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3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Well, I'm not really here to talk about my position on race (I support BLM, for the record), but you are now engaging in a false equivalency.  What happened to George Floyd was a clear and flagrant improper use of force borne from decades of systematic racism in law enforcement.  In short, the "punishment" didn't remotely fit the alleged "crime."  Criticizing Kwaku El for behaving in a tasteless and inappropriate fashion is about his activities on social media.  There is nothing in the criticisms that I have seen which are out-sized when compared to his conduct.  I'm willing to admit I am wrong if you can show me otherwise.  I think you are shamelessly making this an issue of race in order to divert attention from FM's poor choices on this and I think you doing so cheapens the real criticisms of racism.

Like I said, I get it. Sadly, this is how so many avoid talking about racism or the implications of it. How easy it is to just wave a hand and announce something has nothing to do with race at all. This is the point you are missing and missing big because you immediately fly into a denial that racism exists, this is a little too close to the Central Park lady calling the police on a black guy over a disagreement. Regardless of who is the villain, it is a bad look when it comes to power plays, and frankly, bad behavior aside, this is what this is.  Especially in Utah which is somewhat of a white bastion. 

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8 minutes ago, juliann said:

Like I said, I get it. Sadly, this is how so many avoid talking about racism or the implications of it. How easy it is to just wave a hand and announce something has nothing to do with race at all. This is the point you are missing and missing big because you immediately fly into a denial that racism exists, this is a little too close to the Central Park lady calling the police on a black guy over a disagreement. Regardless of who is the villain, it is a bad look when it comes to power plays, and frankly, bad behavior aside, this is what this is.  Especially in Utah which is somewhat of a white bastion. 

Well, I'm not talking about Dehlin calling the police (which seems pretty pointless to me, btw). I'm talking about your cries of racism from the beginning. 

Edited by ttribe
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48 minutes ago, juliann said:

FM was sued by forget her name Lighthouse person because of a parody of her website by a member of FM on his personal site. She lost and set case law for the 10th circuit.  (I don't feel the need to express my distaste over the thing repeatedly but I have).   I'm wondering if parody laws cover this. 

I'm not a lawyer, but you're conflating two legal issues here: One has to do with potentially-infringing use of copyrighted material, and the other has to do with whether the video posted by Kwaku could constitute an immediate threat or an incitement to violence.  Under copyright law, parody is a protected use, so Kwaku might be protected from suit (or, at least, probably, he would prevail) if the filmmakers were to attempt to sue him for allegedly violating their copyright, but that has nothing to do with the question of whether his work could be considered an immediate threat or an incitement to violence.

Edited by Kenngo1969
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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think she's suggesting that it looks a little bit "Karen" for a middle-aged white guy to call the police on a young black guy for something that (though HORRIBLE and in EXTREMELY bad taste) isn't an actual threat to Dehlin's safety. 

If the  middle-aged white guy had called the police to complain about a young black guy, I might agree - and agree (at least to some extent) with juliann.

As far as we know, Dehlin made no mention of Kwaku's colour when he called the police. 

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3 minutes ago, Malc said:

If the  middle-aged white guy had called the police to complain about a young black guy, I might agree - and agree (at least to some extent) with juliann.

As far as we know, Dehlin made no mention of Kwaku's colour when he called the police. 

I honestly didn't know that that was the defining issue.  Whether or not the person specifically brought up the person's color when they called the police.  

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15 minutes ago, ttribe said:

Well, I'm not talking about Dehlin calling the police (which seems pretty pointless to me, btw). I'm talking about your cries of racism from the beginning. 

My cries of racism? That is what you call it?  Funny you never said a thing until I asked if Dehlin had thought this through.....

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9 minutes ago, Malc said:

If the  middle-aged white guy had called the police to complain about a young black guy, I might agree - and agree (at least to some extent) with juliann.

As far as we know, Dehlin made no mention of Kwaku's colour when he called the police. 

Why would he.  Won't it be fairly obvious he is black?

My comment actually had nothing to do with anything other than the optics of a older white man turning a black kid in over a video. But look at what it has unleashed in the let's all be color blind for now comments.  That is what is telling. *I'll add to that that racism is all about power. Who is in power here? A guy making $200+K a year pretty much mocking a black kid's religion.... or a college kid doing dumb, distasteful, inappropriate stuff?  Optics matter.

I'm assuming that no one here actually thinks Kwaku had plans to kill anybody with a bat, correct? 

Edited by juliann
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2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I honestly didn't know that that was the defining issue.  Whether or not the person specifically brought up the person's color when they called the police.  

I don't believe that that was the defining issue - that's why I don't understand why it matters at all.

I wonder why juliann is making a point about a middle-aged white guy complaining to the police about a young black guy. If the complaint didn't refer to colour, why should it matter what colour or age either is..

I assume that you're not suggesting that Kwaku's colour gives him a free pass here - or that Dehlin's colour means that he should keep quiet. (btw, that's not a snark - I really mean that I'm making that assumption, informed by your previous posts that I've read.)

If we knew nothing about the colour of either party, the basis of the complaint, and it's validity, would not be altered. Likewise for their ages.

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15 minutes ago, juliann said:

My cries of racism? That is what you call it?  Funny you never said a thing until I asked if Dehlin had thought this through.....

I'm not a Dehlin fan, if that's what you're implying. Never have been. I don't care for his drama or his attempt at building a cult following.

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16 minutes ago, juliann said:

Why would he.  Won't it be fairly obvious he is black?

My comment actually had nothing to do with anything other than the optics of a older white man turning a black kid in over a video. But look at what it has unleashed in the let's all be color blind for now comments.  That is what is telling. *I'll add to that that racism is all about power. Who is in power here? A guy making $200+K a year pretty much mocking a black kid's religion.... or a college kid doing dumb, distasteful, inappropriate stuff?  Optics matter.

I'm assuming that no one here actually thinks Kwaku had plans to kill anybody with a bat, correct? 

To whom would it be obvious that Kwaku is black, and when would that be obvious? For example, when I first heard of him I didn't know if Kwaku was his IRL name, and made no assumptions about his age or colour. Knowing that it is his real name still doesn't tell me that he is black, only that it's not a typical anglo-saxon name.

And surely you're not suggesting that Dehlin is mocking Kwaku's religion because Kwaku is a black kid, right? (assuming, for the sake of argument, that Dehlin is mocking Kwaku's religion)

If Kwaku had been a middle-age white guy, nothing in the complaint would be altered.

And what on earth does Dehlin's income have to do with anything? Are the concerns wealthy folks to be disregarded? (btw, I'm not arguing for wealthy folks because I'm in Dehlin's income bracket - closer to 10% of his income) 

Edited by Malc
to correct a typo
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10 minutes ago, Malc said:

I don't believe that that was the defining issue - that's why I don't understand why it matters at all.

I wonder why juliann is making a point about a middle-aged white guy complaining to the police about a young black guy. If the complaint didn't refer to colour, why should it matter what colour or age either is..

I assume that you're not suggesting that Kwaku's colour gives him a free pass here - or that Dehlin's colour means that he should keep quiet. (btw, that's not a snark - I really mean that I'm making that assumption, informed by your previous posts that I've read.)

If we knew nothing about the colour of either party, the basis of the complaint, and it's validity, would not be altered. Likewise for their ages.

I think Kwaku's behavior has been thoroughly trashed. Have you found anyone who supports it? It's time to put that to bed. 

Are you saying that in today's climate, it is a good look for a wealthy white man (that no one has said was in any danger)  to turn a black college kid in  to the police over a tasteless video( after ongoing disputes?) 

Surely you read the news reports of instances such as this. Why is it considered ok in Utah? I find it shocking, frankly. But I'm from CA. 

 

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Seriously you guys!!  OH MY GOSH! Start reading up about what racism IS! 

Oh my gosh!

It isn't that someone is racist, if that is a distinction, but they can do things that are now considered racist. (I have not called anyone racist, BTW). 

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4 minutes ago, juliann said:

I think Kwaku's behavior has been thoroughly trashed. Have you found anyone who supports it? It's time to put that to bed. 

Are you saying that in today's climate, it is a good look for a wealthy white man (that no one has said was in any danger)  to turn a black college kid in  to the police over a tasteless video( after ongoing disputes?) 

Surely you read the news reports of instances such as this. Why is it considered ok in Utah? I find it shocking, frankly. But I'm from CA. 

 

I'm often at least as "surprised" as you are at behaviour that's OK in Utah - I'm from Canada!

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20 hours ago, Malc said:

I'm often at least as "surprised" as you are at behaviour that's OK in Utah - I'm from Canada!

One of the first things I did after starting FM (which I retired from) was to deal with racism. We got a BlackLDS site up pretty quick to overcome all of the racist folklore after the first fumbling years. So I've been heavily invested in that. But I have to look back even then and see that as hard as we tried, we still were racist. (Just like sexism.) And it's only been since BLM and the new emphasis on ridding ourselves of the microaggressions that I have seen I'm still very flawed no matter how hard I try. One only has to listen to Black LDS tell their stories to hear this. Is no one here doing that??

I can't defend what Kwaku did. But the very fact that he is the only one under the gun here is mighty uncomfortable. I saw two or three guys in those videos. And he and a white guy retweeted that horrid snuff video. Hello? And who does Dehlin call the cops on? Well, not the white guy. *correction, he did report all three. 

Edited by juliann
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10 minutes ago, Malc said:

I'm often at least as "surprised" as you are at behaviour that's OK in Utah - I'm from Canada!

Well, welcome to our weird little clan here. We have several of your kind. LOL

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I am out of this the next day or two. Too much going on to put the time into educating myself about what is being debated. This does not mean I think something is indefensible, so not even trying.

I will come back to it if this is still a thing next week assuming stuff at home quiets down (my daughter is giggling a bit with her second try with the medical cannabis, so here’s hoping it does help with her anxiety).

My apologies if you were looking for me to convey a FM response if there is one. I advise to check our Facebook page or blog, though I can’t guarantee there will be one because not reading the conversation there either so I have no idea of the direction it is taking either. 

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am out of this the next day or two. Too much going on to put the time into educating myself about what is being debated. This does not mean I think something is indefensible, so not even trying.

I will come back to it if this is still a thing next week assuming stuff at home quiets down (my daughter is giggling a bit with her second try with the medical cannabis, so here’s hoping it does help with her anxiety).

My apologies if you were looking for me to convey a FM response if there is one. I advise to check our Facebook page or blog, though I can’t guarantee there will be one because not reading the conversation there either so I have no idea of the direction it is taking either. 

I'm so happy if your daughter gets relief, let us know! And don't worry about this thread, haha!

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2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I'm so happy if your daughter gets relief, let us know! And don't worry about this thread, haha!

I will report in the Social Hall thread. The dispensary was a great experience. Very professional, had a pharmacist that walked us through everything. 

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, juliann said:

And who does Dehlin call the cops on? Well, not the white guy. 

Dehlin reported three people. Two of them are "white guys", if that matters.

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Everyone there is some crossposting going on.  We need to stop it.  I don’t care what David’s opinion and calls for boycotts are.  Nor do I care about John’s latest self promoting drama.  Unfortunately if I hide the content it’ll rip holes in the thread. So let’s cooperate and not bring in outside discussions from this point forward. 
 

Nemesis

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2 hours ago, juliann said:

...And who does Dehlin call the cops on? Well, not the white guy. 

Dehlin's complaint was posted on page 8 of this thread. It shows 3 people, Kwaku El, Cardon Ellis and Braden Herrmann. I'm going to assume there's a chance one of those two other guys is white.

M.

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13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

 Kwaku's a young guy and youth right now aren't so sheltered. And this probably doesn't phase them in the slightest.

I think you might find that it's not just 'young guys' who aren't fazed by the scene in question, which as noted by smac97, comes from a very popular Quentin Tarantino production:

Quote

Inglourious Basterds grossed over $321 million in theaters worldwide, making it Tarantino's highest-grossing film to that point, until it was surpassed in box office by Django Unchained (2012) and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood (2019). The film received widespread acclaim and multiple awards and nominations, among them eight Academy Award nominations ...

The film received four Golden Globe Award nominations including Best Motion Picture – Drama and Best Supporting Actor for Waltz, who went on to win the award. The film also received three Screen Actors Guild Award nominations and went on to win the awards for Best Cast and Best Supporting Actor, which was awarded to Waltz. The film was nominated for six BAFTA Awards, including Best Director for Tarantino ...

The film received an eight- to eleven-minute standing ovation from critics after its first screening at Cannes ...

My strong suspicion is that many people now pretending to be traumatised and outraged by the (to me genuinely grotesque and gratuitous) violence of this scene were perfectly fine with it until a couple of days ago.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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