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Can the holy habits and righteous routines of Mormonism bring immediate blessings, superseding Gods blessings of mercy.


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1 hour ago, Islander said:

I have no idea you're talking about. I pointed out that according to scripture; all scripture, mind you, we are ALL unworthy creatures indebted to our Heavenly Father for ALL that we have and are. You can not earn anything upon personal merit. The idea that thru personal so-called "righteousness" you can derive anything from anywhere is just prideful talk. I pointed to that on several scriptures but you decided to ignore it and launched into some disjointed diatribe rather than reasoned, scripture based argument. That is precisely what the pharisees believed at the time of Jesus and the Savior destroyed their corrupted theology in one speech. Read Matthew 5. And while you are at it Check out Moroni 7:43-48 and see if I'm not right.

Good luck

I find it hilarious that you said  " you dont do opinion ". Do you actually believe that? This whole board is one giant OPINION and that's a FACT. What you've written, to me, fits perfectly with the opinion of most Baptist, methodist, Presbyteriams and so on. Yes, mormons also believe that we're saved by grace just like other Christians, but we also believe that we can gain a higher glory, exaltation, and that's based on grace plus works. Since you believe in "facts" here's one for you. Even though Christians  believe whole heartedly in christ like we do, it's not good enough to get them in the temple. Entrance into the temple is based on your obedience to the commandments. You have to sit before a common judge and be deemed worthy through your merits to gain entry into the temple. That's were our church diverges from typical Christian churches. Our works not only help us gain entry into the holy house of the lord but they also prove we're worthy of exaltation. Dont be scared of Mormonism islander! Here's a quote from David O McKay, " The fallacy that Jesus has done all for us, and live as we may, if on our deathbed,  we only believe ,we shall be saved in his glorious presence,  is most pernicious. Jesus Christ, the savior of the world, has given us the means whereby man may obtain eternal happiness  and peace in the kingdom of our father, but man most work out his own salvation through obedience to the eternal principles and ordinances of the gospel."  

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And islander, You earn your way into the temple! If all it took was faith in jesus to gain entry into the temple, my Christian cousins and aunts and uncles wouldn't have to stand in the parking lot like a bunch of rejects while we "worthy folk" attend a once in a lifetime event in the house of the lord.

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2 hours ago, Islander said:

That is because you do not know the scriptures. I don't do opinion. The scriptures, ancient and modern hold to the principles I just outlined. Feel free to disagree. 

Actually I think your interpretation is very much opinion.

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48 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

And islander, You earn your way into the temple! If all it took was faith in jesus to gain entry into the temple, my Christian cousins and aunts and uncles wouldn't have to stand in the parking lot like a bunch of rejects while we "worthy folk" attend a once in a lifetime event in the house of the lord.

I am amazed they put up with you enough to come and wait in the parking lot. That kind of charity shows real promise.

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7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am amazed they put up with you enough to come and wait in the parking lot. That kind of charity shows real promise.

Ouch!!! Burn!!! You got me Nehor. You Burned me good man. 😘😘 Here's 2 kisses as a reward. Funny story. 3 weddings ago, for some reason a bunch of non mormon family showed up for a cousin's temple wedding, probably 10 or so. The attendees come outside to wait on the bride so she could take pictures with her brides maids and while we're waiting my 7 year old niece starts pulling on the front door of the temple because she has to use the bathroom. Her older sister asked her non mormon dad why he cant take her in to use the bathroom and jokingly he said, because we're the rejects of the family. It bothered me enough that the last 2 weddings I've stood outside with the "rejects". So see, there's parts of Mormonism that even scares/upsets me. 

     I'm here to learn and one thing I've noticed is that the last few conversations I've had, people are willing to talk about being good humble people and doing your best, and the lord will reach down and pull you the rest of the way up through his grace because you have nothing to offer but filthy rags. And I agree 100% that's sufficient, up until exaltation. So honestly,  please tell me what I'm missing, I dont understand how you can recieve exaltation without being judged on your works. My understanding is, just being a good person isnt sufficient for exaltation, you have to work. Am I totally off base? Or, are we trying to shy away from that doctrine so we fit in better with other Christians?

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1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

So honestly,  please tell me what I'm missing, I dont understand how you can recieve exaltation without being judged on your works.

I think that works and grace are also a dynamic, as with faith and knowledge and mercy and worthiness. We are judged on the integration of each of these, and other dynamics that define what we became, what we’ve become, and what we are to become. You cannot tease them apart any more than you can tease apart a relationship like you can a simple transaction and still possess the components in isolation. By separating the dynamic, the parts become something entirely different.

I think the D&C definition of “truth” covers it: truth is knowledge of things as they were (applied faith in retrospect), knowledge of things as they are (current experience), and knowledge of things as they are to come (foreknowledge is the prospectus of faith yet to be fulfilled). In the same way, truth is works as they were (applied grace in retrospect), works as they are (“but by the grace of God, go I”), and works as they are to come (the Holy Spirit of Promise is the prospectus of grace yet to be fulfilled).

It’s a matter of integration, not one single “threshold” element acting over others. We are judged on the whole shebang.

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I agree with Elder Renlund in his April 2019 conference talk, Abound in Blessing.  He gives some good analogies too.

“The question of how to access and obtain those blessings has been the subject of theological debate and discussion for centuries. Some contend that blessings are completely earned; we receive them only through our works. Others argue that God has already chosen who He will bless and how—and that these determinations are unchangeable. Both positions are fundamentally flawed. Blessings from heaven are neither earned by frenetically accruing “good deed coupons” nor by helplessly waiting to see if we win the blessing lottery. No, the truth is much more nuanced but more appropriate for the relationship between a loving Heavenly Father and His potential heirs —us. Restored truth reveals that blessings are never earned, but faith-inspired actions on our part, both initial and ongoing, are essential.”

 

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33 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think that works and grace are also a dynamic, as with faith and knowledge and mercy and worthiness. We are judged on the integration of each of these, and other dynamics that define what we became, what we’ve become, and what we are to become. You cannot tease them apart any more than you can tease apart a relationship like you can a simple transaction and still possess the components in isolation. By separating the dynamic, the parts become something entirely different.

I think the D&C definition of “truth” covers it: truth is knowledge of things as they were (applied faith in retrospect), knowledge of things as they are (current experience), and knowledge of things as they are to come (foreknowledge is the prospectus of faith yet to be fulfilled). In the same way, truth is works as they were (applied grace in retrospect), works as they are (“but by the grace of God, go I”), and works as they are to come (the Holy Spirit of Promise is the prospectus of grace yet to be fulfilled).

It’s a matter of integration, not one single “threshold” element acting over others. We are judged on the whole shebang.

Thank you

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3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I agree with Elder Renlund in his April 2019 conference talk, Abound in Blessing.  He gives some good analogies too.

“The question of how to access and obtain those blessings has been the subject of theological debate and discussion for centuries. Some contend that blessings are completely earned; we receive them only through our works. Others argue that God has already chosen who He will bless and how—and that these determinations are unchangeable. Both positions are fundamentally flawed. Blessings from heaven are neither earned by frenetically accruing “good deed coupons” nor by helplessly waiting to see if we win the blessing lottery. No, the truth is much more nuanced but more appropriate for the relationship between a loving Heavenly Father and His potential heirs —us. Restored truth reveals that blessings are never earned, but faith-inspired actions on our part, both initial and ongoing, are essential.”

 

Thank you pogi, I haven't read that talk yet I'll definitely read it tonight

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On 12/20/2020 at 6:51 AM, AtlanticMike said:

Can we live in such a way that a blessing will be granted to us, not out of Gods divine mercy, but because of our living the gospel almost to a point of perfection?

It depends on how you define "blessing".

The traditional/common usage is "God's favor and protection".   The answer is Yes.   Every single talk/scripture/hallway conversation/PPI with the youth I've ever experienced, all say that blessings come after we follow the commandments.

The secular usage, growing in popularity, is "a special favor, mercy, or benefit".  Basically, same thing, but without the God.   The answer is Yes.  And anyone with the slightest understanding of a 12 step program, or physical therapy after a surgery/accident, or even anyone who has succeeded at a diet, are all rolling their eyes at the question.

If you're defining blessing as "salvation and/or exhaltation", then the answer is No.  We can't earn our way into heaven - Christ's atonement is necessary for us all.

 

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3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Ouch!!! Burn!!! You got me Nehor. You Burned me good man. 😘😘 Here's 2 kisses as a reward. Funny story. 3 weddings ago, for some reason a bunch of non mormon family showed up for a cousin's temple wedding, probably 10 or so. The attendees come outside to wait on the bride so she could take pictures with her brides maids and while we're waiting my 7 year old niece starts pulling on the front door of the temple because she has to use the bathroom. Her older sister asked her non mormon dad why he cant take her in to use the bathroom and jokingly he said, because we're the rejects of the family. It bothered me enough that the last 2 weddings I've stood outside with the "rejects". So see, there's parts of Mormonism that even scares/upsets me. 

     I'm here to learn and one thing I've noticed is that the last few conversations I've had, people are willing to talk about being good humble people and doing your best, and the lord will reach down and pull you the rest of the way up through his grace because you have nothing to offer but filthy rags. And I agree 100% that's sufficient, up until exaltation. So honestly,  please tell me what I'm missing, I dont understand how you can recieve exaltation without being judged on your works. My understanding is, just being a good person isnt sufficient for exaltation, you have to work. Am I totally off base? Or, are we trying to shy away from that doctrine so we fit in better with other Christians?

We merit nothing but our effort allows God to give us more through covenants. We don’t earn it; we are given it but we are only given it conditionally on what we do. Even when it is given we did not earn it.

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40 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

It depends on how you define "blessing".

The traditional/common usage is "God's favor and protection".   The answer is Yes.   Every single talk/scripture/hallway conversation/PPI with the youth I've ever experienced, all say that blessings come after we follow the commandments.

The secular usage, growing in popularity, is "a special favor, mercy, or benefit".  Basically, same thing, but without the God.   The answer is Yes.  And anyone with the slightest understanding of a 12 step program, or physical therapy after a surgery/accident, or even anyone who has succeeded at a diet, are all rolling their eyes at the question.

If you're defining blessing as "salvation and/or exhaltation", then the answer is No.  We can't earn our way into heaven - Christ's atonement is necessary for us all.

 

Thank you. 

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38 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We merit nothing but our effort allows God to give us more through covenants. We don’t earn it; we are given it but we are only given it conditionally on what we do. Even when it is given we did not earn it.

Thank you. Can you give me your opinion on the David O Mckay quote I provided in a post to islander 11 hours ago.

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10 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you. Can you give me your opinion on the David O Mckay quote I provided in a post to islander 11 hours ago.

That a professed insincere deathbed repentance will not save you? I agree. President McKay was talking about people who believe Jesus will (to use a Book of Mormon expression) save them in their sins. His scriptural encouragement to work out your own salvation is correct but there is no way to work out your salvation (for us) outside of the atonement of Christ. You don’t earn it. You fulfill the covenants through which Christ will bless you with it. Our efforts only facilitate the atonement. Outside of it we are doomed to being devils.

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35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That a professed insincere deathbed repentance will not save you? I agree. President McKay was talking about people who believe Jesus will (to use a Book of Mormon expression) save them in their sins. His scriptural encouragement to work out your own salvation is correct but there is no way to work out your salvation (for us) outside of the atonement of Christ. You don’t earn it. You fulfill the covenants through which Christ will bless you with it. Our efforts only facilitate the atonement. Outside of it we are doomed to being devils.

🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 you just blew my mind man. You have given me alot to think about. Thank you for taking the time to read the quote and giving me your opinion. 

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

We merit nothing but our effort allows God to give us more through covenants. We don’t earn it; we are given it but we are only given it conditionally on what we do. Even when it is given we did not earn it.

I can't put my finger on it but this seems somewhat contradictory.

Either we receive a blessing based on our actions or we don't.  If blessings result from actions then isn't that your basic work/payment dynamic?

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40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

That a professed insincere deathbed repentance will not save you? I agree. President McKay was talking about people who believe Jesus will (to use a Book of Mormon expression) save them in their sins. His scriptural encouragement to work out your own salvation is correct but there is no way to work out your salvation (for us) outside of the atonement of Christ. You don’t earn it. You fulfill the covenants through which Christ will bless you with it. Our efforts only facilitate the atonement. Outside of it we are doomed to being devils.

I see it as fulfilling the commandments prepare us so we are able to receive the promised blessings, promised out of love and a desire to bring us to him.  This obedience is necessary, but not sufficient to receive blessings anymore than applying for and receiving a driver’s license means you have earned the right to drive a car.  It only means you have earned the ability to drive a car. You still need the car and keys.  The application for a license is provided by another just as the opportunity for obedience is provided by giving of commandments and instruction and inspiration on how to fulfill those commandments.  

How the ‘car’, the blessing is delivered is up to the Lord as well, though he has in essence told us the make and model of the car we can expect.  

In regard to exaltation or the afterlife in general, I see us as like non mechanical children who have no knowledge of how a car works and maybe only a vague idea that its purpose is to help us get from where we are to where we want to be even if we have never seen even a picture or description of a car beyond it is a transport vehicle, so while he has told us what to expect (exaltation, an eternal life with him), we don’t really know what that means and choose to operate on faith/trust in our God. 

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8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

can't put my finger on it but this seems somewhat contradictory.

Preparation to be able to receive something does not mean we have earned it. I can learn how to play a piano like a concert pianist and even build a home with great acoustics, but that doesn’t automatically get me a grand piano in my front room. 

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11 minutes ago, Calm said:

I see it as fulfilling the commandments prepare us so we are able to receive the promised blessings, promised out of love and a desire to bring us to him.  This obedience is necessary, but not sufficient to receive blessings anymore than applying for and receiving a driver’s license means you have earned the right to drive a car.  It only means you have earned the ability to drive a car. You still need the car and keys.  The application for a license is provided by another just as the opportunity for obedience is provided by giving of commandments and instruction and inspiration on how to fulfill those commandments.  

How the ‘car’, the blessing is delivered is up to the Lord as well, though he has in essence told us the make and model of the car we can expect.  

In regard to exaltation or the afterlife in general, I see us as like non mechanical children who have no knowledge of how a car works and maybe only a vague idea that its purpose is to help us get from where we are to where we want to be even if we have never seen even a picture or description of a car beyond it is a transport vehicle, so while he has told us what to expect (exaltation, an eternal life with him), we don’t really know what that means and choose to operate on faith/trust in our God. 

Hey calm, if you consider yourself non mechanical, there's always YouTube, you can learn anything from YouTube 🤣🤣. I just rebuilt a 5.4 liter Ford engine from YouTube from watching videos. !!WARNING!! This was an attempt at humor, if it didnt come off as such please disregard the entire post.

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18 minutes ago, Calm said:

Preparation to be able to receive something does not mean we have earned it. I can learn how to play a piano like a concert pianist and even build a home with great acoustics, but that doesn’t automatically get me a grand piano in my front room. 

All true, but not every blessing is a future conditional.  Some blessings are immediate.
If we obey the command to call upon the Elders of the Church to bless a sick member and that member is healed I don't see how our faith and obedience didn't merit that blessing.

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13 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Here's a quote from David O McKay, " The fallacy that Jesus has done all for us, and live as we may, if on our deathbed,  we only believe ,we shall be saved in his glorious presence,  is most pernicious. Jesus Christ, the savior of the world, has given us the means whereby man may obtain eternal happiness  and peace in the kingdom of our father, but man most work out his own salvation through obedience to the eternal principles and ordinances of the gospel."  

To beat a dead horse: as with the other concepts, you cannot separate these two and still possess each component in isolation. The means (Christ's atonement and path) would not exist without our works (there would be nothing to reconcile), and our works would not exist without His atonement and path (there would be no agency to act).

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20 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

All true, but not every blessing is a future conditional.  Some blessings are immediate.
If we obey the command to call upon the Elders of the Church to bless a sick member and that member is healed I don't see how our faith and obedience didn't merit that blessing.

Because our faith and obedience do not operate in isolation, and are even dependent on the Higher Power. What kind of immediate healing is it where the "Thy will be done" attitude is lacking or absent at a fundamental level?

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4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

To beat a dead horse: as with the other concepts, you cannot separate these two and still possess each component in isolation. The means (Christ's atonement and path) would not exist without our works (there would be nothing to reconcile), and our works would not exist without His atonement and path (there would be no agency to act).

CV75, I'm contacting PETA as soon as I finish typing this response 🤣🤣

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

I can't put my finger on it but this seems somewhat contradictory.

Either we receive a blessing based on our actions or we don't.  If blessings result from actions then isn't that your basic work/payment dynamic?

We do receive it based on our actions but Christ’s atonement made it so those actions got that reward and without the atonement the actions would have been rewarded with nothing. So it all comes from Christ but our actions also determine how much comes. I think that makes sense. It does in my head anyways.

Also the reward is disproportionate to the actions taken. We are unprofitable servants. It is akin to a small child “helping” their parent with a chore. The child often contributes nothing or even less than nothing by making the task take longer but the parent is pleased anyways and is likely to reward the child in some way. The child didn’t really earn the reward in any cost/benefit analysis but the parent gives them the reward anyways.

Once people are exalted (maybe even before) we can possibly start being profitable on our own merits but that is just a guess. I am convinced we cannot do it while alive here.

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6 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Ouch!!! Burn!!! You got me Nehor. You Burned me good man. 😘😘 Here's 2 kisses as a reward. Funny story. 3 weddings ago, for some reason a bunch of non mormon family showed up for a cousin's temple wedding, probably 10 or so. The attendees come outside to wait on the bride so she could take pictures with her brides maids and while we're waiting my 7 year old niece starts pulling on the front door of the temple because she has to use the bathroom. Her older sister asked her non mormon dad why he cant take her in to use the bathroom and jokingly he said, because we're the rejects of the family. It bothered me enough that the last 2 weddings I've stood outside with the "rejects". So see, there's parts of Mormonism that even scares/upsets me. 

     I'm here to learn and one thing I've noticed is that the last few conversations I've had, people are willing to talk about being good humble people and doing your best, and the lord will reach down and pull you the rest of the way up through his grace because you have nothing to offer but filthy rags. And I agree 100% that's sufficient, up until exaltation. So honestly,  please tell me what I'm missing, I dont understand how you can recieve exaltation without being judged on your works. My understanding is, just being a good person isnt sufficient for exaltation, you have to work. Am I totally off base? Or, are we trying to shy away from that doctrine so we fit in better with other Christians?

My inactive siblings and their husbands had to wait outside the temple. Which saddens me to this day. And I've attended my niece and nephew's temple ceremonies where once again my siblings had to wait outside, even flying from out of state. They did sort of complain once, don't recall their words, but I felt bad for them. I'm so glad the church allows ceremonies outside the temple and then sealed the next day in the temple, vs. waiting for a year. It was the best choice. And I do remember conversations on this board about it a few years ago. But now I think more members are being more positive about the change vs. defending the church establishing the rule not to allow the temple sealing immediately following the civil marriage. 

And about the part of receiving exaltation without being judged on your works is off to me. From conversations on this very board I remember conversations that faithful LDS totally agree this is a works based belief and were fine with that. 

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