Jump to content

How would you make a covenant or two-way promise with God?


Recommended Posts

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, but he didn’t make a deal for it.

I don’t think we can change the will of God via prayer but I do believe prayer is one of the factors God works in when He makes a choice. Not because He changes his mind but because the prayer is part of the reality He takes into account when acting. I also suspect there is some sense in which God has limited power to work miracles and the like that He would like to work due to the rules of this sphere of existence but that is a pet theory and not part of my general faith. If I am wrong I will laugh at myself and move on.

I like your theory. 

Could be wrong about Jared's Bro but I think his individual obedience and the groups' continued collective obedience were part of the deal/blessings/covenant.

 

Link to post
On 12/3/2020 at 12:57 PM, Ahab said:

You can ask our Father in heaven for whatever you want... we generally refer to that as "praying"... but you should realize that you don't have any promises or covenants on those things you ask for unless or until he tells you he will give you those things.

True.

He has told me.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/tithing?lang=eng

Link to post
23 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Didn't the Brother of Jared ask for what Jared suggest, which were specific blessings and that arrived at spacific times and took specific dhapes? 

Please dont' confound our langauge vs. If we're confounded please let us all speak the same new langauge

Please guide us to a new land vs any land or let is stay here Babel and live in peace

Absolutely. But I'm not seeing where Jared and his brother presented these petitions as covenants. Neither did the Lord give them obligations in return for these blessings (at least in Ether Chapter 1). This did not occur until He led them beyond the sea of the wilderness in Chapter 2, to the land of promise, and it is described as a decree, not a covenant. It is interesting tome that "covenant"never appears in the Book of Ether at all, except in Moroni's prophecies about Israel (4:14-15) and the Gentiles for that matter (4:13). I think the Jaredites would qualify as Gentiles. In the Book of Mormon, there are promises and prophecies to the Gentiles but no covenants (they get the covenants when they join Israel; 1 Nephi 13:23 is an example of this).

  • Like 1
Link to post

Promise is a synonym of covenant. Perhaps what we're all discussing here is analogous to saying heads or tails of the same coin.

promise

word of honor

word

assurance

pledge

vow

guarantee

oath

bond

undertaking

agreement

commitment

contract

covenant

covenant

contract

compact

treaty

pact

accord

deal

bargain

settlement

concordat

protocol

entente

agreement

arrangement

decree

order

edict

command

commandment

mandate

proclamation

dictum

fiat

promulgation

precept

law

statute

act

bill

 

Link to post
9 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Promise is a synonym of covenant. Perhaps what we're all discussing here is analogous to saying heads or tails of the same coin.

It can be, but I'm not using it as a synonym. :) There is no two-way commitment proposed in a promise.

An example of decree-as-covenant is the Homeowner's Association Covenants or the articles and covenants of a church. There is nothing 2-way about these; we are being told how things are done and we can decide to stick with the association or church or not.

https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-covenant-and-vs-promise/ "The main difference between a covenant and a promise is that while, in a covenant, both parties have clear obligations and responsibilities, in a promise, this characteristic cannot be observed. Instead, in a promise, what we can observe is the active role undertaken by one party while the other remains passive." 

A head and a tail are different after all. Perhaps all these synonyms can be considered to be facets of a very complex cut gem, the gem representing the interactions between God and His children.

  • Like 1
Link to post
1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, my servants, that inasmuch as you haveforgiven one another your trespasses, even so I, the Lord, forgive you.
 
D&C 82:10. “I, the Lord, Am Bound When Ye Do What I Say”. This verse shows a part of God's basic nature: the way ...
 
Apr 7, 2016 — I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise. Doctrine & Covenants 82:10. Read in ...
DC 82:10 when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise. Boyd K. Packer. I would like to tell the young people of an experience I had when I was a very young ...

I bolded the one that is the one, thanks. I don't like it. It's hard to imagine HF bounded to us. But I have heard a preacher, or one the other day, that demanded to get blessings. And quite forcefully.

Link to post

In mission fields the idea of personally adapted covenants (usually for a mission goal) crops up a lot but any time an apostle gets wind of it it usually ends up squashed. I am basing a lot of my wariness for the concept on that. If God is revealing a private deal to someone via revelation that is very different as God can do what He likes. I am just very hesitant when people are seeking to initiate such an agreement and may take their enthusiasm or desire as evidence of God’s consent.

  • Like 2
Link to post
  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/2/2020 at 8:33 PM, nuclearfuels said:

I'm relying 100% on God to help me reach a not too distant goal (3-5 years).

I've offered to Him in prayer things I'm willing to offer in exchange for His guidance. Not small things but really big things.

I've also increased certain types of personal sacrifice as part of my request for His guidance.

But what do you do? or what would you do if you had a clear vision of what  you wanted, you worked hard and sacrificed to get there, how would you approach God without annoying Him w/ the same prayer/request every day?

While some may see this as me trying to bribe God or guilt trip Him or reverse-psychologize Him into giving me what I want, I'm not sure He's susceptible to those m our petitionethods.

For those of you like some in my family who see the idea of covenanting w/ God outside of Church ordinances to be presumptuous and quite unacceptable, I'm just that type of heathen- can't help it...and I also like to think about where the BoM took place geographically, so be careful when working with my ilk. 

The intention and effort are noted and noble but we can NOT "force" God into a covenant. Other than our true devotion and faith, there is absolutely nothing that we can offer God. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.." Isa 64:6. Further, in Mosiah 2:21 we read: "I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another–I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants." 

In both passages we see the same principle; there is nothing we can offer God since we have nothing and we are nothing. But our Father in Heaven is a merciful and gracious God and He grants our petitions and supplications according to His will and purpose. Thus, our fundamental task lays in submitting our will and desires to His. We can pray in faith and desire to achieve X but we should seek, first and foremost to do His work and His will and the Spirit will guide and notch us on the way we should go. And then, "He will give us the desires of our hearts" (Psa. 37:4), meaning that the desires of our heart will be placed there by Him. Frequently people claim they pray to determine if they should move here or there, or take this job or another. For all practical purposes, people are seeking validation for what THEY want to do and achieve from a personal, financial or emotional standpoint. But it has absolutely nothing to do with the will, purpose or the things of God. The "health and wealth" myth has infected the (people) Church big time. Where you work, how you dress, how much money you make and where you live is irrelevant when the kingdom of God is concerned. I assure you, there are people that get up a lot earlier than you, work harder, longer, earn a fraction of what you make, are persecuted for their testimony of Jesus Christ but have a faith the size of Mount Everest. And they will NEVER reach the economic level or lifestyle we enjoy in this country. What you describe in your post would never cross their minds. For them, Christ is the way and means of salvation from eternal death and hell, not a conduit to achieving anything personal or material. Please,, don't take my words as criticism; it is not my intention. I just thought that it was worth a try to call your attention to the fact that we can, easily, lose sight of the true meaning and character of our relationship with our Heavenly Father.

Food for thought?

  • Like 1
Link to post

Your 100% correct in going to God and trying to bargain with him. That's what a 2 way relationship is, a back and forth, and I think you should expect to get something back. Actually, your already bargaining with god if your a full tithe payer. He's already made a bargain with you, if you pay a full tithe, he's promised not to burn you on the day of vengeance, dozens of general conference talks on that subject. Also if you pay a full tithe you've been promised a plethora of blessings, if you keep up your end of the bargain. 

  I own multiple small businesses  and every time I went to God for help in starting one I offered him a chunk of my personal time in return for guidance and blessings. I promised to work balls to the wall and after that, I set aside a small amount of time daily to do something I think he would do if he was walking the earth. I know it sounds kinda crazy, but for me, my bargain was something as small as stopping my car and retrieving a trashcan out of a ditch for a neighbor and standing it upright. That 30 second deed I  did specifically for God, helped me daily in making correct decisions by keeping positive during the day. I kept that up until I achieved my goal.

  So yes rely on God 100%, offer him what you deem necessary, but be flexible because his guidance and what he offers back might be totally different than what your expecting. 

    Just dont offer him one of your kids🤣🤣

  • Like 1
Link to post
On 12/17/2020 at 1:26 AM, Islander said:

The intention and effort are noted and noble but we can NOT "force" God into a covenant. Other than our true devotion and faith, there is absolutely nothing that we can offer God. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.." Isa 64:6. Further, in Mosiah 2:21 we read: "I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another–I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants." .....

Food for thought?

THe fact that God cant' decide not to bless you or me, after our obedience, is a truly revolutionary fact.

  • Like 1
Link to post
On 12/16/2020 at 11:26 PM, Islander said:

The intention and effort are noted and noble but we can NOT "force" God into a covenant. Other than our true devotion and faith, there is absolutely nothing that we can offer God. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.." Isa 64:6. Further, in Mosiah 2:21 we read: "I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another–I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants." 

In both passages we see the same principle; there is nothing we can offer God since we have nothing and we are nothing. 

I'm sorry but I don't believe that interpretation of those scriptures at all.  I think God places far more worth on us than you seem to.  We are literally his work and his glory, his eternal offspring destined to become just like he is.

Edited by JLHPROF
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Quote

What is the source of such moral and spiritual power, and how do we obtain it? The source is God. Our access to that power is through our covenants with Him. A covenant is an agreement between God and man, an accord whose terms are set by God (see Bible Dictionary, “Covenant,” 651). In these divine agreements, God binds Himself to sustain, sanctify, and exalt us in return for our commitment to serve Him and keep His commandments.

We enter into covenants by priesthood ordinances, sacred rituals that God has ordained for us to manifest our commitment.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2009/04/the-power-of-covenants?lang=eng

From the Bible Dictionary:

Quote

Covenant
Sometimes denotes an agreement between persons (1 Sam. 23:18) or nations (1 Sam. 11:1); more often between God and man; but in this latter case it is important to notice that the two parties to the agreement do not stand in the relation of independent and equal contractors. God in His good pleasure fixes the terms, which man accepts. The same word is sometimes rendered “testament.”

The gospel is so arranged that principles and ordinances are received by covenant, placing the recipient under strong obligation and responsibility to honor the commitment. Thus the severe consequences to Ananias and Sapphira, who deliberately broke their covenant and lied unto God (Acts 5:1)

Excellent BYU devotional by Paul V Johnson on the subject:

https://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/Transcripts/Devotionals/2001_11_20_Johnson.htm

I remember on my mission back in '98 - we would set mission covenants where we would promise to wake up an hour earlier, make 10 more street contacts/week, give out 5 more BoM's, read the scriptures for longer, etc. etc. etc. in exchange for _____ mission baptisms.   Whenever we didn't quite hit those numbers, our mission president would shame us for not keeping our end of the bargain.   I always hated that.  It never felt right.  Luckily, since then missions have been informed that such "covenant" making is inappropriate. 

We can ask for things in prayer, and we can make personal promises with the Lord like the Anti-Nephi-Lehi's did, but I think it is inappropriate to attempt bind God in a covenant that we arbiter. 

Edited by pogi
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
8 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

THe fact that God cant' decide not to bless you or me, after our obedience, is a truly revolutionary fact.

You really do not understand scripture. You think you "merit" something because of obedience and that is just prideful talk. God blesses us because He wants to do so. He bestows upon us blessings not because of perfection in obedience but because of His love for us. His grace and mercy are the evidence of such love. The idea that you can derive blessings because of righteousness and outside of God's providence is pharisaic theology. Jesus destroyed their corrupt theology in Matthew 5. Read it. 

Link to post
7 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm sorry but I don't believe that interpretation of those scriptures at all.  I think God places far more worth on us than you seem to.  We are literally his work and his glory, his eternal offspring destined to become just like he is.

You just don't want to read it that way because it interferes with your own. When He said MY work and MY glory He is excluding the work and the glory of any and everybody else. I just pointed out that there is no blessing that can be "extracted" from anywhere on account of personal so-called "righteousness". The worth that we have is derived from God. Apart from that we are nothing for we are ALL sinners that have fallen short of the glory of God and without a Savior, whom we must confess as our Redeemer and mediator thru His Atonement, we were all destined for destruction. So that is my point.

Link to post
1 hour ago, Islander said:

You just don't want to read it that way because it interferes with your own. When He said MY work and MY glory He is excluding the work and the glory of any and everybody else. I just pointed out that there is no blessing that can be "extracted" from anywhere on account of personal so-called "righteousness". The worth that we have is derived from God. Apart from that we are nothing for we are ALL sinners that have fallen short of the glory of God and without a Savior, whom we must confess as our Redeemer and mediator thru His Atonement, we were all destined for destruction. So that is my point.

Again, I simply don't agree with this at all.    And I don't think the restored gospel takes this doctrine to the same extreme you do.

The gospel is entirely about us becoming exactly like God.  You seem determined to make the divide as wide as possible.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
2 hours ago, Islander said:

You really do not understand scripture. You think you "merit" something because of obedience and that is just prideful talk. God blesses us because He wants to do so. He bestows upon us blessings not because of perfection in obedience but because of His love for us. His grace and mercy are the evidence of such love. The idea that you can derive blessings because of righteousness and outside of God's providence is pharisaic theology. Jesus destroyed their corrupt theology in Matthew 5. Read it. 

It's been a while since I saw such false doctrine from a Church member.  (I am remembering you're a member correctly right?)  This is pure protestantism, the very attitude that the restoration clarified.

Link to post

OP seems to have been reading Grant von Harrison’s Drawing on the Powers of Heaven.  That was big for a while in my mission, complete with (increasingly self-serving) “covenants”, (increasingly irrelevant) “sacrifices”, and (increasingly puerile) attacks on the “faithlessness” of those whose “covenants” failed to translate into quantifiable results on a preset timetable.

I don’t disagree with the theological  *possibility* that we can make a covenant with God for a particular outcome.  But my experience is that few have the spiritual maturity or humility to engage in the process on God’s terms.  More often, the process tends to lead one into a sort of fanaticism that conflates one’s own will for God’s will, promotes a purely transactional relationship with deity, and runs roughshod over the agency of others.  

  • Thanks 2
Link to post

nuclearfuels, one thing that I've realized from reading through your topic of discussion on this thread is there's people who see Heavenly Father more as a king, dictator of sorts, alot like my Christian family members, that he's unapproachable . Then there's others who see him more as a father figure, very approachable and receptive to our feelings and desires. I personally see him as a father figure and if your willing to rely on him 100% like you said you are in your opening statement, then by all means,  pray to him and use him as your rock. That's what fathers are for. Dont listen to anyone who says you dont understand scripture. 

Link to post
4 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

nuclearfuels, one thing that I've realized from reading through your topic of discussion on this thread is there's people who see Heavenly Father more as a king, dictator of sorts, alot like my Christian family members, that he's unapproachable . Then there's others who see him more as a father figure, very approachable and receptive to our feelings and desires. I personally see him as a father figure and if your willing to rely on him 100% like you said you are in your opening statement, then by all means,  pray to him and use him as your rock. That's what fathers are for. Dont listen to anyone who says you dont understand scripture. 

Like!!

I know there are a lot of members who probably need HF because of not having a mortal father there for them. So I'm glad they get comfort especially when this happens. Or many that gravitate to the church's ward families, because of lack of family in their lives. If the church is true or not, this is a good thing. And from my experiences the church should be a pretty safe and good place for these members hopefully. Just going by my experiences and the care they've received, but it may be like a lottery too, not sure. But the odds are really good IMO, that they'll be loved and cared for.

Link to post
1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Like!!

I know there are a lot of members who probably need HF because of not having a mortal father there for them. So I'm glad they get comfort especially when this happens. Or many that gravitate to the church's ward families, because of lack of family in their lives. If the church is true or not, this is a good thing. And from my experiences the church should be a pretty safe and good place for these members hopefully. Just going by my experiences and the care they've received, but it may be like a lottery too, not sure. But the odds are really good IMO, that they'll be loved and cared for.

Tacenda, thank you for the like. I have a very simple view of the gospel, to me my Heavenly mother & Father are always together when I think of heaven. I know 99.99% of the time we talk of Heavenly Father in the church and I've heard different reasons for excluding Heavenly mother, but in my mind she's always there, right beside him. What's so bewildering to me on this thread nuclearfuel started is, the first 3 sentences he wrote are extremely positive, he shouldn't be getting any pushback for including his Heavenly Father in a plan he's probably thought about for a long time. When I read the first 3 sentences in his post I was inspired. And yes, I understand he asked for opinions, but I dont understand how a member would tell someone that's not how it works, god doesn't work that way. Because everyone interprets the scriptures differently. Ultimately, after being on this board for almost 2 weeks now, I'm starting to see Mormonism in a different light. There's alot more fear of Gods judgement throughout Mormonism than What I thought.  I Dont fear God one bit. I see my relationship with my Heavenly parents no different than my relationship with my kids. And my kids never fear me, except when I eat Mexican food. 

Edited by AtlanticMike
Spelling
Link to post
1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Ultimately, after being on this board for almost 2 weeks now, I'm starting to see Mormonism in a different light. There's alot more fear of Gods judgement throughout Mormonism than What I thought.  

I think your response is interesting because I don’t see fear of God as the motivation behind the disagreement. It is always so interesting to me how different we all see the world from each other, even for those that share fundamental ideas and beliefs. 

Link to post
10 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think your response is interesting because I don’t see fear of God as the motivation behind the disagreement. It is always so interesting to me how different we all see the world from each other, even for those that share fundamental ideas and beliefs. 

I could definitely be wrong in using the word fear. I've never really discussed Mormonism with people that aren't in my neck of the woods so this is new to me. But I detect a lot of evangelical leanings when I read through not just this thread, but many others. I'll be reading and think, dang that's something my Baptist uncle would say. But I think it's great. I hope I haven't  told anyone how to interpret scriptures while communicating on here, because I think it's great people have different opinions. I think people forget religion can be used as a drug to calm the mind, and that's what your seeing in the different opinions on this board. Your seeing how people use religion to cope with the good and mostly the bad experiences we face everyday. That can only bring a million different "correct" answers.

 

Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Alaris
      https://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2018/12/an-introduction-to-davidic-servant.html
      I don't typically post my articles here on mormondialogue.org; however, I took it upon myself to write an article that serves as an introduction to the Davidic Servant. The article serves as a foundation of who he is, why he is, and who he isn't. The Davidic Covenant serves as the core of understanding the Davidic Servant as does Isaiah chapter 11.
      My blog is not monetized, and I care neither for subscribers or views for the sake of such. However, I do care deeply about this topic and want to spread awareness among my fellow members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Why is awareness important? I have witnessed the tendency to shoehorn prophecies into that which is known and familiar which often translates to that which has transpired already or linking prophecies to known individuals.  I understand why folks do this as the idea of an important, unknown end times servant causes much cognitive dissonance. The Davidic Servant is not Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith, or John the Beloved. Perhaps the most interesting evidence for this is an excerpt from the Times and Seasons that demonstrates the early saints in fact believed in the Davidic Servant and stated he was none of these people (look for the large section of orange text - Times and Seasons excerpt is taken from Joseph Smith Papers project)
      1 Chronicles 17 is a great synopsis of the Davidic Covenant:
      1 Chronicles 17:11 ¶ And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
      12 He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.
      13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
      14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
      15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
      Zechariah 6 ties into the Davidic Covenant as well and provides a beautiful summary of who this man is and where he is on his eternal progression.
      Zechariah 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:
      13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
      We are anointed to become Priests and Kings in the Holy Temple. The Davidic Servant is a Priest becoming a King pure and simple. That is where he is on his eternal progression and the fact his ascension is such a big deal speaks to the process of how men become Gods. 
      Please feel free to read the article and chime in with thoughts, questions, and friendly debate. I will do my very best to not feed any trolls.
       
       
×
×
  • Create New...