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Are the inheritors of the Terrestrial kingdom damned?


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3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

As I have matured in the Gospel and quantum physics, I have come to feel as you do about it. My favorite physicist is Richard Feynman, and my second favorite is Stephen Hawking, both of whom were decided atheists.  In Hawking's last book (published posthumously) he said something that really clicked with me about God. Granted, he was disparaging the very existence of a Creator at the time, but what he said took me to a new place of understanding. I suppose that "understanding" is a matter of degrees (as Feynman once said, "If you think you understand quantum physics, you don't understand quantum physics"). But it became extremely clear that in order to create the universe, God had to be standing outside of it, or else he would have had to create Himself, which is an absurdity. What Hawking said was that at moment of the Big Bang there was no time for a Creator to exist in (let alone create anything in). This is patently obvious! So there's no other "place" or "time" for God to be than "outside" of the universe, whatever the heck that's supposed to mean. Of course, Hawking uses this idea of "no time for a creator to exist in" to say of course there's no God, but there's no math nor physics behind that assertion, so it's just his unsupported opinion. He may have changed his opinion by now.

Multiverse confirmed ;). I'm skeptical of many worlds theory though. 

I am not scientifically adept by any means, so I'm probably butchering this, but I've typically found my response to the problem of entropy and eternity from this. I don't think there's reason to believe that our reality is a closed system. Also it's possible that celestial glory changes basic laws of physics. I don't dip too far into that bottomless well.

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8 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Multiverse confirmed ;). I'm skeptical of many worlds theory though. 

I am not scientifically adept by any means, so I'm probably butchering this, but I've typically found my response to the problem of entropy and eternity from this. I don't think there's reason to believe that our reality is a closed system. Also it's possible that celestial glory changes basic laws of physics. I don't dip too far into that bottomless well.

The laws of physics may have nothing whatever to do with celestial glory. Most people imagine heaven to merely be a souped-up version of mortality. I'm convinced that it is so far beyond that, that we literally cannot imagine it. Well, we can imagine it, but our imaginary vision of heaven (any of them) is like trying to see something in a lightless cavern a mile underground.

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1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

The laws of physics may have nothing whatever to do with celestial glory. Most people imagine heaven to merely be a souped-up version of mortality. I'm convinced that it is so far beyond that, that we literally cannot imagine it. Well, we can imagine it, but our imaginary vision of heaven (any of them) is like trying to see something in a lightless cavern a mile underground.

And no telescope can see it, either.

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5 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The laws of physics may have nothing whatever to do with celestial glory. Most people imagine heaven to merely be a souped-up version of mortality. I'm convinced that it is so far beyond that, that we literally cannot imagine it. Well, we can imagine it, but our imaginary vision of heaven (any of them) is like trying to see something in a lightless cavern a mile underground.

"souped-up version of mortality". That's a funny line and I approve. Actually that's how I've always viewed the telestial kingdom - souped-uo mortality. The celestial kingdom should not be considered in the same category. 

Edit: I encountered a discussion on some other board about the laws of physics and the gospel and many Smart People™️ were posting and a consensus was that, since God is a physical being He has to obey the laws of physics as we know them. And because many Smart People™️ were going along with this I bought into it for a bit until I looked up and was like "wait why the freak should I believe that? I don't believe that. I don't think God is required to adhere our feeble conceptions of reality and I don't see any reason why I should believe that." 

It was on that day that I was introduced to both philosophical skeptical theism and the fact that overthinking things doesn't stop with our high school final essays.  

Edited by OGHoosier
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22 hours ago, Mike Livingston said:

A couple years ago one of my kids was studying the d&c for seminary. When she got to 132 and started reading about Emma being destroyed, I think verse 54, she had a really hard time with the wording. From my understanding and the best I could explain to her, was that to me, what God was telling Emma was if she didn't listen to Joseph, she would be banished to the terrestrial kingdom an live eternity in a damned status along with everyone else who inherited that kingdom. Is this a good explanation or do you read it differently?

I wouldn't call it being "banished" to the terrestrial Kingdom. Those who go there do so because that is where they will be happiest and fit in the best. Being damned is not really the same thing as going to the place we call Hell. Actually the word "damnation" is a term derived from the Latin damnum, meaning "injury" and "loss," and connotes deprivation of what should have been possessed. In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be stopped, blocked, or limited in one's progress. People are damned whenever they are prevented from reaching their full potential as children of God. Damnation is falling short of what one might have enjoyed if one had received and been faithful to the whole law of the gospel. In this sense, all who do not achieve the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom are damned, even though they are saved in some degree of glory. They are damned in the sense that they will not enjoy an eternal increase or the continuation of the family unit in eternity (D&C 132:4, 19).

Actually everyone who dies is sort of in a condition of Hell because they are without their bodies and know they cannot be complete until they are resurrected and regain their bodies.

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23 hours ago, Mike Livingston said:

A couple years ago one of my kids was studying the d&c for seminary. When she got to 132 and started reading about Emma being destroyed, I think verse 54, she had a really hard time with the wording. From my understanding and the best I could explain to her, was that to me, what God was telling Emma was if she didn't listen to Joseph, she would be banished to the terrestrial kingdom an live eternity in a damned status along with everyone else who inherited that kingdom. Is this a good explanation or do you read it differently?

From what I read in the scriptures, everyone does not endure the end (to obey all the 
commandments and inherit eternal life with eternal increase) is damned (2 Nephi 9:24).
This is also taught in D&C 132:4 (they failed to enter the glory of the Father).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/damnation?lang=eng

In the above case, damnation does not mean destruction.

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20 hours ago, Mike Livingston said:

Also, 13.00 to 13.55, this is when Elder Oaks explains that anyone who doesn't accept baptism and the ordinances of the temple are damned to a lesser status or kingdom.

Sorry but our doctrine is sometimes kind of complex and these statements were made to people familiar with the gospel

First of all to gain the Terrestrial Kingdom one would have to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ- ie: the LDS ordinance of baptism.  BUT that includes the possibility that you have never heard of Christ, or were deluded in this world- and this can be done AFTER DEATH, in the temple.

So suppose in this world, you don't believe in the LDS church here and perhaps are even a critic.  You die.  You wake up dead and suddenly you realize the nature of what it's like to be dead and so you understand the afterlife because YOU ARE THERE.

There are LDS missionaries all over the spirit world, and they re-teach you the gospel you never REALLY knew here

You accept the LDS gospel in the afterlife, and you are baptized by proxy in an LDS temple, and receive you endowments AFTER YOU HAVE PAST.

You are just as "baptized" in the afterlife as you would have been if you had accepted the gospel here on earth!

God will then judge you and you could very well end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom or even the Celestial.

Your progression is not stopped and could go on.  You could perhaps even become like God if you are righteous enough.

So yes, as Elder Oaks said, yes - anyone who doesn't accept baptism, would get a lesser kingdom.

That includes NOT accepting baptism in the afterlife.   

We are taught that virtually everyone who gets to the other side WILL see the wisdom of the LDS gospel and accept it

We are nearly universalists- (believers that ALL are "saved") when you see our teachings in this context

Just remember all the statements you see of this nature include those who do NOT accept the gospel on the other side- and understand exactly what will happen if the do not accept it because they are already on the other side, seeing all this with their own spiritual "eyes".  They will have every chance to accept it, with examples right in front of them!!

Suppose you see your friend Charlie who is just like you and was never LDS in life, go off to the Celestial Kingdom after accepting the gospel and receiving ordinances by proxy.   Might that change your mind?   🙂

Don't answer until you are there!  ;)

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30 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

From what I read in the scriptures, everyone does not endure the end (to obey all the 
commandments and inherit eternal life with eternal increase) is damned (2 Nephi 9:24).
This is also taught in D&C 132:4 (they failed to enter the glory of the Father).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/damnation?lang=eng

Even the source you provided says there are "varying degrees" of damnation:

Quote

The state of being stopped in one’s progress and denied access to the presence of God and His glory. Damnation exists in varying degrees. All who do not obtain the fulness of celestial exaltation will to some degree be limited in their progress and privileges, and they will be damned to that extent.

If someone can still progress in some way then they aren't absolutely stopped in their progress.

37 minutes ago, TheTanakas said:

In the above case, damnation does not mean destruction.

The scriptures define "destruction" as being cut off from God's people, as it says in Acts 2:23:  "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."  And those who do not know God and obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ will "be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power" (2 Thes 2:8-).  So damnation and destruction from the presence of the Lord are similar if not synonymous (depending on the degree of damnation).

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1 hour ago, JAHS said:

I wouldn't call it being "banished" to the terrestrial Kingdom. Those who go there do so because that is where they will be happiest and fit in the best. Being damned is not really the same thing as going to the place we call Hell. Actually the word "damnation" is a term derived from the Latin damnum, meaning "injury" and "loss," and connotes deprivation of what should have been possessed. In LDS doctrine, to be damned means to be stopped, blocked, or limited in one's progress. People are damned whenever they are prevented from reaching their full potential as children of God. Damnation is falling short of what one might have enjoyed if one had received and been faithful to the whole law of the gospel. In this sense, all who do not achieve the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom are damned, even though they are saved in some degree of glory. They are damned in the sense that they will not enjoy an eternal increase or the continuation of the family unit in eternity (D&C 132:4, 19).

Actually everyone who dies is sort of in a condition of Hell because they are without their bodies and know they cannot be complete until they are resurrected and regain their bodies.

Thank you for responding. The reason I used the word banished is because after Emma was sealed to Joseph for eternity, I'm sure she thought she was on her way to the celestial kingdom (there's multiple accounts of Joseph promising eternity) as  long as she was loyal to the covenant she made with the lord. In the verse I'm talking about, god is pretty much telling her, follow my prophet Joseph or your out of here,  to me that's being banished.  But I understand what your saying. And man! I sure feel sorry for Emma, that woman delt with enough to last 5 lifetimes. She was a strong women.

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13 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Sorry but our doctrine is sometimes kind of complex and these statements were made to people familiar with the gospel

First of all to gain the Terrestrial Kingdom one would have to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ- ie: the LDS ordinance of baptism.  BUT that includes the possibility that you have never heard of Christ, or were deluded in this world- and this can be done AFTER DEATH, in the temple.

So suppose in this world, you don't believe in the LDS church here and perhaps are even a critic.  You die.  You wake up dead and suddenly you realize the nature of what it's like to be dead and so you understand the afterlife because YOU ARE THERE.

There are LDS missionaries all over the spirit world, and they re-teach you the gospel you never REALLY knew here

You accept the LDS gospel in the afterlife, and you are baptized by proxy in an LDS temple, and receive you endowments AFTER YOU HAVE PAST.

You are just as "baptized" in the afterlife as you would have been if you had accepted the gospel here on earth!

God will then judge you and you could very well end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom or even the Celestial.

Your progression is not stopped and could go on.  You could perhaps even become like God if you are righteous enough.

So yes, as Elder Oaks said, yes - anyone who doesn't accept baptism, would get a lesser kingdom.

That includes NOT accepting baptism in the afterlife.   

We are taught that virtually everyone who gets to the other side WILL see the wisdom of the LDS gospel and accept it

We are nearly universalists- (believers that ALL are "saved") when you see our teachings in this context

Just remember all the statements you see of this nature include those who do NOT accept the gospel on the other side- and understand exactly what will happen if the do not accept it because they are already on the other side, seeing all this with their own spiritual "eyes".  They will have every chance to accept it, with examples right in front of them!!

Suppose you see your friend Charlie who is just like you and was never LDS in life, go off to the Celestial Kingdom after accepting the gospel and receiving ordinances by proxy.   Might that change your mind?   🙂

Don't answer until you are there!  ;)

I do have a friend Charlie and if I see him in the afterlife there's a good chance I'm in hell.🤣🤣

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19 minutes ago, Mike Livingston said:

Thank you for responding. The reason I used the word banished is because after Emma was sealed to Joseph for eternity, I'm sure she thought she was on her way to the celestial kingdom (there's multiple accounts of Joseph promising eternity) as  long as she was loyal to the covenant she made with the lord. In the verse I'm talking about, god is pretty much telling her, follow my prophet Joseph or your out of here,  to me that's being banished.  But I understand what your saying. And man! I sure feel sorry for Emma, that woman delt with enough to last 5 lifetimes. She was a strong women.

Regardless of what the scripture said Brigham Young once said that Joseph Smith said that he would have her (Emma Smith) hereafter, even if he had to go to Hell for her.
(Journal of Discourses, Volume 17, page 159)

Eternity is a long time and things can change so I don't think we need to worry too much about Emma's salvation.

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The simple answer is no, those who inherit the terrestrial kingdom are not "damned" or thrust down to hell. Those who inherit the terrestrial kingdom are saved. 

Those who inherit the Telestial kingdom are first damned and thrust down to hell to pay for their own sins. Once they have paid the price for their sins, they are heirs of salvation and are saved in the Telestial kingdom of heaven.

(See D&C 76)

As for Emma Smith. I think Brigham was right that she was thrust down to hell and that Joseph will have to save her by virtue of their sealing. D&C 132 talks about what happens to those who have been sealed to a spouse and had their sealing sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and then commit all manner of sin, short of shedding innocent blood. They are given over to the buffetings of Satan (hell) for a time but then ultimately raised to the Celestial kingdom.

This is what will happen to Emma because of all of the horrible lies she spread about Brigham and the Utah Saints. She also intentionally deceived her own children and led them down a forbidden path into an apostate church, when she knew better.

As Brigham Young said, "Emma was the damndest liar" and the scriptures are clear about what happens to unrepentant liars. Emma is destined for the Telestial kingdom, but her sealing to Joseph Smith will save her in the end and she will be restored to her status by his side in the Celestial kingdom after having first been "destroyed" and thrust down to hell to suffer for what she did. 

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21 hours ago, Mike Livingston said:

My daughter thought destroyed meant gone, kaput, vaporized, annihilated and so on. All I was trying to explain to her was that Emma wouldn't find herself in the celestial kingdom as an exalted being with Joseph if she doesn't obey him. Probably the terrestrial since Emma is a good person. 

Damned means being cut off from God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. like the Outer Darkness. There are degrees of damnation Not being able to produce children is a form of damnation.

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1 hour ago, LDS Watchman said:

The simple answer is no, those who inherit the terrestrial kingdom are not "damned" or thrust down to hell. Those who inherit the terrestrial kingdom are saved. 

Those who inherit the Telestial kingdom are first damned and thrust down to hell to pay for their own sins. Once they have paid the price for their sins, they are heirs of salvation and are saved in the Telestial kingdom of heaven.

(See D&C 76)

As for Emma Smith. I think Brigham was right that she was thrust down to hell and that Joseph will have to save her by virtue of their sealing. D&C 132 talks about what happens to those who have been sealed to a spouse and had their sealing sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise and then commit all manner of sin, short of shedding innocent blood. They are given over to the buffetings of Satan (hell) for a time but then ultimately raised to the Celestial kingdom.

This is what will happen to Emma because of all of the horrible lies she spread about Brigham and the Utah Saints. She also intentionally deceived her own children and led them down a forbidden path into an apostate church, when she knew better.

As Brigham Young said, "Emma was the damndest liar" and the scriptures are clear about what happens to unrepentant liars. Emma is destined for the Telestial kingdom, but her sealing to Joseph Smith will save her in the end and she will be restored to her status by his side in the Celestial kingdom after having first been "destroyed" and thrust down to hell to suffer for what she did. 

I would say the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom suffer for their own sin while in hell but that they don’t actually pay for them in the sense that they can be be saved by their own efforts without having to be pardoned by Christ. Note that in D&C 76 the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom bow their knees to God the Father and confess to him that Jesus is the Christ.

Edited by teddyaware
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25 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I would say the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom suffer for their own sin while in hell but that they don’t actually pay for them in the sense that they can be be saved by their own efforts without having to be pardoned by Christ. Note that in D&C 76 the inheritors of the Telestial Kingdom bow their knees to God the Father and confess to him that Jesus is the Christ.

Good point. 

It's hard to say to what degree their suffering pays for their own sins. I believe that their suffering satisfies the demands of justice. 

If they do in fact have to "pay" for their own sins, then Christ's atonement still breaks the bands of physical death and brings about their resurrection (or redemption).

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1 hour ago, LDS Watchman said:

Good point. 

It's hard to say to what degree their suffering pays for their own sins. I believe that their suffering satisfies the demands of justice. 

If they do in fact have to "pay" for their own sins, then Christ's atonement still breaks the bands of physical death and brings about their resurrection (or redemption).

It doesn’t at all satisfy the demands of divine justice for only an infinite and eternal sacrifice of the eternal God, not a fallen man, could successfully pay such an unimaginably high price. The suffering of the wicked in hell is calculated to break down the arrogance and pride of evil, rebellious sinners until they are finally able to feel enough genuine remorse for their sins to want to repent with truly broken hearts and truly contrite spirits. D&C 76 calls this experience of the wicked suffering in hell “the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God,” and it’s within that winepress of eternal vengeance that Christ metes out divine justice upon his enemies until they awaken from the “sleep of death” and receive forgiveness and a measure of salvation at his merciful hand.

Edited by teddyaware
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4 hours ago, Mike Livingston said:

I do have a friend Charlie and if I see him in the afterlife there's a good chance I'm in hell.🤣🤣

Yeah I think I kind of messed up the story in mid- stream and forgot about Charlie til the end.  ;)

But hopefully it answered your question

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4 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Damned means being cut off from God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. like the Outer Darkness. There are degrees of damnation Not being able to produce children is a form of damnation.

Which was sometimes the interpretation of D&C 131 vs 2 before it was officially stated otherwise.

Destroyed implies a limitation of progress, ie, an end to increase.

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2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It doesn’t at all satisfy the demands of divine justice for only an infinite and eternal sacrifice of the eternal God, not a fallen man, could successfully pay such an unimaginably high price. The suffering of the wicked in hell is calculated to break down the arrogance and pride of evil, rebellious sinners until they are finally able to feel enough genuine remorse for their sins to want to repent with truly broken hearts and truly contrite spirits. D&C 76 calls this experience of the wicked suffering in hell “the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God,” and it’s within that winepress of eternal vengeance that Christ metes out divine justice upon his enemies until they awaken from the “sleep of death” and receive forgiveness and a measure of salvation at his merciful hand.

Interesting thoughts.

Can you provide any scriptures to support this?

 

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On 12/12/2020 at 1:03 PM, Mike Livingston said:

................. banished to the terrestrial kingdom an live eternity in a damned status along with everyone else who inherited that kingdom. ...............................

 

On 12/12/2020 at 4:15 PM, Mike Livingston said:

........................ I'm not saying the Terrestrial kingdom isn't a kingdom of glory, all I'm saying is the souls who reside there are in a state of damnation. To me, being in a state of damnation after we die would be finding yourself in a kingdom (even if it's a kingdom of glory) that you are unable to live with your Heavenly parents with no hope of eternal progression. If I'm understanding the terrestrial kingdom correctly, isn't that what it offers?

Sounds pretty horrible for a kingdom of glory.  I thought outer darkness was supposed to be the true place of damnation.  Sounds like "mission creep."  Next we will hear how horrible it is to be a ministering angel in the celestial kingdom, and never have eternal progression, etc.

Isn't the Holy Ghost supposed to be in charge of the Telestial Kingdom, and Jesus in charge of the Terrestrial Kingdom?  And can those from higher kingdoms visit those in lower kingdoms?  Or am I misinformed?

I have heard that it is so wonderful in the Telestial Glory, that if one could actually see it briefly, he would immediately commit suicide to go there.  Does that go double for the Terrestrial Glory?

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Damned if I know. :huh: :unknw:

Sorry.  Couldn't resist. ;) :D

Reminds me of another funny story.  Dude bought land in what I believe, at the time, was Arizona Territory.  When it came time to incorporate his settlement, officials asked what they should call it.  He said, "Damned if I know."  So they named it "Damfino." [Cue rimshot!]  Thanks!   I'll be here all week.  Try the chicken.  It's delicious!  You're a great crowd.

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Let's not forget that most all of us, after we die, are going to end up getting better than we deserve, and people in the terrestrial kingdom will end up getting much better than they deserve.  Many of them will be delighted simply to continue to exist:  "Whoa ... I'm ... still here!  Trippy, Dude!  I was not expecting that! ":blink: :shok:  

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6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Sounds pretty horrible for a kingdom of glory.  I thought outer darkness was supposed to be the true place of damnation.  Sounds like "mission creep."  Next we will hear how horrible it is to be a ministering angel in the celestial kingdom, and never have eternal progression, etc.

Isn't the Holy Ghost supposed to be in charge of the Telestial Kingdom, and Jesus in charge of the Terrestrial Kingdom?  And can those from higher kingdoms visit those in lower kingdoms?  Or am I misinformed?

I have heard that it is so wonderful in the Telestial Glory, that if one could actually see it briefly, he would immediately commit suicide to go there.  Does that go double for the Terrestrial Glory?

Exactly! In your second paragraph you asked "isn't the holy ghost in charge of the telestial kingdom and jesus in charge if the terrestrial kingdom?" So that means the beings in the terrestrial kingdom are under a punishment of sorts, their not entitled to enjoy the presence of the father. So as wonderful as the terrestrial kingdom is they've lost the ability to be in the presence presence of the father, to live eternity with family and to eternally progress! The 3 most important goals we mortals strive for still aren't available to us in the terrestrial kingdom. 

 Again, I didnt say the terrestrial kingdom isn't so wonderful that we wouldn't kill ourselves to go there, all I was asking was while someone is  there, what would be the qualifications for being considered damned. Is it more than the 3 I talked about above?

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On 12/12/2020 at 12:03 PM, AtlanticMike said:

A couple years ago one of my kids was studying the d&c for seminary. When she got to 132 and started reading about Emma being destroyed, I think verse 54, she had a really hard time with the wording. From my understanding and the best I could explain to her, was that to me, what God was telling Emma was if she didn't listen to Joseph, she would be banished to the terrestrial kingdom an live eternity in a damned status along with everyone else who inherited that kingdom. Is this a good explanation or do you read it differently?

Eh, I'll rate that as a 6, maybe a 7, out of a possible 10.  Not the worst you could have said but you could have given an even better explanation.

Congratulations!  You got it mostly correct!

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