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Can You feel the weight of Your glory? Do You understand the price?


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48 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Hi 3DOP, first, sorry for lumping all Christian's together, I understand there's many different views out there and that was a mistake on my part. The other mistake I made was saying that the Christians I have dealt with, think baptism is a requirement for salvation, or taking upon the name of christ, because they dont. My non mormon family members believe salvation is received by faith alone, anything else would be a work based salvation and that would mean jesus's death on the cross wasn't enough to purchase their salvation. To them, baptism is more of a public acknowledgement of their faith, I think they call it being spirit baptized. Maybe my family is just a bunch of hillbillies 🤣, trust me, that's definitely possible. 

      To me, to take upon the name of christ, begins in the water of baptism. We make a covenant to obey the commandments and to see as God sees, to act as an agent on his behalf. After baptism we stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things. Our individual agency becomes a representative agency, tied together with all of gods children who accepted baptism. I love how you used the expression soldier of christ! Because I feel like I'm a warrior for christ, growing up and still to this day my favorite story in the Book of Mormon is about the 2000 stripling warriors. 

      Now, about the word glory. All glory goes to God. Everything I do is to glorify him and him alone. I firmly believe that's the only reason I'm here! and if I spend my life glorifying him,  everything else falls into place. But, as spirit children of a Heavenly Father and Mother, I also believe our glory is already inside of us. We dont earn it, it's just there, its part of who we are. Right now as mortals living on earth, our glory is a grain of sand compared to Heavenly Fathers who's glory is as deep and wide as all the oceans combined. The enemy of glory is pride. Pride can take your eye off of your goal of glorifying God. Nothing can diminish Gods glory, but pride can diminish our glory to were it's almost unrecognizable. 

   Thank you for sharing with me your knowledge about other religions,  I have alot to learn. 

Well said Mike, but don't you be throwing off on hillbillies. Hillbillies, like anybody else, might have some real good natural qualities. It is no disqualification for grace and holiness to have been born a hillbilly. I don't know that Jesus didn't choose Galilean "hillbillies" to be His Apostles and the foundation after Himself, of His kingdom!

Cheers,

3DOP 

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2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Interesting. You are clearly familiar with Bp. Barron than I am. He is an auxiliary bishop of Los Angeles I think.

Closer to LDS positions on many points? More points than a Traditional Catholic like me? For the last 25 years, it has been evident to me that the Catholic Church and the CoJCoLDS have much in common. I would not be disappointed if, like me, Bp. Barron would be seen as close on many of your positions. I have seen you praise his explanantion of the Catholic Eucharist without hearing anything bad from my usual sources, which keep up with what is going on in the Novus Ordo wing, to indicate that Bp. Barron  is unorthodox in regards to his view of the Holy Eucharist. For the sake of future discussions here, perhaps I should familiarize myself.

But as to your main question, there are many conservative Catholics who approve of the New Order of Mass (Novus Ordo Missae), and who defend all post Vatican II policy and teaching. They would deny that there is an emergency in the Church of such consequence as to legitimize the invocation of statutes in canon law outlining what steps may be taken in a time of crisis or emergency. Canon law sometimes excuses priests or bishops from strict adherence to normal procedures of exercising their offices. This allows a priest to act outside the diocese in which he is incardinated, for instance, when he might come across an auto accident, and a dying victim is asking for the Sacraments of the Dying. Traditional Catholics are those who have believed that it had become necessary in the first post Vatican II generation, for the preservation of the Catholic faith, that a handful of alarmed priests and bishops should band together to provide life-giving Sacraments that were being denied to the faithful. Instead, the Old Rites were said to be unlawful. Never in the history of the Eastern or Western churches had anyone attempted such a rupture of what had always been organic development of the liturgical rites. At the same time, it has become increasingly clear that the new rites (Novus Ordo), if valid, carry significant defects, and the evil fruits of Vatican II seem plain and clear.    

Your question seems to imply that there are no conservative "Novus Ordos". There are. My daughter and her family are conservative Novus Ordo Catholics. (She conceded recently that she can see that the Old Rite of Mass is "better".) Hah! Good enough! Almost there. Conservative Novus Ordo families seem to stagnate in sterility, or move on to Tradition, where there are abundant vocations, schools, and young people everywhere. Of course, Traditional Catholicism has always been a home for sinners, and we are not immune. No one should claim that we have a corner on holiness. But there are good fruits. Growth. Good wheat with the chaff. Statistics bare out that Novus Ordo Catholicism has the appearance of being for the aged, while the children and grandchildren of the old have long ago abandoned a shrinking Church, that never gave them the fullness of the faith.

I hope my long answer does not bore you, or serve as a distraction. I started to write a bunch more and stopped. But your question was unanswerable! There is no dichotomy between conservative and Novus Ordo, and I am thankful for a sizable minority of conservative Novus Ordo Catholic faithful, and what is reduced to a handful of almost insignificant minority of conservative Novus Ordo bishops and priests. I would think Bp. Barron might be considered one of those in the minority who defend traditional Catholic morality and theology without imposing their politics upon the Gospel, and most importantly, without admitting that there is a crisis in the Catholic Church. It is above all necessary for the most conservative Novus Ordo Catholic to deny that there is any rupture between Traditional Catholic morality, worship, and theology, with what has appeared since the 1960's.  

Okay, I stop.

Rory

Thanks. Yes, what he does is defend it all, by understanding it as I would, and I suppose that is because he knows the same philosophy I do.

I think I could accept most of his explanations, and even see the LDS sacrament as being the "real presence" as he sees it, IF that was part of our belief.

I hope that is not blasphemy.

But he actually presents a way of seeing it, as Aquinas in harmony with the atheist Rorty, because he understands that Words create reality, as in John 1.

That is the key.

 I am on my phone and need to change to a computer to finish it this post .

 - later- this is the edit

I cannot find the video I wanted to link to but it was about the Real Presence and about 11 minutes long.

But there are many he has done which are longer.  

The bottom line is that he shows how words have power within a context.   I could say to you that you were under arrest, but that would be meaningless because I did not nave the authority to actually arrest you.  But within the right context, when a police man says the same words to you, those words create a real situation.   You ARE now "arrested"- in a sense you are not in a different state of being than you were minutes ago.  A new reality is created.  But of course you accept the authority of the police and so it becomes completely "real" for you.

 If we do not have a concept of blue, it effectively is not true nor does it exist in our personal universe.   It is meaningless.

But if a blind man can suddenly see, suppose he is somehow cured, and for the first time in his life you show him "blue" it creates a real think for him.

For those who believe in the Real Presence, the priest with authority says  the words of consecration, he makes it so, and it becomes a reality.

When an architect thinks first of a building and makes it so, he is creating it out of words and ideas.   He is creating reality.

And so the real presence is created by the words and beliefs of the people.   The context makes it so.

And also this is true then of the LDS Sacrament.  It is "sanctified"- "made holy" for those who partake of it, to be in remembrance of the body of Christ- that's DC  20 77

The words and context make it so.

I have a feeling that is not going to work for you, but it works for me.  ;)

It is similar to our belief in "human rights" and what is and is not a human right.   They are made real by beliefs and the pronouncement of the right courts etc.

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Well said Mike, but don't you be throwing off on hillbillies. Hillbillies, like anybody else, might have some real good natural qualities. It is no disqualification for grace and holiness to have been born a hillbilly. I don't know that Jesus didn't choose Galilean "hillbillies" to be His Apostles and the foundation after Himself, of His kingdom!

Cheers,

3DOP 

Exactly

It is a culture like all others.

You live where you were born and learn how to survive from your parents with skills that have been around for hundreds of years, and those skills have allowed them to survive and thrive.

Then someone comes by and sees them as "deplorables" while they live completely fine lives, loving their kids and families, and providing for them in their own ways.

Such is the way for the elitist bullies of the world.  They need to put down others to exercise power over them which makes feel better for their pathetic values.   :)

Edited by mfbukowski
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30 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Exactly

It is a culture like all others.

You live where you were born and learn how to survive from your parents with skills that have been around for hundreds of years, and those skills have allowed them to survive and thrive.

Then someone comes by and sees them as "deplorables" while they live completely fine lives, loving their kids and families, and providing for them in their own ways.

Such is the way for the elitist bullies of the world.  They need to put down others to exercise power over them which makes feel better for their pathetic values.   :)

Trust me, hillbillies dont care what people think of them, their very proud people and for good reason. The word "deplorables" is worn as a badge of honor. Im one generation removed from being a certified hillbilly living in the deepest holler of Kentucky. My grandpa moved to where we live now because he shot a fellow shine runner with a shell full of rock salt, and they were going to kill him so he moved the whole family. My mom didn't have running water in the house till they moved here,  she would tell us stories of backing their truck up to a spring on the side of a mountain and filling buckets for their weekly water. My dad's side is almost as hillbilly. My dad's family converted to the church 10 years before my mom's family got here and that's how they met, my moms family needed help and the church pitched in and a member rented them a room for a few months. She converted and they had 6 kids. I'm what you call a "surfin hillbilly " atleast that's what my wife calls me. I put waders on in the morning and fish for an hour, lay shingles all day, go to the beach and surf for about an hour, then come home and take care of my chickens. So you see, I'm confused and still haven't figured out what I truly am🤣🤣. But dont think hillbillies are innocent. They cant stand the "elites" anymore than the elites can stand the hillbillies. CAN WEE ALL JUST GET ALONG!🤣!🤣. Anyways, I'm done, I'm tired of typing the word hillbillies. Peace out.

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3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Trust me, hillbillies dont care what people think of them, their very proud people and for good reason. The word "deplorables" is worn as a badge of honor. Im one generation removed from being a certified hillbilly living in the deepest holler of Kentucky. My grandpa moved to where we live now because he shot a fellow shine runner with a shell full of rock salt, and they were going to kill him so he moved the whole family. My mom didn't have running water in the house till they moved here,  she would tell us stories of backing their truck up to a spring on the side of a mountain and filling buckets for their weekly water. My dad's side is almost as hillbilly. My dad's family converted to the church 10 years before my mom's family got here and that's how they met, my moms family needed help and the church pitched in and a member rented them a room for a few months. She converted and they had 6 kids. I'm what you call a "surfin hillbilly " atleast that's what my wife calls me. I put waders on in the morning and fish for an hour, lay shingles all day, go to the beach and surf for about an hour, then come home and take care of my chickens. So you see, I'm confused and still haven't figured out what I truly am🤣🤣. But dont think hillbillies are innocent. They cant stand the "elites" anymore than the elites can stand the hillbillies. CAN WEE ALL JUST GET ALONG!🤣!🤣. Anyways, I'm done, I'm tired of typing the word hillbillies. Peace out.

Ever been to French Lick In. ?

 

 

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5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Ever been to French Lick In. ?

 

 

Hey!!! That's private! That's something I only talk about with my wife🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

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5 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Hey!!! That's private! That's something I only talk about with my wife🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

No seriously it's a town near Louisville, where I was working on a deal on the Westbaden Springs hotel a hundred years ago, possibly in your neck of the woods 

Just clarifying for the mods

;)

Not important, just being sociable  :)

 

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2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No seriously it's a town near Louisville, where I was working on a deal on the Westbaden Springs hotel a hundred years ago, possibly in your neck of the woods 

Just clarifying for the mods

;)

Not important, just being sociable  :)

 

That was supposed to be a joke, sorry I have a weird sense of humor. The only thing I know about French Lick is Larry Bird (the hick from french lick) lived there. And I actually dont live near there, I was saying how my mom came from Kentucky and she was truly a hillbilly. She actually lived in a 200sq. Ft. house, in a holler.  To this day she sees herself as a hillbilly and is darn proud of it, as she should be. When my mom was 19 I think, they moved to the coast where we live now. She converted to the church. So me and my siblings joke that since we're the first generation of our hillbilly family to be born in a city of over 800,000, we're part hillbilly because of our families past, but also part surfer bumbs because we live to go to the beach. It's quite an odd combination 🤣. The surfer bumb part of me lives for the ocean and cant stand country music. While the hillbilly part of me raises chickens and hunts for most of our meat. 

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27 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

That was supposed to be a joke, sorry I have a weird sense of humor. The only thing I know about French Lick is Larry Bird (the hick from french lick) lived there. And I actually dont live near there, I was saying how my mom came from Kentucky and she was truly a hillbilly. She actually lived in a 200sq. Ft. house, in a holler.  To this day she sees herself as a hillbilly and is darn proud of it, as she should be. When my mom was 19 I think, they moved to the coast where we live now. She converted to the church. So me and my siblings joke that since we're the first generation of our hillbilly family to be born in a city of over 800,000, we're part hillbilly because of our families past, but also part surfer bumbs because we live to go to the beach. It's quite an odd combination 🤣. The surfer bumb part of me lives for the ocean and cant stand country music. While the hillbilly part of me raises chickens and hunts for most of our meat. 

My great-grandma grew up in Kentucky and was pregnant or had her daughter (my grandma) when she met the missionaries serving there. She converted and wouldn't marry my grandma's bio dad because he wouldn't convert. Obviously, they weren't married when she got pregnant. He was some high ranking colonel or something. But I named my son after him, which hopefully was okay and he was a good man.

She came to Fayette Utah by train with my grandma who was three at the time, all alone and then married a member there and had four more children (one of those children is a member of this very board's mother whom I happen to have found out the connection through discussion). I've always been proud of these ancestors in Louisville, Kentucky.

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On 1/10/2021 at 3:04 PM, 3DOP said:

Interesting. You are clearly familiar with Bp. Barron than I am. He is an auxiliary bishop of Los Angeles I think.

Closer to LDS positions on many points? More points than a Traditional Catholic like me? For the last 25 years, it has been evident to me that the Catholic Church and the CoJCoLDS have much in common. I would not be disappointed if, like me, Bp. Barron would be seen as close on many of your positions. I have seen you praise his explanantion of the Catholic Eucharist without hearing anything bad from my usual sources, which keep up with what is going on in the Novus Ordo wing, to indicate that Bp. Barron  is unorthodox in regards to his view of the Holy Eucharist. For the sake of future discussions here, perhaps I should familiarize myself.

But as to your main question, there are many conservative Catholics who approve of the New Order of Mass (Novus Ordo Missae), and who defend all post Vatican II policy and teaching. They would deny that there is an emergency in the Church of such consequence as to legitimize the invocation of statutes in canon law outlining what steps may be taken in a time of crisis or emergency. Canon law sometimes excuses priests or bishops from strict adherence to normal procedures of exercising their offices. This allows a priest to act outside the diocese in which he is incardinated, for instance, when he might come across an auto accident, and a dying victim is asking for the Sacraments of the Dying. Traditional Catholics are those who have believed that it had become necessary in the first post Vatican II generation, for the preservation of the Catholic faith, that a handful of alarmed priests and bishops should band together to provide life-giving Sacraments that were being denied to the faithful. Instead, the Old Rites were said to be unlawful. Never in the history of the Eastern or Western churches had anyone attempted such a rupture of what had always been organic development of the liturgical rites. At the same time, it has become increasingly clear that the new rites (Novus Ordo), if valid, carry significant defects, and the evil fruits of Vatican II seem plain and clear.    

Your question seems to imply that there are no conservative "Novus Ordos". There are. My daughter and her family are conservative Novus Ordo Catholics. (She conceded recently that she can see that the Old Rite of Mass is "better".) Hah! Good enough! Almost there. Conservative Novus Ordo families seem to stagnate in sterility, or move on to Tradition, where there are abundant vocations, schools, and young people everywhere. Of course, Traditional Catholicism has always been a home for sinners, and we are not immune. No one should claim that we have a corner on holiness. But there are good fruits. Growth. Good wheat with the chaff. Statistics bare out that Novus Ordo Catholicism has the appearance of being for the aged, while the children and grandchildren of the old have long ago abandoned a shrinking Church, that never gave them the fullness of the faith.

I hope my long answer does not bore you, or serve as a distraction. I started to write a bunch more and stopped. But your question was unanswerable! There is no dichotomy between conservative and Novus Ordo, and I am thankful for a sizable minority of conservative Novus Ordo Catholic faithful, and what is reduced to a handful of almost insignificant minority of conservative Novus Ordo bishops and priests. I would think Bp. Barron might be considered one of those in the minority who defend traditional Catholic morality and theology without imposing their politics upon the Gospel, and most importantly, without admitting that there is a crisis in the Catholic Church. It is above all necessary for the most conservative Novus Ordo Catholic to deny that there is any rupture between Traditional Catholic morality, worship, and theology, with what has appeared since the 1960's.  

Okay, I stop.

Rory

Wow, I am then woefully ignorant on the changes and terminology.

 To me there were traditional Catholics who kept the Tridentine Mass and then the others who kept up with the new liturgy called Novus Ordo. Confusing!

 I love Barron  because he uses the old terminology with new ideas. He essentially takes the vocabulary from Rorty and James but speaks about Catholic tradition using non traditional vocabularies to make what I call "substance theology" easy.

  He uses Aquinas's words in a Rorty /James context.

Pretty slick.

 I'm figuring out how to do that with Mormons

Edited by mfbukowski
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On 1/12/2021 at 7:14 AM, nuclearfuels said:

You guys had tables?

8P

Well.... actually they were stacked up cardboard boxes.

The cool kids got the ones that had beer logos on 'em.  ;)

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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