Scott Lloyd Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, Bob Crockett said: I'm sorry my jokes are so dry. I do respect your posts greatly. Sorry I missed the subtlety. Sometimes interacting on this board puts me on a hair trigger. Edited January 2, 2021 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
TheTanakas Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 On 1/1/2021 at 8:20 AM, teddyaware said: It’s interesting how so many of these ‘tempest in a teapot’ controversies can come to a quick and satisfactory resolution if one is simply aware of the facts. The prophet Joseph Smith himself testified in Doctrine and Covenants 129 that a deceased individual doesn’t necessarily have to be resurrected in order to ascend into heaven and mingle with the Holy Beings who reside there... 1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones— 2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory. (D&C 129) End of unnecessary controvery. What kind of beings were the sons of God in attendance at the premortal Council in Heaven? Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, TheTanakas said: What kind of beings were the sons of God in attendance at the premortal Council in Heaven? I think it fairly clear they were spirit beings. Is there some controversy about this? Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 On 1/1/2021 at 6:20 AM, teddyaware said: It’s interesting how so many of these ‘tempest in a teapot’ controversies can come to a quick and satisfactory resolution if one is simply aware of the facts. The prophet Joseph Smith himself testified in Doctrine and Covenants 129 that a deceased individual doesn’t necessarily have to be resurrected in order to ascend into heaven and mingle with the Holy Beings who reside there... 1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones— 2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory. (D&C 129) End of unnecessary controvery. I love it when a fact checker gets fact checked. 2 Link to comment
Teancum Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 On 12/28/2020 at 8:21 PM, JLHPROF said: Exactly why your opinion of the Church and how it compares doesn't really carry much weight. Atheist opinions on God are speaking from ignorance. Unless they actually have experienced God's influence. I don't claim to be an atheist. A skeptical seeker of truth is how I would define where I am at. As for "God's influence" I have had a number of powerful spiritual experiences at the time and for many years after interpreted them as "God's influence." I now interpret them indifferently based on new light, knowledge and understanding. As for my opinion it only really matters to me and anyone else willing to discuss, explore and challenge their dearly held biases which can come at great persona risk. Apparently you are not one of those. Link to comment
Teancum Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 On 12/29/2020 at 9:53 AM, The Nehor said: So you mean "cult" in the pejorative sense and not in the anthropological sense? No not in the pejorative sense. cult /kəlt/ Learn to pronounce noun a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. "the cult of St. Olaf" a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister. "a network of Satan-worshiping cults" a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing. "a cult of personality surrounding the leaders" Link to comment
teddyaware Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 49 minutes ago, TheTanakas said: What kind of beings were the sons of God in attendance at the premortal Council in Heaven? They were the spirit offspring (which is why they are called sons) of God; Clear evidence families are important to God. 1 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted January 2, 2021 Author Share Posted January 2, 2021 50 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I think it fairly clear they were spirit beings. Is there some controversy about this? 2 minutes ago, teddyaware said: They were the spirit offspring (which is why they are called sons) of God; Clear evidence families are important to God. I'd wager there were more than a few resurrected beings from previous creations too. At the very least Heavenly Father and Mother. 2 Link to comment
telnetd Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 On 1/2/2021 at 10:03 AM, Scott Lloyd said: I think it fairly clear they were spirit beings. Is there some controversy about this? "There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory" Are these spirit offspring a third type or do they classify as the second type? Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 20 hours ago, telnetd said: "There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory" Are these spirit offspring a third type or do they classify as the second type? I think you are ignoring the post-mortal context of that quotation. 1 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 21 hours ago, telnetd said: "There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory" Are these spirit offspring a third type or do they classify as the second type? The statement does not exclude other types of beings "There are two types of bears in the zoo" -Does not exclude giraffes from being in the zoo. 1 Link to comment
Ahab Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 On 1/3/2021 at 12:15 PM, telnetd said: "There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory" Are these spirit offspring a third type or do they classify as the second type? 1. people who are resurrected 2. people who are not resurrected Which other type would you be looking for? And by the way, heaven is a relative term and depends greatly upon your own point of view. Standing on this planet you can look into the sky... or heaven(s)... out there but if you were out there looking this way this planet would be part of the heaven(s). Link to comment
teddyaware Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 (edited) On 1/3/2021 at 3:15 PM, telnetd said: "There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory" Are these spirit offspring a third type or do they classify as the second type? Scott Lloyd is correct. The context of this quote is that the prophet Joseph Smith is speaking specifically of the two kinds of saved beings who can be found in the celestial kingdom after having passed through the portal of death on earth. The first group are those who have already been been resurrected from the dead and judged worthy to receive an inheritance in the celestial kingdom. The second group are the spirits of holy men who have also been judged worthy of receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom but who have not yet received the resurrection. The quote is only addressing those inheritors of heavenly glory who first passed through mortality here on earth; it does not at all address the spirit children of God in heaven who have not yet had the experience gaining a body and living in mortality. Because you apparently didn’t take notice the operative word inherit your perspective is way off. You are going to continue to stumble again and again because you’re attempting to play gotcha while having a poor understanding of Latter-Day Saint doctrine and theology. Edited January 5, 2021 by teddyaware 3 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 13 hours ago, Ahab said: 1. people who are resurrected 2. people who are not resurrected Which other type would you be looking for? There are more thing in heaven and earth than our dreamt of in even our weird theology. Link to comment
Ahab Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 8 hours ago, The Nehor said: There are more thing in heaven and earth than our dreamt of in even our weird theology. When talking about people, though, ... the kind of being we are... I am pretty dang sure that we can classify all people as being only 1 of 2 possible types. 1. people who have been resurrected, or 2) people who have not been resurrected. There are no other types of people in heaven or on earth. Link to comment
The Nehor Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Ahab said: When talking about people, though, ... the kind of being we are... I am pretty dang sure that we can classify all people as being only 1 of 2 possible types. 1. people who have been resurrected, or 2) people who have not been resurrected. There are no other types of people in heaven or on earth. Those two types are not helpful definitions. You can have premortal beings, living on earth beings, dead spirit beings, living on Earth in a Terrestrial millenial body beings, and possibly more who are all not resurrected. There are several categories of resurrected beings discussed in scripture and there may be many more that we do not know of. Your comment is like the comment from “What about Bob”: “There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who like Neil Diamond and those who don’t.” It might be true but it is not that helpful as a classification when there are so many subtypes of each set. 2 Link to comment
Chum Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Joseph was pretty okay. He was full of flaws and mistakes - things that are often taboo + demonized but are also necessary for becoming a better person. He's a good example of how the Mantle operates just fine along side of those imperfections. 1 Link to comment
Ahab Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 15 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Those two types are not helpful definitions. You can have premortal beings, living on earth beings, dead spirit beings, living on Earth in a Terrestrial millenial body beings, and possibly more who are all not resurrected. There are several categories of resurrected beings discussed in scripture and there may be many more that we do not know of. Your comment is like the comment from “What about Bob”: “There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who like Neil Diamond and those who don’t.” It might be true but it is not that helpful as a classification when there are so many subtypes of each set. You don't seem to be aware of what subcategories are or are for. Here, I'll break it down a little bit more for you now: type 1. resurrected a. exalted i. celestial b. not exalted i. terrestrial ii. telestial type 2. not resurrected a. spirit only, never had a mortal body b. spirit presently combined with a mortal body c. spirit presently separated from a mortal body, dead 1 Link to comment
InCognitus Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Ahab said: You don't seem to be aware of what subcategories are or are for. Here, I'll break it down a little bit more for you now: type 1. resurrected a. exalted i. celestial b. not exalted i. terrestrial ii. telestial type 2. not resurrected a. spirit only, never had a mortal body b. spirit presently combined with a mortal body c. spirit presently separated from a mortal body, dead You forgot one (at least): type 2. not resurrected a. spirit only, never had a mortal body b. spirit presently combined with a mortal body c. spirit presently separated from a mortal body, dead d. spirit presently combined with a translated body Or maybe c and d should be switched. Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chum said: Joseph was pretty okay. He was full of flaws and mistakes - things that are often taboo + demonized but are also necessary for becoming a better person. He's a good example of how the Mantle operates just fine along side of those imperfections. The problem is that we idolize prophets with a cloak of infallibility. I respect Joseph as the greatest prophet ever, but to think of him as infallible denies his humanity and makes him impossible to emulate. It also denies us as individuals the ability to go directly to God in prayer, and receive our own testimonies, and makes us spiritual unthinking slaves of an individual, as has happened in the Jim Jones situation years ago, now largely forgotten. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones Edited January 5, 2021 by mfbukowski 1 Link to comment
Ahab Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 3 minutes ago, InCognitus said: You forgot one (at least): type 2. not resurrected a. spirit only, never had a mortal body b. spirit presently combined with a mortal body c. spirit presently separated from a mortal body, dead d. spirit presently combined with a translated body Or maybe c and d should be switched. I'm thinking the breakdown is more like this: type 2. not resurrected a. spirit only, never had a mortal body b. spirit presently combined with a mortal body i. not translated, just a normal mortal body ii. translated, still a spirit combined with a mortal body but not dead and not twinkled to resurrection yet c. spirit presently separated from a mortal body, dead Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ahab said: I'm thinking the breakdown is more like this: type 2. not resurrected a. spirit only, never had a mortal body b. spirit presently combined with a mortal body i. not translated, just a normal mortal body ii. translated, still a spirit combined with a mortal body but not dead and not twinkled to resurrection yet c. spirit presently separated from a mortal body, dead Yeah but you can't dress up like any of those on Halloween! Or wait a minute. I could just put on a suit, and tell people I am dressed as " b. spirit presently combined with a mortal body" Hmmmm..... Edited January 5, 2021 by mfbukowski Link to comment
Ahab Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Yeah but you can't dress up like any of those on Halloween! Or wait a minute. I could just put on a suit, and tell people I am dressed as " b. spirit presently combined with a mortal body" Hmmmm..... You could do many things to be considered funny, and that is only one of your possible choices. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 3 hours ago, Chum said: Joseph was pretty okay. He was full of flaws and mistakes - things that are often taboo + demonized but are also necessary for becoming a better person. He's a good example of how the Mantle operates just fine along side of those imperfections. Joseph was more than just OK. In the words of Doctrine and Covenants 135, “he lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people.” I’ve observed that in our modern day self-consciousness and rush to assure the world that we don’t worship Joseph Smith, we unduly denigrate him. No, he wasn’t perfect. But he was a better man than most; certainly better than his detractors, then or now. 1 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 6, 2021 Share Posted January 6, 2021 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: No, he wasn’t perfect. But he was a better man than most; certainly better than his detractors, then or now. One of the things I love most about the Prophet Joseph is his complete humanity. It makes him relatable. I love that the mercy of God, ratified through the Great Atoning Sacrifice, allows Him to reveal Himself to even people like me. Joseph's example is an invitation to come unto Christ in all our messy reality and be perfected in Him. 2 Link to comment
Recommended Posts