Tithing shakedown

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hi Scott,

That's a big question! I am curious as to the premise -- how much is this board a microcosm of your church, as you see it?

There are a wide range of views here, which I appreciate, and after all these years (8 now, I think), I like that I have a general feel on who is going to react how to certain topics (to wit, mfbukowski and his damn Rorty video, ha, which I love teasing him about). I'm glad this isn't an echo chamber, too, though it is interesting that criticisms from non-LDS posters has greatly diminished since I first started posting. I'm guessing for the more traditional LDS members, the criticisms from disaffected LDS can be irksome, but from strictly an outsider's point-of-view, it allows me to see where some fault lines are, which teaches me about both doctrinal and cultural issues in your faith. I also am grateful for the scholars that post, too. There is a kindness on this board that I appreciate. I'll mark that up to the quality of character of the posters and the good moderation that steps in when necessary. With so much ugliness on the internet, it's nice to have a place where lively, interesting, and civil discussion is to be had.

Back to your main question. Through all of this "you" is referring to LDS people, and not to Scott or anyone else in particular.

My overall impression of you as a people is very positive. I think you are a moral people trying to follow your faith and God's will. I think this applies to some of your disaffected members, too, (those who are sincere as opposed to those who are just looking for contention). There may be a tad of Puritanism in LDS thought sometimes -- c'mon, guys, talking about God over a good craft beer is wonderful!  

I'm also not quite sure what to make of your devotion to the temple, since I have little clue of what goes in there. My guess is what I've been told (covenants, sealings, proxy work, etc.) doesn't quite cover it, because that doesn't really describe ceremony and it isn't really controversial. I don't have an issue with you not disclosing what goes on, and I long ago decided not to look it up because of your beliefs and my respect for them, but it is certainly a unique part of your faith.

You have a great love of education and intellectual pursuits. Now, this view of mine could be skewed by the fact that those who are on the board are those who love conversations, arguments, scholarship, etc., but the LDS I've known in real life have been well educated and articulate.

You are VERY communal, meaning that you place great emphasis on community (family and social groups). My first time attending your services I was overwhelmed with all the hand shakes and greetings! This social aspect I think also puts an emphasis on speaking at your services -- lots of talks, lessons, discussions. I can see how the community service you offer flows from this communal ethos and how that ethos is rooted in your doctrine of extended family sealings. It doesn't seem, though, that there is much room for those who feel a vocation towards some sort of monastic spirituality -- silent retreats, contemplative prayer, traditional mystical experience, renouncing the world. Perhaps this is something that will develop as time goes by, in accordance with your doctrine of course. And perhaps I bring this up because this is a big part of my Catholic faith, and it is supported explicitly within the Catholic Church.

You do seem to be American-centric (as Duncan and Hamba sometimes point out), but I'm not sure if that has to do with the sample size of this board or some other factor. I was initially intrigued by the LDS faith because it seemed like a truly American religion: it was founded in America, the Book of Mormon is about America, America is the promised land, the New Jerusalem will be in America, Garden of Eden was in America, the American constitution is inspired, etc. I know this is political, and I hope the mods forgive it, but there is also a strong streak of American conservatism. I wonder what the political views of LDS outside of the USA are like? Now, since I run in traditional Catholic circles, the most "conservative" among them speak glowingly of monarchism and in theological terms, too, so I suppose I can put up with your conservatism  

There's of course much more I could say, but this is what comes to mind right now. Thanks for being interested in my views. I'd be interested in what 3DOP thinks, since he's been on the board much longer than I.

I'll end by saying that despite some very strong doctrinal differences, there are many ties that bind us together. I agree with 3DOP that if traditional Christianity (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox) isn't Christ's Church, then there would have to be a restoration of some sort, and from what I know you are the biggest claimants to that. So we can both sigh at the impertinence of the protestants 😁 As I mentioned before, your community service is admirable, and I love how our two churches so often work together to do good.

I chose the name MiserereNobis because it means "have mercy on us." May God have mercy on all of us!

Peace be with you,

Jesse

 

 

I'm so glad for more information about you, I've loved reading your insight on things, but for some strange reason, I thought you were LDS before Catholicism. 

[PacMan]

On 12/29/2020 at 8:17 AM, Doctrine 612 said:

Maby shakedown was the wrong word but what would you call it.

I talked to the bishop over the phone , explained how it works and why I prefer to do it this way,(I don’t need people knowing how much money I make), then he drives over to my house, asking if he can see my receipt. I told him no and he got bent out of shape.

 

 I feel bad for you guys that had people show up last day of the year.

we chose November 1st as our last day to pay tithing. Any thing made in December we rolled over into next year’s numbers.

 

 

I wouldn’t have done that. But he had every right to do so. If you said no, he would have also been entitled to take your temple recommend. 

[Scott Lloyd]

7 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Hi Scott,

That's a big question! I am curious as to the premise -- how much is this board a microcosm of your church, as you see it?

There are a wide range of views here, which I appreciate, and after all these years (8 now, I think), I like that I have a general feel on who is going to react how to certain topics (to wit, mfbukowski and his damn Rorty video, ha, which I love teasing him about). I'm glad this isn't an echo chamber, too, though it is interesting that criticisms from non-LDS posters has greatly diminished since I first started posting. I'm guessing for the more traditional LDS members, the criticisms from disaffected LDS can be irksome, but from strictly an outsider's point-of-view, it allows me to see where some fault lines are, which teaches me about both doctrinal and cultural issues in your faith. I also am grateful for the scholars that post, too. There is a kindness on this board that I appreciate. I'll mark that up to the quality of character of the posters and the good moderation that steps in when necessary. With so much ugliness on the internet, it's nice to have a place where lively, interesting, and civil discussion is to be had.

Back to your main question. Through all of this "you" is referring to LDS people, and not to Scott or anyone else in particular.

My overall impression of you as a people is very positive. I think you are a moral people trying to follow your faith and God's will. I think this applies to some of your disaffected members, too, (those who are sincere as opposed to those who are just looking for contention). There may be a tad of Puritanism in LDS thought sometimes -- c'mon, guys, talking about God over a good craft beer is wonderful!  

I'm also not quite sure what to make of your devotion to the temple, since I have little clue of what goes in there. My guess is what I've been told (covenants, sealings, proxy work, etc.) doesn't quite cover it, because that doesn't really describe ceremony and it isn't really controversial. I don't have an issue with you not disclosing what goes on, and I long ago decided not to look it up because of your beliefs and my respect for them, but it is certainly a unique part of your faith.

You have a great love of education and intellectual pursuits. Now, this view of mine could be skewed by the fact that those who are on the board are those who love conversations, arguments, scholarship, etc., but the LDS I've known in real life have been well educated and articulate.

You are VERY communal, meaning that you place great emphasis on community (family and social groups). My first time attending your services I was overwhelmed with all the hand shakes and greetings! This social aspect I think also puts an emphasis on speaking at your services -- lots of talks, lessons, discussions. I can see how the community service you offer flows from this communal ethos and how that ethos is rooted in your doctrine of extended family sealings. It doesn't seem, though, that there is much room for those who feel a vocation towards some sort of monastic spirituality -- silent retreats, contemplative prayer, traditional mystical experience, renouncing the world. Perhaps this is something that will develop as time goes by, in accordance with your doctrine of course. And perhaps I bring this up because this is a big part of my Catholic faith, and it is supported explicitly within the Catholic Church.

You do seem to be American-centric (as Duncan and Hamba sometimes point out), but I'm not sure if that has to do with the sample size of this board or some other factor. I was initially intrigued by the LDS faith because it seemed like a truly American religion: it was founded in America, the Book of Mormon is about America, America is the promised land, the New Jerusalem will be in America, Garden of Eden was in America, the American constitution is inspired, etc. I know this is political, and I hope the mods forgive it, but there is also a strong streak of American conservatism. I wonder what the political views of LDS outside of the USA are like? Now, since I run in traditional Catholic circles, the most "conservative" among them speak glowingly of monarchism and in theological terms, too, so I suppose I can put up with your conservatism  

There's of course much more I could say, but this is what comes to mind right now. Thanks for being interested in my views. I'd be interested in what 3DOP thinks, since he's been on the board much longer than I.

I'll end by saying that despite some very strong doctrinal differences, there are many ties that bind us together. I agree with 3DOP that if traditional Christianity (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox) isn't Christ's Church, then there would have to be a restoration of some sort, and from what I know you are the biggest claimants to that. So we can both sigh at the impertinence of the protestants 😁 As I mentioned before, your community service is admirable, and I love how our two churches so often work together to do good.

I chose the name MiserereNobis because it means "have mercy on us." May God have mercy on all of us!

Peace be with you,

Jesse

 

 

Thank you very much indeed for your remarks, Jesse. 
 

When I posed the question to you, I was confident your response would be candid, thoughtful and astute. You did not disappoint. 
 

Your comment about “monastic spirituality” has caused some thought on my part, if not a touch of what the late Swedish cleric Krister Stendhal called “holy envy.”  I think we do need more of that. Recognizing that I might not be fully grasping your meaning, I’ll say that I do believe there is considerable scope for such a thing within our church’s teachings and the very frequent exhortation we are given to study and prayerfully contemplate the scriptures. We are taught that scripture reading, more than just intellectually edifying, can be and very often is a catalyst for divine communication, what we call “personal revelation.” We need to do more of it and do it more earnestly.  From the time they are very small, our children are taught to sing a song called “Search, Ponder and Pray” (pardon the absence of the Oxford comma there 😉). It refers to scripture study and meditation accompanied by prayer and the resulting reception of guidance through the Holy Spirit. 
 

I appreciate very much the kindly spirit of tolerance and understanding that attends your interaction with us here. I’m sure others do as well. 

[The Nehor]

On 12/29/2020 at 10:58 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I've shared this experience on the forum before (though I can't find a link to it ...), but when I was last serving in the bishopric, the executive secretary booked a married couple in for temple recommend renewals with me. I interviewed the husband first. All good. Then I met with the wife. When it came time to ask about the law chastity, I strongly felt impressed that her 'yes' answer was not accurate. I had nothing material behind this, but the feeling was persistent, so I did take the opportunity to ask a couple of general follow-up questions. No, she insisted; everything was fine. So I signed the recommend.

Immediately afterwards, I contacted the bishop and told him what had happened, and then I contacted the stake president and shared my impression and asked that the counsellor who would meet with her exercise care in this area as well. He did so and reported back that she had affirmed her commitment to the law of chastity.

Just a short time later, she threw her husband out of the house and moved her boyfriend in.

I was really hoping my ex had finally settled down. Oh well.

[The Nehor]

On 12/29/2020 at 11:51 PM, mfbukowski said:

Just plan for it every year as part of the calling, and live with it. It's just part if the fun in dealing with humans.  You get used to it after a while 

I’ve been in and out of the clerk’s office for over a decade and I don’t think I will get to that point in another decade or two but God is a God of miracles I guess.

[The Nehor]

14 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Strange, as the IRS counts the deduction as the day made, not deposited. I do this all the time.

Yeah, but they will only get the deposit date on the form thing we give out. If it is a check or something like it is easy to trace. When you bring in thousands in cash from who knows where there is less of a paper trail.

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, bsjkki said:

We take a salary and then we also take distributions. We pay tithing on the money that goes into our bank account. We have not had a losing year so I'm not sure how we would handle that. Tax returns don't really work well since it contains earning we don't see or have any control over. How do you tithe on money you don't have? As a salaried employee we usually would pay on gross but as a business owner, that did not work. If we live long enough to use our retirement and social security money, we will probably over tithe because I will pay on that as we use it since there is no accounting for the post-tithe and pre-tithe earnings at this point. Tithing threads can get really detailed for people but personally, I think a broad and simple assessment is best. There really is no need to overthink it. As a young couple we switched from net to gross because we were so poor we were resenting paying our tithing. So, we payed more and saw innumerable blessings. When we started our own business, I took it to the Lord and he let me know what to do.

I tithe the Social Security disbursements I receive, because over the course of my life I will have taken out substantially more than I “paid into the system”; most people do. 
 

Also, my former employer has paid Social Security taxes in my behalf. 

[Tacenda]

I remember years ago working for a credit union and having members get loans to pay tithing. I use to cringe, thinking now they have to pay interest as well. 

[AtlanticMike]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I remember years ago working for a credit union and having members get loans to pay tithing. I use to cringe, thinking now they have to pay interest as well. 

What!!!! Seriously,  I've never heard of that. Dont take this the wrong but is that a Utah thing? I've always heard that Utah is a little more hardcore, could be wrong, since I have no experience with utah Mormonism. But wow, I would never take out a loan, I have paid a little extra every so often to get caught up, but i guess if you believe that strongly, the money has to come from somewhere.

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

What!!!! Seriously,  I've never heard of that. Dont take this the wrong but is that a Utah thing? I've always heard that Utah is a little more hardcore, could be wrong, since I have no experience with utah Mormonism. But wow, I would never take out a loan, I have paid a little extra every so often to get caught up, but i guess if you believe that strongly, the money has to come from somewhere.

I don't know. I have a hard time believing that people gave "gotta pay my tithing, need this loan!" as the reason for the loan. Or even bringing it up at all. 

I did have a man whose obstacle to having his disfellowshipment lifted was that he couldn't pay tithing because of a complicated chapter 13 bankruptcy involving a business and business partners (he couldn't spend money without a judge's authorization, and the judge wasn't likely to approve "charitable donations" with other obligations unmet). He ended up taking out a loan to pay off his portion of the debt (again, it was complicated), so that his expenditures were unencumbered and he could pay tithing (or anything else) without court oversight. 

[Scott Lloyd]

26 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

What!!!! Seriously,  I've never heard of that. Dont take this the wrong but is that a Utah thing? I've always heard that Utah is a little more hardcore, could be wrong, since I have no experience with utah Mormonism. But wow, I would never take out a loan, I have paid a little extra every so often to get caught up, but i guess if you believe that strongly, the money has to come from somewhere.

No, it’s not a Utah thing. It’s frowned upon here, as it is elsewhere. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

33 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I remember years ago working for a credit union and having members get loans to pay tithing. I use to cringe, thinking now they have to pay interest as well. 

That strikes me as unwise as well. They should have seen their bishop to get money management counseling (or some other form of assistance if needed) and possibly some forgiveness of tithing arrearages so they could start fresh and try to pay a full tithe from then into the future. 
 

But I do wonder why a customer would wander into a credit union and declare up front to a loan officer that he or she wanted to borrow money to pay tithing. That seems really weird to me. 
 

And to AtlanticMike, no, it’s not a Utah thing. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That strikes me as unwise as well. They should have seen their bishop to get money management counseling and possibly some forgiveness of tithing arrearages so they could start fresh and try to pay a full tithe from then into the future. 
 

But I do wonder why a customer would wander into a credit union and declare up front to a loan officer that he or she wanted to borrow money to pay tithing. That seems really weird to me. 
 

And to AtlanticMike, no, it’s not a Utah thing. 

No, it was there on paper. And according to the employee that I worked with it wasn't the first time. At the time it made an impression on me to pay tithing when we received our employment checks immediately rather than wait. 

[AtlanticMike]

24 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

What!!!! Seriously,  I've never heard of that. Dont take this the wrong but is that a Utah thing? I've always heard that Utah is a little more hardcore, could be wrong, since I have no experience with utah Mormonism. But wow, I would never take out a loan, I have paid a little extra every so often to get caught up, but i guess if you believe that strongly, the money has to come from somewhere.

Well tacenda, you are right, it does happen, I just read a couple stories of people taking out loans for tithing. I cant believe I've never even considered that people do that, it's never even occurred to me, no way i would do it, an unsecured loan would be atleast 12 to 30% depending on credit. 

[Tacenda]

28 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

What!!!! Seriously,  I've never heard of that. Dont take this the wrong but is that a Utah thing? I've always heard that Utah is a little more hardcore, could be wrong, since I have no experience with utah Mormonism. But wow, I would never take out a loan, I have paid a little extra every so often to get caught up, but i guess if you believe that strongly, the money has to come from somewhere.

This was a long time ago, so maybe it was more hardcore. Or it could be that this member wanted to attend their child's temple wedding. That's the only thing I can think of that would make me get a loan to pay tithing if it came to that. 

[AtlanticMike]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

This was a long time ago, so maybe it was more hardcore. Or it could be that this member wanted to attend their child's temple wedding. That's the only thing I can think of that would make me get a loan to pay tithing if it came to that. 

🤯🤯🤯🤯 I cant even respond to that. I hope that doesn't happen. I'm going back to work now.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

No, it was there on paper. And according to the employee that I worked with it wasn't the first time. At the time it made an impression on me to pay tithing when we received our employment checks immediately rather than wait. 

That’s a good practice. Now that we can pay it on line via the Church’s website, I pay it immediately on the day I receive the paycheck (or, technically the account deposit). 
 

But it strikes me as irresponsible for a lending institution to loan money to someone for the purpose of making a charitable donation — to the Church or anyone else. From the standpoint of the institution, the customer’s priority ought to be to meet personal obligations first before giving money away, no matter how worthy the cause. 
 

Lending money to someone who lacks money management skills is like giving money to someone who intends to use it to feed his cocaine habit. 

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

This was a long time ago, so maybe it was more hardcore. Or it could be that this member wanted to attend their child's temple wedding. That's the only thing I can think of that would make me get a loan to pay tithing if it came to that. 

It makes sense that might have been their motivation. 
 

I still think it irresponsible for an institution to loan money for that purpose. 

[Ahab]

On 12/29/2020 at 4:31 PM, katherine the great said:

Weirdo. 😂

If by "weirdo" you mean peculiar or a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints where all of us are unique and have our own unique personalities, then Yes I am and thank you for acknowledging that as a fellow or fellowess weirdo.

[Tacenda]

56 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That’s a good practice. Now that we can pay it on line via the Church’s website, I pay it immediately on the day I receive the paycheck (or, technically the account deposit). 
 

But it strikes me as irresponsible for a lending institution to loan money to someone for the purpose of making a charitable donation — to the Church or anyone else. From the standpoint of the institution, the customer’s priority ought to be to meet personal obligations first before giving money away, no matter how worthy the cause. 
 

Lending money to someone who lacks money management skills is like giving money to someone who intends to use it to feed his cocaine habit. 

This was at the U of U credit union in the early 80's. My boss didn't like LDS so maybe that is why it was brought up. She fired a super great returned missionary and eventually I was let go too. Because I started seeing some sketchy things and may have voiced my opinion. I was told I didn't cross sell enough and that was why I was being let go. 

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I remember years ago working for a credit union and having members get loans to pay tithing. I use to cringe, thinking now they have to pay interest as well. 

I’m a pretty moderate person but I’m fiscally very conservative. I feel like devout, temple going members should plan their budget around tithing and live strictly within their means so they don’t find themselves in that situation. Yes stuff happens but I don’t feel that sympathetic to someone who has to take out a loan to pay tithing. J Golden Kimble said something like: “I can tell you how to stay out of debt but I can’t tell you how to get out of debt once you’re there.” And he was speaking from experience.

[mfbukowski]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I’ve been in and out of the clerk’s office for over a decade and I don’t think I will get to that point in another decade or two but God is a God of miracles I guess.

At least you don't get to "help" with marital problems and deaths at 3 am

I had a psychotic and intellectually challenged teenager threatening his family, then running out of the house at midnight having no idea where he was or how to get home even if he wanted. Fun fun fun

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

At least you don't get to "help" with marital problems and deaths at 3 am

I had a psychotic and intellectually challenged teenager threatening his family, then running out of the house at midnight having no idea where he was or how to get home even if he wanted. Fun fun fun

A couple of months back I had to visit someone at 1 am and have to walk them through why and how they should turn themselves into the police. I thought I was just going to give a blessing. That was fun.

[rchorse]

I must just be a jerk. When I was Bishop and people wanted me to do things on holidays or do tithing on off days for personal reasons, my response was always no.

For a legitimate emergency, I would always drop everything and do whatever I could. But for habitual bad planning or people who thought their convenience was more important than me spending a holiday with my family, the answer was no.

I'm not a big fan of the mentality that the Bishop is at the beck and call of ward members.

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, rchorse said:

I must just be a jerk. When I was Bishop and people wanted me to do things on holidays or do tithing on off days for personal reasons, my response was always no.

For a legitimate emergency, I would always drop everything and do whatever I could. But for habitual bad planning or people who thought their convenience was more important than me spending a holiday with my family, the answer was no.

I'm not a big fan of the mentality that the Bishop is at the beck and call of ward members.

Cheers to you!  I think a bishop should act like a good father of his whole ward, teaching or at least trying to teach any and all of his ward members when he sees they need some teaching/correction... either personally or by delegation.