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[Calm]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

He is trying to make it in the world just like the rest of us and it looks like he did it largely on his own

He is the only convert in his family of liberal Christians. He was so worried about his family reaction he didn’t tell his parents until after he was baptized. Thankfully they reacted well. 

For exmormons who worry about their family’s reaction to them walking away from the family’s beliefs, I would have thought there might be more empathy. 
 

It is also strange to me criticism has been focused on Kwaku from the beginning when his fellow host, Brad, was just as critical. Brad looks older too, though I don’t know if he is. I need to check into his background. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Calm

[Nemesis]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It is also strange to me criticism has been focused on Kwaku from the beginning when his fellow host, Brad, was just as critical. Brad looks older too, though I don’t know if he is. I need to check into his background. 

Race/Racism.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Nemesis said:

Racism.  

Yep. Our critics -- both internal and external -- long ago decided that the only Black members allowed to have a voice are those whose voices are likewise critical, though they are willing to grudgingly tolerate those who 'play nice'. There is zero chance these people would be calling him out for 'mockery' if he were directing his considerable rhetorical prowess at The Church of Jesus Christ.* They would be lapping it up, praising him for his bravery, calling him a truthteller and the voice of Black members everywhere, and so forth. But because he's a) taken a stand and b) taken the wrong stand, he must be named and shamed for being uppity ... even if they mask that reality with gentler sounding terms (unChristlike? outspoken?).

In addition, though I don't think he's seen any of these videos yet, I'm fairly confident my Africa-born housemate (also the only member in his family) would enjoy their style. He's made very similar comments to me in the past, and we've laughed and laughed over his brilliantly scathing observations of people like Dehlin. And then I start to wonder how much space we really have in the Church for genuine cultural differences and approaches that arise therefrom. I get the strong feeling that many members on this board haven't spent much time in predominantly African-American wards, as I did in America.

-----

*Does anyone remember the poster we had some years back, an African-American convert-turned-critic who both practised law and did stand-up comedy? He also posted on a critical board, and they loved him over there. What defines mockery in many cases is the target of one's humour.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Brad looks older too, though I don’t know if he is. I need to check into his background. 

Elder Witbeck was serving a full-time mission in NYC seven years ago.

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Elder Witbeck was serving a full-time mission in NYC seven years ago.

So probably 27 now. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Does anyone remember the poster we had some years back, an African-American convert-turned-critic who both practised law and did stand-up comedy? He also posted on a critical board, and they loved him over there. What defines mockery in many cases is the target of one's humour.

Found him! Sean Carter is his name. Unsurprisingly, he's done a Mormon Stories interview where he mercilessly mocks the Church, its members, our beliefs (and even this board!), and Dehlin happily laughs along with him. I won't link to it, but it's pretty easy to find online.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan

[Tacenda]

So disappointing to see some people say that the criticisms for Kwaku might be from racism. Out of the 5 or 6 of the "stoner" group (they joke that they are the "stoners" because of the name of the show), Kwaku is more outspoken and sort of comes off bad, not horribly but enough.  If any of you watched the last video I posted, it was the one about people with faith crises, it showed him do this a few times during the video, and his friends even acknowledge it.

Plus Kwaku put on the large dance party during covid with hardly anyone wearing a mask, as well as the photo of him with women in their bikinis. That's why people might criticize him, nothing to do with skin color. 

I quite like Brad (even though I never remembered his name until now) and even Kwaku. But I think Kwaku seems less secure and somewhat more immature than he did during the interview with Shawn. 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Tacenda

[Maureen]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

...It is also strange to me criticism has been focused on Kwaku from the beginning when his fellow host, Brad, was just as critical. Brad looks older too, though I don’t know if he is. I need to check into his background. 

IMO, I think Kwaku gets the most attention because he's the most familiar. He's been involved in the 3 Mormons, Saints Unscripted, Young/Dumb, now STONEXVI and This...Show; he gets around. He's also had his individual debates with the Evangelical crowd. It's only because of these new FM videos that everyone is learning about these other young fellas.

M.

[Nemesis]

24 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

24 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Plus Kwaku put on the large dance party during covid with hardly anyone wearing a mask, as well as the photo of him with women in their bikinis.

So? Would it have matter if he wasn’t defending the faith and black? The girls were white and young, are we shaming girls for what they choose to wear for swimming attire? Or upset that they posed with a black guy.
 

Nemesis

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

For exmormons who worry about their family’s reaction to them walking away from the family’s beliefs, I would have thought there might be more empathy. 

And yet do we worry about the ex-"whatevers" who go through the same to join our church?

Methinks we need a little more empathy for them as well.  Do we open our hearts, mouths, and hearts to the newly converted?  I think not, and that is why they are often soon to join the ex-mo lists, where, knowling us, they get more attention than they did as members.

We need to do better on both sides.

[Calm]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

And yet do we worry about the ex-"whatevers" who go through the same to join our church?

I do. I have given lectures to the soon to be missionaries and missionaries I know to always remember what they are asking investigators to put aside. And I know a number of other members who talk about investigators and converts the same way. I would like to see more recognition of it, but I don’t think these days there is a complete cluelessness. Especially when we talk about early pioneers and the sacrifices they make and then relate this to new converts. 

[Maureen]

43 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

So? Would it have matter if he wasn’t defending the faith and black?...

He wasn't defending the faith at the dance party and his dance party cohort is not black, so neither of those things should excuse his involvement in this activity that got a lot of attention for obvious reasons. And from my perspective, he likes the attention.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2020/09/20/how-two-somethings-their/

M.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Maureen

[Nemesis]

32 minutes ago, Maureen said:

He wasn't defending the faith at the dance party and his dance party cohort is not black, so neither of those things should excuse his involvement in this activity that got a lot of attention for obvious reasons. And from my perspective, he likes the attention.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/politics/2020/09/20/how-two-somethings-their/

M.

You missed my point. As in who cares that he threw a party?  No one would care if he wasn’t defending the faith and black.  
 

Nemesis

[Avatar4321]

On 11/30/2020 at 7:58 PM, bluebell said:

Yes. I have a friend who runs in those academic circles and she said he has a reputation for being shady. She said her member black friends in academia have cut ties with him. 

I know he has gotten grief from the more progressive members in Provo since they expect him as a black man to attack the Church and he defends it.

my brief interactions with him make me think he is a young man who believes but also really likes attention. Not bad per se but that can get you in trouble 

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yep. Our critics -- both internal and external -- long ago decided that the only Black members allowed to have a voice are those whose voices are likewise critical, though they are willing to grudgingly tolerate those who 'play nice'. There is zero chance these people would be calling him out for 'mockery' if he were directing his considerable rhetorical prowess at The Church of Jesus Christ.* They would be lapping it up, praising him for his bravery, calling him a truthteller and the voice of Black members everywhere, and so forth. But because he's a) taken a stand and b) taken the wrong stand, he must be named and shamed for being uppity ... even if they mask that reality with gentler sounding terms (unChristlike? outspoken?).

In addition, though I don't think he's seen any of these videos yet, I'm fairly confident my Africa-born housemate (also the only member in his family) would enjoy their style. He's made very similar comments to me in the past, and we've laughed and laughed over his brilliantly scathing observations of people like Dehlin. And then I start to wonder how much space we really have in the Church for genuine cultural differences and approaches that arise therefrom. I get the strong feeling that many members on this board haven't spent much time in predominantly African-American wards, as I did in America.

-----

*Does anyone remember the poster we had some years back, an African-American convert-turned-critic who both practised law and did stand-up comedy? He also posted on a critical board, and they loved him over there. What defines mockery in many cases is the target of one's humour.

From my observations this is one of the main reasons they don’t like him. He won’t tow the line.

Dehlin even did a rant the other day how unbelievable a young intelligent black man should be defending the Church. 
 

Kwaku has a lot of white progressives mad at him for defending the Church instead of their viewpoints.

And he calls them out in it.

[Meadowchik]

7 hours ago, juliann said:

It's called a CFR. If you refuse to respond you are required to back down or leave the thread. As I recall you did neither. 

Wrong. I responded to every one. 

[Meadowchik]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

I find a lot of this "tension" not to be of a very functional variety. That doesn't mean there cannot still be resolution, or that the willing cannot take away a useful lesson from it. I'm sure there will be resolution (functionality), to the extent lessons are learned. My observation is that the dysfunction could have been avoided by following the invitations as extended (which may have been beyond the personality and developmental constraints of the parties involved). The tension would then be helpful.

Can't disagree when you put it that way. Certainly gratitude and hope help balance out introspection.

Thanks for the excellent point.

[Hamba Tuhan]

One of the points that I have repeatedly tried to make in this forum is that there was nothing in the First Vision experience to 'cure' Joseph of his Trinitarianism. Imagine my surprise tonight to see the The Show guys make this very point as well. Well done!

Begins at 2:27.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Yep. Our critics -- both internal and external -- long ago decided that the only Black members allowed to have a voice are those whose voices are likewise critical, though they are willing to grudgingly tolerate those who 'play nice'. There is zero chance these people would be calling him out for 'mockery' if he were directing his considerable rhetorical prowess at The Church of Jesus Christ.* They would be lapping it up, praising him for his bravery, calling him a truthteller and the voice of Black members everywhere, and so forth. But because he's a) taken a stand and b) taken the wrong stand, he must be named and shamed for being uppity ... even if they mask that reality with gentler sounding terms (unChristlike? outspoken?).

In addition, though I don't think he's seen any of these videos yet, I'm fairly confident my Africa-born housemate (also the only member in his family) would enjoy their style. He's made very similar comments to me in the past, and we've laughed and laughed over his brilliantly scathing observations of people like Dehlin. And then I start to wonder how much space we really have in the Church for genuine cultural differences and approaches that arise therefrom. I get the strong feeling that many members on this board haven't spent much time in predominantly African-American wards, as I did in America.

-----

*Does anyone remember the poster we had some years back, an African-American convert-turned-critic who both practised law and did stand-up comedy? He also posted on a critical board, and they loved him over there. What defines mockery in many cases is the target of one's humour.

Do you mean Mormonewby?

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Do you mean Mormonewby?

I honestly don't remember his user name, but that sounds familiar. I wasn't surprised to read on the Mormon Stories page that he'd 'joined the church as a non-literal-believer'. I remember wondering how he'd ever got into the Church in the first place, but clearly the answer is that he hadn't.

[Scott Lloyd]

Just now, Hamba Tuhan said:

I honestly don't remember his user name, but that sounds familiar. I wasn't surprised to read on the Mormon Stories page that he'd 'joined the church as a non-literal-believer'. I remember wondering how he'd ever got into the Church in the first place, but clearly the answer is that he hadn't.

From your description, I’m fairly certain he’s who you’re talking about. I remember him quite well. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

I know he has gotten grief from the more progressive members in Provo since they expect him as a black man to attack the Church and he defends it.

They probably won't like the latest episode of 'Midnight Mormons' then, which addresses the damage progressivism has done to African-American communities and lives and how turning to God and revelation is the only answer.

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Nemesis said:

You missed my point. As in who cares that he threw a party?  No one would care if he wasn’t defending the faith and black.  
 

Nemesis

Well, in the context of why he may being picked on out of the rest of them context, and not for his skin color.

[smac97]

34 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well, in the context of why he may being picked on out of the rest of them context, and not for his skin color.

What are your thoughts about the John Dehlin video, where he was explicitly "picked on" for "his skin color?"

Quote

"...is that he doesn't speak like a, like many black people do.  He has a very English vernacular.  He doesn't have a black dialect.  So he speaks like a proper white person raised in Utah.  So he's the perfect figure for Mormonism, because he's basically like, seems like a white person with dark skin.  The way he talks.  The things he likes.  The way he dresses.  So, yeah..."

Thanks,

-Smac

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

They probably won't like the latest episode of 'Midnight Mormons' then, which addresses the damage progressivism has done to African-American communities and lives and how turning to God and revelation is the only answer.

Which is precisely why they need to see it.

people shouldn’t be afraid to hear hard things