /qualification / statuses / etc. policies.

There isn't likely going to be a standard.  

I tend to think of things in terms of evidence.  Will Bagley relied heavily upon a document in the Church archives called "Discursive Remarks."  Anonymous and very opposed to the Church.  I questioned that reliability of the document and challenged Bagley in my review of his work.

Bagley also cited several rumors against Brigham Young -- manipulating the attack etc.  I asked about the value of that evidence.  My article is here:  https://bobcrockettlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/FARMS-A-Trial-Lawyer-Reviews-Will-Bagleys-Blood-of-the-Prophets.pdf.  

In terms of the support of a Mesoamerican theory, I've taken the same approach. However, as most church apologia supports Dr. Sorenson's work, I'm attacking a sacred cow.  The reaction I'm receiving is much different; in my review I challenged a number of pieces of evidence as fraudulent or less and I never thought to try and identify the fraudsters behind rumors and anonymous sources.  Here, I identify possible frauds and I am told I am attacking the integrity of many members of the church.  Hmm.  Not.

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Haha🤣 you can ask me anything you want.  The only reason I dont use my real name is because when i told my wife i was going to find a board to talk to people about the fairmormon videos ,she told me not to use my real name. So that's why i first came on here with the name Mike Livingston. Mike being my real name but Livingston is not. I felt like I was lying so I changed it to my favorite thing in all of nature, the Atlantic ocean. The reason for not using my real name is because my phone number is all over the internet, again, my wife is way smarter than me, I didnt take that into consideration at first, but now I see why because I'm a smart *** and there's a good chance somebody might just call me🤣🤣🤣 or leave a bad Google review for my business. Man I looooove my wife!!  Also, my wife comes on here and monitors my behavior,  I've been put in time out 2x already.

I need a roof in LA

Come on down! 😉

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

I'm not sure whether that means he was on FAIR's Board, because I am not knowledgeable.  But he was a grand pooh bah there....

 Only in yours and his dreams.

He was not on the board.  He was a podcaster, he was not in the decision making line.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

 Here, I identify possible frauds and I am told I am attacking the integrity of many members of the church.  Hmm.  Not.

Right, because it is the good, honest people of the church who instigate or perpetuate frauds or lie about who they are online.

[Bob Crockett]

Maybe true although I don't assert that. 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Maybe true although I don't assert that. 

Just implying it allows you to act like you are refraining from petty defamation. 

[AtlanticMike]

26 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I need a roof in LA

Come on down! 😉

Thank you for the invitation sir, but I'm scared of earthquakes, I prefer hurricanes with 100 mile per hour winds and tornadoes .😁

[AtlanticMike]

29 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you for the invitation sir, but I'm scared of earthquakes, I prefer hurricanes with 100 mile per hour winds and tornadoes .😁

You want to hear something funny bukowski!! So my wife comes on here and reads as a guest, so when I walked in the door just now, she called me an idiot for not knowing that LA stood for Louisiana, because I thought you meant Los Angeles 🤣🤣. So I guess your used to hurricanes also.

[Bob Crockett]

39 minutes ago, Calm said:

Just implying it allows you to act like you are refraining from petty defamation. 

I have not defamed anybody, petty or otherwise.  Max Hall -- as far as I can see -- had nothing to do with the potential fraudster document.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I need a roof in LA

Come on down! 😉

I just got a new roof in November.  I typically close the door on door-to-door sales men, but thankfully I let a roofer give his spiel since I knew that my roof was getting close to needing a replacement and I wanted a bid.  He was going door-to-door after the giant windstorm we had in Utah, banking on insurance paying for damage.   I had a few shingles blown off from the storm and he contacted my insurance company and had the whole tear-off and replacement covered.  It was around a $13,000 job and all I had to pay was s $1,000 deductible.  Can't beat that!  I never would have even thought to contact my insurance company for a couple shingles blowing off.  I would recommend getting in contact with your insurance company to inspect your roof before paying out of pocket.  If there is recent hail and/or wind damage, they may cover it. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by pogi

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

You want to hear something funny bukowski!! So my wife comes on here and reads as a guest, so when I walked in the door just now, she called me an idiot for not knowing that LA stood for Louisiana, because I thought you meant Los Angeles 🤣🤣. So I guess your used to hurricanes also.

You are both right.  LA is the abbreviation for Louisiana but Bukowski actually does live in the City of Angels. 

Edited January 14, 2021 by pogi

[AtlanticMike]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

You are both right.  LA is the abbreviation for Louisiana but Bukowski actually does live in the City of Angels. 

Haha Haha, hi wifey, if your reading this, I was correct and you were wrong. I dont get to say that very often so I wanted to put it in writing so I can look at this post whenever I want. Love you😁😁😁😁😁😁

[strappinglad]

Think of the ' mileage charge ' !

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

There isn't likely going to be a standard.  

I tend to think of things in terms of evidence.  Will Bagley relied heavily upon a document in the Church archives called "Discursive Remarks."  Anonymous and very opposed to the Church.  I questioned that reliability of the document and challenged Bagley in my review of his work.

Bagley also cited several rumors against Brigham Young -- manipulating the attack etc.  I asked about the value of that evidence.  My article is here:  https://bobcrockettlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/FARMS-A-Trial-Lawyer-Reviews-Will-Bagleys-Blood-of-the-Prophets.pdf.  

In terms of the support of a Mesoamerican theory, I've taken the same approach. However, as most church apologia supports Dr. Sorenson's work, I'm attacking a sacred cow.  The reaction I'm receiving is much different; in my review I challenged a number of pieces of evidence as fraudulent or less and I never thought to try and identify the fraudsters behind rumors and anonymous sources.  Here, I identify possible frauds and I am told I am attacking the integrity of many members of the church.  Hmm.  Not.

The misunderstanding is unfortunate.

Elder Holland spoke of "disciple scholars" which left a good impression on me as an ideal to aspire to. I was thinking the next best thing would be a professional association of sorts with broadly accepted standards, etc., which I would hope would not be too idealistic.

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Max Hall -- as far as I can see --

Has to be intentional....

[Hamba Tuhan]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

Has to be intentional....

 Truly bizarre. Troubling, even.

[AtlanticMike]

43 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Think of the ' mileage charge ' !

Can I hire you as a business consultant, that's brilliant 🤣

Edited January 14, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[strappinglad]

Setting aside the letters and faxes, one of the things that convinces me that there was another Cumorah is a careful reading of Mormon Ch 6 concerning the last major battle between Nephites and Lamanites. That 24 survivors remained on top of the hill and viewed the results , does not fit with the relatively small drumlin in NY. That place would have been overrun in minutes by the Lamanites with an army of , let's say, a couple hundred thousand soldiers. The military experts here can comment on my thinking, but they should look at a topographical map of the NY hill and discuss defensive possibilities in the area as well as how to deploy what might be as many as a million people.