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Lawyers and insurance screw everything up.


AtlanticMike

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So I'm going to try another topic since I had the other one locked yesterday. Hopefully I'll get the hang of not pissing off the moderators🥰. So, one thing that has always bothered me for the past 30 years or so is everytime I walk down the hallway in church and pass the kitchen, I think, man what a waste! When I was young I remember ladies in there cooking up a storm. I have a memory that randomly comes to me once in a while for no reason,  it was probably when I was 10 or so, so around 1985 or 86 and I remember half the relief society stuffed into the kitchen cooking 5 or six turkeys, potatoes, green beans, corn bread, sweet potatoes and all kinds of pies, all laid out in the cultural hall so we could feed the neighborhood. I dont remember the details but it must of been around Thanksgiving or Christmas because of the Turkeys. But I remember the kitchen always being used. There was another time the church was open for the neighborhood kids to play basketball all day Saturday and hotdogs and hamburgers were provided to anyone who wanted to eat. I remember that day because my christian uncle who couldn't stand mormonism actually came into the church with his son so we could play basketball together, and to his amazement, he didn't meet the devil or get struck by lightning, i guess it was a good day for my uncle.  Apparently we dont use the kitchens anymore, atleast were I live, because of insurance regulations and the fear of burning down the building. Haven't actually checked into that but it does make since if your worried about insurance premiums. But man what a waste of an opportunity to be able to reach out to the youth in our local area. Am I only who feels like the actual church buildings are never used to their full potential? Is it different in your area, do you actually use the church building for activities that aren't just for members. We sure dont anymore. And I apologize to any lawyers who I might of offended with my title. But it's never to late to go back to school and learn a new trade🤣🤣 just kidding lawyers!!

    

 

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4 minutes ago, Mike Livingston said:

Am I only who feels like the actual church buildings are never used to their full potential?

Never say never.  When disasters occur (such as earthquakes, hurricanes, tornadoes, dam break, etc), we usually see a whole bunch of people camping out in the gym area.  The kitchen is mighty convenient (as well as the bathrooms).

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13 minutes ago, Mike Livingston said:

Haven't actually checked into that but it does make since if your worried about insurance premiums.

Also because the quality of the appliances would need to be upgraded and we would have to meet very stringent health department regulations as a public kitchen...or so I was told in Canada.  I assume it is the same down here in the States.

I was also told the Church self insures, if so no premiums.  Thinking it is the regulations that matter.  You would have to have trained cooks, etc. as well as the upgrades.  Water temperatures to sterilize plates and such would be dangerous for kids.  End up with fewer people being able to use them, I am guessing.

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

gov  regs on commercial kitchens have put the kybosh in the use of church kitchens where I live.

Having said this, it should be noted that our large building is designated as a center to gather for our county in case of emergency. It was used as such a couple of years ago when there was a huge fire in the surrounding area and people were evacuated to it. As the designated building the kitchens are inspected each year by gov't inspectors and so our kitchens are fine for use in a emergency... just not for regular use. Anyone confused by that needs to spend more time in the presence of local officials. 😔

Edited by strappinglad
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

Also because the quality of the appliances would need to be upgraded and we would have to meet very stringent health department regulations as a public kitchen...or so I was told in Canada.  I assume it is the same down here in the States.

I was also told the Church self insures, if so no premiums.  Thinking it is the regulations that matter.  You would have to have trained cooks, etc. as well as the upgrades.  Water temperatures to sterilize plates and such would be dangerous for kids.  End up with fewer people being able to use them, I am guessing.

If it’s a “kitchen” then that involves health inspections and food handlers permits.  If it’s a “serving area” where you can “warm” food then no such regulations.  Same difference.

Same with the stage.  A “stage” means you need to follow all the regulations that a movie house or playhouse does.  A “platform” isn’t regulated.  Same difference.

You’re right that it’s not insurance, it’s government regulations.  

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Having grown up Protestant and having been to a number of different denominations of Churches for: wedding, funerals, etc. EVERY church except our uses their kitchen extensively. It really is annoying that ours does not, I think we're missing out on a lot of fellowship opportunities. 

Also as a former restauranteur I hate the fact that people cook food for Church events at home and then bring it in, violating pretty much every health law in the book for serving food as a organization.

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33 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

violating pretty much every health law in the book for serving food as a organization

If health regulations were being violated then the church wouldn’t allow it.  It’s food cooked by private individuals being served at a private event.  The organization (the church) is not cooking the food and it’s not selling the food to the public.

Edited by ksfisher
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41 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

Having grown up Protestant and having been to a number of different denominations of Churches for: wedding, funerals, etc. EVERY church except our uses their kitchen extensively. It really is annoying that ours does not, I think we're missing out on a lot of fellowship opportunities. 

Also as a former restauranteur I hate the fact that people cook food for Church events at home and then bring it in, violating pretty much every health law in the book for serving food as a organization.

That's what I'm talking about, we are definitely missing out on fellowship opportunities. The baptist church down the street has concerts with food trucks in the parking lot. The community of christ/ other mormons are 20 minutes from me and they do a monthly food pantry, it's not big, but its something. 

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At least some of your animus is misplaced.  Aren't some states who never met a regulation they didn't like due at least some of that opprobrium you're heaping upon the other two professions you mention?

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39 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

At least some of your animus is misplaced.  Aren't some states who never met a regulation they didn't like due at least some of that opprobrium you're heaping upon the other two professions you mention?

Take a chill pill man! It was suppose to be a light hearted story, you know funny. Remembering times past when there wasn't regulations on everything. Good job though because I had to look up the definition of opprobrium. You got me on that one. 

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22 hours ago, Calm said:

Also because the quality of the appliances would need to be upgraded and we would have to meet very stringent health department regulations as a public kitchen...or so I was told in Canada.  I assume it is the same down here in the States.

 

I heard a lot of things like that, but when I couldn't find them in the handbook when I was activities director I called the health department.  We weren't selling food so they didn't apply.  

I was also a room mom at the time so I asked about food at school.  We weren't selling food so it didn't apply.   They told me it had to be a church or a school rule.

Well the were school or church rules.  When I asked the bishop he just told me it was a church rule, but he couldn't tell me where it was.   That was more than 15 years ago so things might have changed. 

Now I was with Festival of Trees.  All of our food was donated in some way. All of the donated food had to be made in approved kitchens.  We had to have a special permit and had an inspection during the 5 days we ran. 

The difference? We sold all the donated food. (All of the money that came in went to helping people at the hospital.)

Quote

I was also told the Church self insures, if so no premiums.  Thinking it is the regulations that matter.  You would have to have trained cooks, etc. as well as the upgrades.  Water temperatures to sterilize plates and such would be dangerous for kids.  End up with fewer people being able to use them, I am guessing.

 

Edited by Rain
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4 hours ago, Rain said:

 

I heard a lot of things like that, but when I couldn't find them in the handbook when I was activities director I called the health department.  We weren't selling food so they didn't apply.  

 

Perhaps they made the decision so it would be consistent between areas. I would not be surprised if different states, cities, provinces have different rules. If they allowed it where legal, it might accidentally happen where it was not and cause big problems for the locals.

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6 hours ago, Calm said:

Perhaps they made the decision so it would be consistent between areas. I would not be surprised if different states, cities, provinces have different rules. If they allowed it where legal, it might accidentally happen where it was not and cause big problems for the locals.

I don't know.  I just know I could never find anything written on it from the church at that time. Anywhere. I did find in the handbook that as activities director the church suggested I have liability insurance. 

So it was either a rumor and everyone passed it on with the non existent health department/state law restriction or it was one of those letters from the church that never got in the handbook, but again given with non existent government restrictions.

think it may now be in the handbook, but I would not bet on that thinking.

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On 12/9/2020 at 12:26 PM, Calm said:

Also because the quality of the appliances would need to be upgraded and we would have to meet very stringent health department regulations as a public kitchen...or so I was told in Canada.  I assume it is the same down here in the States.

I was also told the Church self insures, if so no premiums.  Thinking it is the regulations that matter.  You would have to have trained cooks, etc. as well as the upgrades.  Water temperatures to sterilize plates and such would be dangerous for kids.  End up with fewer people being able to use them, I am guessing.

Are Canadians as litigious as Americans?  That's a shame.  Something else I'd ask, if it's cultural.  The Buddhist temples here as well as the Asian heavy Christian churches serve food all the time during festivals, no problem at all. 

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3 minutes ago, poptart said:

Are Canadians as litigious as Americans?  That's a shame.  Something else I'd ask, if it's cultural.  The Buddhist temples here as well as the Asian heavy Christian churches serve food all the time during festivals, no problem at all. 

No, they are not or weren’t when we lived there. There was a cap on medical malpractice as well as some other things I can’t remember that discouraged frivolous filings. Hopefully a Canadian with more and up to date info will post (can’t believe it has been over 15 years).

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8 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, they are not or weren’t when we lived there. There was a cap on medical malpractice as well as some other things I can’t remember that discouraged frivolous filings. Hopefully a Canadian with more and up to date info will post (can’t believe it has been over 15 years).

Hopefully it's still that way, I'm seeing a lot of covid related lawsuits pop up, with the shortage there's a quiet exodus of medical professionals.  Much like a lot of churches who were kinda ruined thanks to entitlement that's something else I think we'll see here.

 

Shame, it's fellowship that churches used to have back in the day that made people love them, now thanks to a few bad apples a lot of people are starting to hate religious people in general.

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On 12/9/2020 at 4:35 PM, ksfisher said:

If health regulations were being violated then the church wouldn’t allow it.  It’s food cooked by private individuals being served at a private event.  The organization (the church) is not cooking the food and it’s not selling the food to the public.

The organization is sponsoring the event - the organization is on the hook for any food born illness that results.

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On 12/9/2020 at 5:53 PM, Mike Livingston said:

That's what I'm talking about, we are definitely missing out on fellowship opportunities. The baptist church down the street has concerts with food trucks in the parking lot. The community of christ/ other mormons are 20 minutes from me and they do a monthly food pantry, it's not big, but its something. 

About 20 years ago, my ward began to cloister itself from the community. Some examples: All functions are in-ward functions (excepting 2 pre-2000 holiday events - also funerals). In scouting years, non-member merit badge counselors weren't allowed (at all) except at summer camp. Leadership went as far as cancelling scout camp once and sequestered the YM at a local sand bar/island instead.

Outreach suggestions were strongly, compulsively dismissed for 10 years or so until the Stake ordered one community event a year.  Following that we had a great yearly event with a local city - at least until we changed stakes. Outside of that, nothing.

Generally anything that might lead to the ward interacting with the community has long been a non-starter. 

Is it just our ward or is this trend occurring elsewhere?

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Not my wards, but since for 15 years I have been in small townish Utah, church is often community.  When we were first here, they would announce the irrigation schedule from the pulpit and the bulletin was full of community announcements. Irrigation is pretty much gone in our area due to building, but last time I saw a bulletin, still lots of community announcements like Music in the Park and the Farmers’ Market. 

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40 minutes ago, Chum said:

About 20 years ago, my ward began to cloister itself from the community. Some examples: All functions are in-ward functions (excepting 2 pre-2000 holiday events - also funerals). In scouting years, non-member merit badge counselors weren't allowed (at all) except at summer camp. Leadership went as far as cancelling scout camp once and sequestered the YM at a local sand bar/island instead.

Outreach suggestions were strongly, compulsively dismissed for 10 years or so until the Stake ordered one community event a year.  Following that we had a great yearly event with a local city - at least until we changed stakes. Outside of that, nothing.

Generally anything that might lead to the ward interacting with the community has long been a non-starter. 

Is it just our ward or is this trend occurring elsewhere?

Not here. My stake and ward participate in community food drives and other service type things frequently. For Light  the World we are supporting a local food bank. We worked so closely with the Mayor, he converted.

The only reason our scouts didn’t go to the regional scout camp at times is it was super expensive and the food was terrible.

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