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Sealing Policies


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5 hours ago, 2BizE said:

According to the church handbook of instruction, the new twins would be sealed to your daughter’s  first husband, and not her current husband, the father of the children.  
sounds crazy doesn’t it?

She was not sealed to her first husband.  

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5 hours ago, Ahab said:

I was referring to how a Mother can choose to be loosed from her sealing to her children if she were to ever want such a thing or if she were to see it as in the best interest of her children so that her children could be sealed to another woman as their Mother. The spirit of adoption is alive and well in heaven, within particular parameters.

Children have their own rights, too, and may choose to be sealed to another woman as their Mother... if the Mother consents and/or if it is approved by the powers that be of God.

Do you have a source or reference to back this up?

M.

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12 hours ago, Maureen said:
18 hours ago, Ahab said:

I was referring to how a Mother can choose to be loosed from her sealing to her children if she were to ever want such a thing or if she were to see it as in the best interest of her children so that her children could be sealed to another woman as their Mother. The spirit of adoption is alive and well in heaven, within particular parameters.

Children have their own rights, too, and may choose to be sealed to another woman as their Mother... if the Mother consents and/or if it is approved by the powers that be of God.

Do you have a source or reference to back this up?

Children don't have to be loosed from their sealing to their mother. The main point of the sealing ordinance is that we are all sealed in to the patriarchal family of God, regardless of who our mother is.

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20 hours ago, Calm said:

Then it would not be just the mother that could do that, but the father as well...and I am not sure that can actually happen.  I have never heard of a child-parents sealing being cancelled.

Example:  A couple gets sealed in the temple, has children, and then later the woman divorces her husband and leaves the Church... thereby losing/forfeiting all blessings she once had as a member of the Church including former sealings to her husband and children... and then after that the man gets married and sealed to another woman while his former wife nonchalantly agrees to allow her former husband's new wife to legally adopt and be sealed to her children... the children she had and was formerly sealed to with her former husband.  Nonchalantly because she now thinks a sealing is just a religious ceremony without any real value and she is no longer interested in being the "Mother" of her own biological children.

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37 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Example:  A couple gets sealed in the temple, has children, and then later the woman divorces her husband and leaves the Church... thereby losing/forfeiting all blessings she once had as a member of the Church including former sealings to her husband and children... and then after that the man gets married and sealed to another woman while his former wife nonchalantly agrees to allow her former husband's new wife to legally adopt and be sealed to her children... the children she had and was formerly sealed to with her former husband.  Nonchalantly because she now thinks a sealing is just a religious ceremony without any real value and she is no longer interested in being the "Mother" of her own biological children.

This can also apply if the Father is the one to leave and gives permission for the step father to adopt and be sealed to the children.

M.

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11 minutes ago, Maureen said:

This can also apply if the Father is the one to leave and gives permission for the step father to adopt and be sealed to the children.

M.

Sure, of course.

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Example:  A couple gets sealed in the temple, has children, and then later the woman divorces her husband and leaves the Church... thereby losing/forfeiting all blessings she once had as a member of the Church including former sealings to her husband and children... and then after that the man gets married and sealed to another woman while his former wife nonchalantly agrees to allow her former husband's new wife to legally adopt and be sealed to her children... the children she had and was formerly sealed to with her former husband.  Nonchalantly because she now thinks a sealing is just a religious ceremony without any real value and she is no longer interested in being the "Mother" of her own biological children.

Please provide your source that states that if a woman divorces and/or leaves the church, her sealing to her children no longer exists. 

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12 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Status of Children When a Sealing Is Canceled or Revoked
Children who are born in the covenant or sealed to parents remain so even if the sealing of the parents is later (1) canceled or (2) revoked by the withdrawal or resignation of Church membership of either parent.  (Church handbook)

Children never lose their sealing status because of what someone else does. They are still sealed into the patriarchal family of God in heaven.

Good to know.  I did not know that.  Now I do.

Your statement regarding what is stated in the handbook is not correct, though.  The sealing status of children may change, depending on who is being sealed to them and whether or not that sealing is loosed.  Think of adoption cases.

Edited by Ahab
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30 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Good to know.  I did not know that.  Now I do.

Your statement regarding what is stated in the handbook is not correct, though.  The sealing status of children may change, depending on who is being sealed to them and whether or not that sealing is loosed.  Think of adoption cases.

Adopted or Foster Children Who Are Living:
"Living children who are born in the covenant or have been sealed to parents cannot be sealed to any other parents unless the First Presidency gives approval. "(Church Handbook)

Children can never be loosed from being sealed, but with FP approval who they are sealed to can change.

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20 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Adopted or Foster Children Who Are Living:
"Living children who are born in the covenant or have been sealed to parents cannot be sealed to any other parents unless the First Presidency gives approval. "(Church Handbook)

Children can never be loosed from being sealed, but with FP approval who they are sealed to can change.

Interesting, okay, so apparently children are not loosed from their sealings to parents but they can be sealed to other additional parents.

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2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Good to know.  I did not know that.  Now I do.

Your statement regarding what is stated in the handbook is not correct, though.  The sealing status of children may change, depending on who is being sealed to them and whether or not that sealing is loosed.  Think of adoption cases.

So, you actually don’t have a source for your previous statement regarding a divorced woman, correct?

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12 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

So, you actually don’t have a source for your previous statement regarding a divorced woman, correct?

It wasn't the idea that a woman was divorced that tripped me up.  It was the fact that people usually lose most if not all of their Church-related blessings when they leave the Church.  Apparently their sealing to their children is something they can keep if they want it, courtesy of the Church that made that possible.

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On 1/2/2021 at 8:05 PM, esodije said:

I have a question about sealings. My daughter, who first married a non-member and had two children by him, later married (civilly) a member who had two children by his first wife (to whom he had been sealed in the temple) before divorcing her. Now they have had twins together.

I know that, typically, (a) a man can’t ask unilaterally for a sealing cancellation from a prior wife, (b) that the woman can ask for such a cancellation, but (c) only when she has imminent plans to be sealed to another man. My question has to do with the twin babies my daughter has had now with her second husband: are they considered to be born in the covenant of his first marriage? If so, and my daughter decides to go to the temple this year and be sealed to her husband, will there be any special procedure for sealing the twins to them?

The following only addresses part of your situation.

My late wife was sealed to her first husband before he divorced her and got excommunicated. They had seven children who were either sealed to them or were born in the covenant after they were sealed in the temple (she was a non-member when they married, but converted later).

She obtained a sealing cancellation from the First Presidency (the cancellation was signed by Spencer W. Kimball), and in the letter he addressed the question of the sealings of the children by saying that the husband/wife sealing cancellation did not affect the status of the children, as they retained the right to eternal parentage, regardless of what happened to the parents to whom they were sealed.

However things work out in the end, it will all be according to God's will.

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3 hours ago, JAHS said:

Status of Children When a Sealing Is Canceled or Revoked
Children who are born in the covenant or sealed to parents remain so even if the sealing of the parents is later (1) canceled or (2) revoked by the withdrawal or resignation of Church membership of either parent.  (Church handbook)

Children never lose their sealing status because of what someone else does. They are still sealed into the patriarchal family of God in heaven.

Or as President Kimball wrote in my late wife's sealing cancellation letter, the children have the right to eternal parentage regardless of what happens to their parents.

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3 hours ago, Ahab said:

Good to know.  I did not know that.  Now I do.

Your statement regarding what is stated in the handbook is not correct, though.  The sealing status of children may change, depending on who is being sealed to them and whether or not that sealing is loosed.  Think of adoption cases.

Well, no. Husband/wife sealings can be cancelled. But once a child sealing is performed, there is no ordinance cancelling it -- unless there is, and I've not heard of it. 

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1 hour ago, Ahab said:

It wasn't the idea that a woman was divorced that tripped me up.  It was the fact that people usually lose most if not all of their Church-related blessings when they leave the Church.  Apparently their sealing to their children is something they can keep if they want it, courtesy of the Church that made that possible.

So, once again, there is no actual source to what you previously stated?  You just came up with that “teaching” in your own mind, correct?

Why was it so hard for you to say that? After reading your original claim, it took me about two seconds to find the correct information on the church website to confirm that you were wrong. 
 

Your explanation here also shows that you still don’t grasp the entirety of how dealings work. 
 

I recommend the church website for things you don’t understand. 

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I just have to say how fascinating this thread is, especially in showing how our views of family sealings have changed since the early days of the Church.

Edited by JLHPROF
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16 hours ago, Raingirl said:

So, once again, there is no actual source to what you previously stated?  You just came up with that “teaching” in your own mind, correct?

Why was it so hard for you to say that? After reading your original claim, it took me about two seconds to find the correct information on the church website to confirm that you were wrong. 
 

Your explanation here also shows that you still don’t grasp the entirety of how dealings work. 
 

I recommend the church website for things you don’t understand. 

Would you be so kind as to just tell me if you have or have ever had this understanding:  When someone leaves the Church, and is then no longer a member of it, they lose all of the blessings they received while in the Church and any ordinance work previously recorded on their Church record is then deleted from the Church archives.  And that if that former member wants those blessings restored they must start at the beginning as if they never were a member, doing all of their ordinance work all over again, starting with baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost again, culminating in their sealing ordinance work.

I think most members have that understanding, as I once did before I recently saw here that former members get to keep their sealings to their children, if they have been sealed to their children, while the children also retain their sealing to their parents, if they have been sealed to their parents.  You do understand that a sealing is a two-way relationship, don't you, so that if one party keeps their sealing to the other party that means there is a sealing between both parties?

Also, just FYI, when people understand something in a particular way they don't usually think they don't understand.  They think they understand whatever it is that they understand.  So someone would have no reason to try to understand something they think they already understand.

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1 minute ago, Ahab said:

Would you be so kind as to just tell me if you have or have ever had this understanding:  When someone leaves the Church, and is then no longer a member of it, they lose all of the blessings they received while in the Church and any ordinance work previously recorded on their Church record is then deleted from the Church archives.  And that if that former member wants those blessings restored they must start at the beginning as if they never were a member, doing all of their ordinance work all over again, starting with baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost again, culminating in their sealing ordinance work.

I think most members have that understanding, as I once did before I recently saw here that former members get to keep their sealings to their children, if they have been sealed to their children, while the children also retain their sealing to their parents, if they have been sealed to their parents.  You do understand that a sealing is a two-way relationship, don't you, so that if one party keeps their sealing to the other party that means there is a sealing between both parties?

Also, just FYI, when people understand something in a particular way they don't usually think they don't understand.  They think they understand whatever it is that they understand.  So someone would have no reason to try to understand something they think they already understand.

Your (mis)understanding of child/parent dealings is not shared by most members. 
 

You have no source for the statement you originally posted about how these sealings work.  It would have taken you seconds to find the information on the church website. You know, the source for correct teachings. That would be the logical thing to do. At least, it would be for someone interested in accuracy regarding church teachings. 
 

Have you even bothered to go to the church website? You’ve clearly demonstrated in several posts that you still don’t have a complete grasp of sealings. 

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4 minutes ago, Raingirl said:

Your (mis)understanding of child/parent dealings is not shared by most members. 
 

You have no source for the statement you originally posted about how these sealings work.  It would have taken you seconds to find the information on the church website. You know, the source for correct teachings. That would be the logical thing to do. At least, it would be for someone interested in accuracy regarding church teachings. 
 

Have you even bothered to go to the church website? You’ve clearly demonstrated in several posts that you still don’t have a complete grasp of sealings. 

Other people have already quoted from Church teachings on the Church website in the Church handbook and I am pretty sure that I now understand what the Church teaches on this issue, so I now have no reason to try to understand because I already understand what I understand.

And I now no longer consider you to be kind.

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2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Would you be so kind as to just tell me if you have or have ever had this understanding:  When someone leaves the Church, and is then no longer a member of it, they lose all of the blessings they received while in the Church and any ordinance work previously recorded on their Church record is then deleted from the Church archives.  And that if that former member wants those blessings restored they must start at the beginning as if they never were a member, doing all of their ordinance work all over again, starting with baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost again, culminating in their sealing ordinance work.

If a person's membership is terminated, their record is removed from the active rolls, but the record is still retained. Nothing is ever deleted. This is, among other things, to facilitate former members who wish to return, and it prevents known abusers ("annotated" record) from returning with a clean slate. Termination of membership does nullify all ordinances and the blessings thereof, but children always retain the blessings of parent/child sealings regardless of their parent(s) status.

If a person whose membership was terminated returns to the church, they must be baptized and confirmed. Everything else -- priesthood, temple ordinances, and all sealings -- are restored with a single ordinance called "Restoration of Blessings." That one ordinance covers everything post-confirmation.

More details are in the General Handbook. Search for "Restoration of Blessings." There's a whole section on returning to the church.

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16 minutes ago, cfi said:

If a person's membership is terminated, their record is removed from the active rolls, but the record is still retained. Nothing is ever deleted. This is, among other things, to facilitate former members who wish to return, and it prevents known abusers ("annotated" record) from returning with a clean slate. Termination of membership does nullify all ordinances and the blessings thereof, but children always retain the blessings of parent/child sealings regardless of their parent(s) status.

If a person whose membership was terminated returns to the church, they must be baptized and confirmed. Everything else -- priesthood, temple ordinances, and all sealings -- are restored with a single ordinance called "Restoration of Blessings." That one ordinance covers everything post-confirmation.

More details are in the General Handbook. Search for "Restoration of Blessings." There's a whole section on returning to the church.

That feels true and I thank you for spelling that out so clearly.  I did have a misunderstanding and I think that misunderstanding is common among most Church members.  The fact that children remain sealed to their parents also means parents remain sealed to their children even if or when the parent is excommunicated from the Church and I was not aware of that and I think it is very generous for the Lord to allow those excommunicated parents to retain their sealing to their children even though those parents no longer have a valid baptism or the gift of the Holy Ghost or any priesthood authority to act in the name of the Lord.

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One of my older brothers was sealed to his first wife, albeit on the second go-round, and then they divorced a second time. She went inactive and later married someone else. Given that she no longer puts any stock in temple ordinances, she’s never asked for a sealing cancellation. My brother did, however, have to get input from the first wife before he could be sealed to his current wife. She didn’t have to consent, however—I think it’s just a matter of finding out whether she alleged abuse on his part or a failure to pay alimony or child support.

incidentally, my father was sealed to two women, also—and the first wife, something of a wild child all her life, never had a reason to request a sealing cancellation. I’m  a product of the second marriage, and I can say this: my mother, who will turn 100 years old in a couple of weeks, has always experienced self-doubt over what I believe Carol Lynn Pearson called “eternal polygamy,” a woman’s having to live with the thought, if not the actual practice during mortality, of having to share her husband’s affections with other wives. As Pearson has written, it’s damned harmful!

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16 hours ago, esodije said:

One of my older brothers was sealed to his first wife, albeit on the second go-round, and then they divorced a second time. She went inactive and later married someone else. Given that she no longer puts any stock in temple ordinances, she’s never asked for a sealing cancellation. My brother did, however, have to get input from the first wife before he could be sealed to his current wife. She didn’t have to consent, however—I think it’s just a matter of finding out whether she alleged abuse on his part or a failure to pay alimony or child support.

incidentally, my father was sealed to two women, also—and the first wife, something of a wild child all her life, never had a reason to request a sealing cancellation. I’m  a product of the second marriage, and I can say this: my mother, who will turn 100 years old in a couple of weeks, has always experienced self-doubt over what I believe Carol Lynn Pearson called “eternal polygamy,” a woman’s having to live with the thought, if not the actual practice during mortality, of having to share her husband’s affections with other wives. As Pearson has written, it’s damned harmful!

Jealousy.  Selfishness.  Not wanting to share.  I've known many a man who has felt the same feelings when their woman/wife starts sharing her affections with her children when before that he was the only one that got all of that.

The only problem I have with a man having more than one wife is when the man goes looking for another woman when our Lord has told him to not go looking for another woman and that he should be totally devoted to the one woman/wife he has.

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