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Another Religion-based "Affinity Fraud" Case in Utah


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It is seductive indeed to replace due diligence with hopeful feelings. I know the feeling and we're still paying for financial choices we made as people eager to trust others. 

 

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56 minutes ago, bluebell said:

like "well sure, God can make that happen and I'm worthy so of course He'll make that happen for me!" and sign right up.

Especially if they are looking for ways to help their family have a better life. ‘It is a righteous desire, so one will be blest’ logic.

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Hmmm... so am I going to be getting a mansion in heaven or not ???

It is hard to know who I can trust these days... but THIS ONE PERSON I KNOW ALWAYS COME THROUGH FOR ME WHEN I REALLY NEEDS HER !!!

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Just now, Ahab said:

Hmmm... so am I going to be getting a mansion in heaven or not ???

It is hard to know who I can trust these days... but THIS ONE PERSON I KNOW ALWAYS COME THROUGH FOR ME WHEN I REALLY NEEDS HER !!!

... OH, and there are also a few men I know who are totally trustworthy too.

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4 hours ago, smac97 said:

"For the love of money is the root of all evil..."  (1 Tim. 6:10).

Thanks,

-Smac

To love money is to want to nurture it and take care of it so that what you have of it will grow and develop into as great a sum of money as the person who has it wants it to be... many thousands or even millions more of it !!!

To hate money is to want to get rid of it and to have very little if any regard for it so that even if you lost all that you had of it you would still be just as happy as you were with it while not caring very much if anything about it.

So the question I always have in regard to money is what is the best way for me to use and otherwise get rid of all that I have of it.  It's just something that I have to do.

Edited by Ahab
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10 minutes ago, Ahab said:

To love money is to want to nurture it and take care of it so that what you have of it will grow and develop into all of the good things the person who has it thinks it can be. ...

I think you know full well that that's not the sense in which Paul is using the word "love" when he speaks of the love of money being the root of all evil.

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38 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I think you know full well that that's not the sense in which Paul is using the word "love" when he speaks of the love of money being the root of all evil.

I know full well that he did... see my edited post which will I hope make what I meant more obvious.

Edited by Ahab
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45 minutes ago, Ahab said:

To love money is to want to nurture it and take care of it so that what you have of it will grow and develop into as great a sum of money as the person who has it wants it to be... many thousands or even millions more of it !!!

To hate money is to want to get rid of it and to have very little if any regard for it so that even if you lost all that you had of it you would still be just as happy as you were with it while not caring very much if anything about it.

So the question I always have in regard to money is what is the best way for me to use and otherwise get rid of all that I have of it.  It's just something that I have to do.

 

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1 hour ago, strappinglad said:

Wealth allows one to be very comfortable in one's misery. 🤑

It is fun to give away, though.  It makes me happy to get rid of it when and the ones I give it to seem to want to get rid of it too.

... oh, and we were talking about money, not wealth.

Edited by Ahab
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7 hours ago, smac97 said:

... "For the love of money is the root of all evil..."  (1 Tim. 6:10).

Thanks,

-Smac

 

4 hours ago, Ahab said:

To love money is to want to nurture it and take care of it so that what you have of it will grow and develop into all of the good things the person who has it thinks it can be.

To hate money is to want to get rid of it and to have very little if any regard for it so that even if you lost all that you had of it you would still be just as happy as you were with it while not caring very much if anything about it.

So the question I always have in regard to money is what is the best way for me to use and otherwise get rid of all that I have of it.  It's just something that I have to do.

 

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I think you know full well that that's not the sense in which Paul is using the word "love" when he speaks of the love of money being the root of all evil.

 

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

I know full well that he did.

Okay, then either (1) your proffered interpretation doesn't make sense; or (2) the Scripture doesn't make sense.  Given a choice between deciding whether: (1) "black-letter" scripture doesn't, on its face, make sense; or (2) someone's idiosyncratic reading of black-letter scripture doesn't make sense, I'm going to choose the latter every time.  Have a good evening.  (This will be my last post on the subject: You're free to believe, erroneously, as you wish. ;))

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5 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

That reminds me of the Utah County "Dream Mine" scheme that caught up several church leaders. 

https://www.reliefmine.com/

 

Off Topic:  This was one of the larger of the historic Utah frauds.  I have studied the Relief Mine history and actually explored the mine itself.  There are still many of the faithful in Southern Utah County who continue to believe Bishop Koyle's story and hold Relief Mine stock.

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18 hours ago, bluebell said:

"well sure, God can make that happen and I'm worthy so of course He'll make that happen for me!" and sign right up.

Of course.  After all, I made a covenant with God that He would make me filthy rich; and if a pack of twice-convicted felons are the tools He has chosen to keep his word, then I just need to repent of my lack of faith!

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On 1/8/2021 at 5:01 PM, strappinglad said:

Wealth allows one to be very comfortable in one's misery. 🤑

I accept the adage that money (or wealth) does not buy happiness. What it does buy is a sense of security and assurance. Not the same thing as happiness, but not an insignificant thing either. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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On 1/8/2021 at 9:54 PM, Meadowchik said:

It is seductive indeed to replace due diligence with hopeful feelings. I know the feeling and we're still paying for financial choices we made as people eager to trust others. 

 

I've subjected myself to expensive financial screwups dealing with perfectly legitimate business opportunities because I didn't seem to be able to accurately measure my own capabilities and tendencies. There was one particular real estate opportunity (a bank foreclosed house) that had the potential of making a fair amount of money, or a smaller amount if I had chosen to handle it in a less risky way. It ended up that I didn't do either one, and another real estate developer (whom I knew, incidentally), found the property independently, bought it, fixed it up, and sold it for a profit of near $100K after just 3 or 4 months. I spent a few thousand dollars on education, and never used any of it. Taught me that I wasn't really a businessman and I just stick to being an employee.

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I went to a shower of a former neighbor's daughter and she told me about a mutual friend that was moving, they were walking partners, they lost $300,000.00 because of a ponzi scam, dealing in silver. So this family is having to sell their home! It's so sad!

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I have resolved since I was a young man:

1.  Never enter into business dealings or investments with a member of the church.  I've very much enjoyed the fruits of this.  I have on occasion lent money to members of the church merely because I knew them at church; I have never once been paid back.

2.  Never go into partnership with or hire as an employee a member of the church merely because I know him to be a member of the Church. The problem with violating this rule is that if you have to let a partner or employee go, they inevitably trash your name with your friends in the church. 

3.  Never hire as a financial advisor, accountant, insurance agent, etc etc a member of the church.  I tend to breach that rule, but so long as they don't have any say in my finances I can make my own decisions.  The problem with violating this rule is that you let people you see at church every week know your business.  On more than one occasion my fiduciary members of the church have been blabbing my business.

4.   Never take on as a client a member of my stake.  I've followed that rule usually.  When I have broken that rule they always, without exception, think they don't have to pay my bills.   The same thing happens when I take on as a client a member of the church not in my stake.  They almost always don't think they have to pay my bills.

5.  I have actually sued members of the church, people I don't know, representing non-members.  They like to use ecclesiatical methods to afflict me.  (My stake president always ignores the pressure.)

 

Edited by Bob Crockett
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21 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

I have resolved since I was a young man:

1.  Never enter into business dealings or investments with a member of the church.  I've very much enjoyed the fruits of this.  I have on occasion lent money to members of the church merely because I knew them at church; I have never once been paid back.

Avoiding business dealings with members of the Church is difficult if you live in Utah or another area heavily populated with members of the Church.  However, I have had a longstanding practice of never taking on legal work from a member of my ward or stake.  If I do take on such work, it is strictly pro bono.

21 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

2.  Never go into partnership with or hire as an employee a member of the church merely because I know him to be a member of the Church. The problem with violating this rule is that if you have to let a partner or employee go, they inevitably trash your name with your friends in the church. 

"Merely because I know him" being the operative phrase, I quite agree with you.

21 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

3.  Never hire as a financial advisor, accountant, insurance agent, etc etc a member of the church.  I tend to breach that rule, but so long as they don't have any say in my finances I can make my own decisions.  The problem with violating this rule is that you let people you see at church every week know your business.  On more than one occasion my fiduciary members of the church have been blabbing my business.

I am happy to hire a member of the Church who is competent, and who is not in my ward or stake, and who does not trade on his/her membership as a selling point.

21 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

4.   Never take on as a client a member of my stake.  I've followed that rule usually.  When I have broken that rule they always, without exception, think they don't have to pay my bills.   The same thing happens when I take on as a client a member of the church not in my stake.  They almost always don't think they have to pay my bills.

If my relationship with a person arises through the Church (such as through ward/stake), then I refer them out to another attorney.  

21 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

5.  I have actually sued members of the church, people I don't know, representing non-members.  They like to use ecclesiatical methods to afflict me.  (My stake president always ignores the pressure.)

I have sued many hundreds of people in Utah, many of whom are presumably members of the Church.  I have never once had a problem with one of them trying to use "ecclesiastical methods" to get back at me.

Thanks,

-Smac

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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

 

I have sued many hundreds of people in Utah, many of whom are presumably members of the Church.  I have never once had a problem with one of them trying to use "ecclesiastical methods" to get back at me.

 

Different in California.  I had one fellow I was suing for fraud bring parts of his high council with him.  He was a high councilor.  They would heckle me in the hall and call my stake president. I got a big judgment.

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56 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am happy to hire a member of the Church who is competent, and who is not in my ward or stake, and who does not trade on his/her membership as a selling point.

Here's the opposite side of that coin. Years ago, before I had gotten my sea legs as a teacher, I didn't renew my contract and wanted to do something else. A member of my ward hired me as his office manager because  I was his bishop. I wouldn't have wanted my bishop into the guts of my company, but it was a good job while it lasted (he decided to close up the business and do something else after a few months). I did payroll (including myself); took and ordered inventory; advertised, interviewed, and hired/fired people; and anything else he needed me to do. I had unlimited access to his business account (which was substantial --- it was an eye-opener to me about a world foreign to me) and could have embezzled everything if I had wanted to. Of course, I would have been on the run or in prison after that, but the sole reason he approached me was he wanted someone he was willing to trust with access to everything, and I was that guy. He would have me move money around between different accounts --- for example, to hire people from New York and move them and get them situated in Florida on short notice. That was a lot of money to move! He needed to go from two secretaries to one, and agonized over having to let her go, so he asked me to do it for him. It wasn't bad, because she was a student, and he offered two month's severance (she took it just fine. More than fine!).

He even had me sign checks for him with his signature. That is a good object lesson for investiture of authority --- if it were questioned, it wasn't a matter of me signing his name; it was him signing his name when I did it, because he recognized it and authorized it as such. I big part of my job was making it so he didn't have to come in. Again, not something I would have done, but that's how he wanted it. 

That's sort of the opposite of affinity fraud --- affinity hiring. It can work out, but the counsel from you two is probably much wiser, in general and overall. 

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