Fair Mormon's new YouTube branding strategy

[Meadowchik]

2 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Thanks for clarifying. 

I would maintain that retweeting something with a Hashtag in no way means one agrees with everything associated with said hashtag. Nonetheless, I respect your right to a differing opinion. 

Of course I could be wrong, but I think there is something to it that is different to hashtagging. It is a new way of aggregating attention and support. It is a way for people to express an association with others and others' views while still maintaining some comfortable distance.

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, Analytics said:

As far as I can tell, he didn't construe the video as an "actual and legitimate threat to your safety." He construed it as something that was really disturbing that the police might want to know about. The claim you think he undermined was never made. 

 

Wait...what? We now call the police over something "really disturbing?" on the internet? Isn't that what Twitter has a reporting function for?

Quote

I don't think he used the word "threat." I think you are misconstruing the story. If you think he did report a "threat", CFR.

😵    And right back to the problem of him using an overworked community resource to report something that wasn't a threat to him.  I've heard of people doing that when their McDonald order was wrong, too. 

Quote

How would I know? You're the lawyer. And why ask such a weird hypothetical question? An attorney never did tell his client to use those specific words. In fact, I'm sure John Dehlin hasn't engaged the services of an attorney. CFR on your implication that he has an attorney.

You said he consulted a friend attorney.  Now he had to give him a retainer to count?  Why bring it up at all then? 

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Analytics said:

As far as I can tell, he didn't construe the video as an "actual and legitimate threat to your safety." He construed it as something that was really disturbing that the police might want to know about. The claim you think he undermined was never made. 

 

I don't think he used the word "threat." I think you are misconstruing the story. If you think he did report a "threat", CFR.

 

How would I know? You're the lawyer. And why ask such a weird hypothetical question? An attorney never did tell his client to use those specific words. In fact, I'm sure John Dehlin hasn't engaged the services of an attorney. CFR on your implication that he has an attorney.

So he thought the video might be illegal?  Sincere question to see if I understand what you are saying, as if something isn't a threat then that would seem to be the only other reason the police would need to be involved.

[Ipod Touch]

11 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

There's no "getting out" for people who are raised in the church with most of their family of friends in the church. I'd rather the environment we share be better for the believers and nonbelievers alike.

How does this image contribute to make "the environment we share [better] for the believers and nonbelivers alike"?

You cannot claim that the exmo/progmo form of crap-slinging at Church members is justifed while complaining that some of those members eventually get tired of being told how stupid they are and start fighting back.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Ipod Touch

[juliann]

Just now, Ipod Touch said:

How does this image contribute to make "the environment we share [better] for the believers and nonbelivers alike?

You cannot claim that the exmo/progmo form of crap-slinging at Church members is justifed while complaining that some of those members eventually get tired of being told how stupid they are and start fighting back.

Well, yes they can and boy do they. Which brings us back to what I think this is really about.....hypocrisy and double standards. Merely yelling at Mormons to stop when all we see is a steady stream of it from them isn't compelling.

[juliann]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

So he thought the video might be illegal?  Sincere question to see if I understand what you are saying, as if something isn't a threat then that would seem to be the only other reason the police would need to be involved.

You know what is really pathetic about what he has done? Women have been unable to get help for threatening stalkers (who eventually kill them) because real  threats are not considered to be actionable until something happens. Talk about white male privilege. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

Quote

Nobody is saying you can't.  Rather, I think the point here is that "reach{ing} out to the person" you have told the police has published an actual and legitimate threat to your safety rather undermines your claim that you think the threat was actual and legitimate.

As far as I can tell, he didn't construe the video as an "actual and legitimate threat to your safety."

Then his calling 911 was what?  A bit of kabuki theater?

If he didn't construe the video as a threat, then he possibly broke the law when he called 911.

Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(1)(a) defines an "emergency" as "a situation in which property or human life is in jeopardy and the prompt summoning of aid is essential to the preservation of human life or property."

"{A person is guilty of emergency reporting abuse if the person} reports an emergency or causes an emergency to be reported to any public, private, or volunteer entity whose purpose is to respond to fire, police, or medical emergencies, when the person knows the reported emergency does not exist."  Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(2)(c).  Violation of this provision is a class B misdemeanor.  Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(3)(b).  Reimbursement of costs/expenses is also required.  Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(4)(a).

"{A person is guilty of emergency reporting abuse if the person} makes a false report, or intentionally aids, abets, or causes a third party to make a false report, to an emergency response service, including a law enforcement dispatcher or a 911 emergency response service, if the false report claims that (i) an ongoing emergency exists; (ii) the emergency described in Subsection (2)(d)(i) currently involves, or involves an imminent threat of, serious bodily injury, serious physical injury, or death; and (iii) the emergency described in Subsection (2)(d)(i) is occurring at a specified location."  Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(2)(d).  Violation of this provision is a third (or possibly second) degree felony.  Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(3)(d).  Reimbursement of costs/expenses is also required.  Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(4)(a).

Well?  Was the video an emergency or not?  If it was an emergency, how so?  And if not, why did he call 911 about it?  And if not, did he commit a misdemeanor when he called 911?  A felony?  

Quote

He construed it as something that was really disturbing that the police might want to know about. The claim you think he undermined was never made. 

If he called 911 to report something that he knew was not an emergency, then he was wasting law enforcement time and resources.  And he did so for the purpose of . . . what?  To score points in response to a video meme?

Quote

Quote

John Dehlin called 911 about a "threat." 

I don't think he used the word "threat." I think you are misconstruing the story. If you think he did report a "threat", CFR.

Well, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.  I didn't think he would be so stupid as to publicly declare that he called 911 for something that wasn't a threat, that wasn't an emergency.

Quote

Quote

What legal purpose would there be for an attorney to tell his client to described Kwaku as "Kwaku El of FairMormon" and "funded by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints via the More Good Foundation and FAIRMormon" and ask for "suggestions" from YouTube commenters?

How would I know?

It was a rhetorical question.

Quote

You're the lawyer. And why ask such a weird hypothetical question? 

Again, it was a rhetorical question.  My sense is that an attorney would not do this, and that an attorney did not do this, and that Dehlin was just playing to his base by resorting to histrionics (while also attempting to create plausibility by claiming that he was just doing what his attorney told him to do).

Quote

An attorney never did tell his client to use those specific words. In fact, I'm sure John Dehlin hasn't engaged the services of an attorney. CFR on your implication that he has an attorney.

You're the one who introduced Dehlin's attorney into the conversation.

An attorney told Dehlin to call 911 about a video meme?  Color me skeptical about that.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 8, 2020 by smac97

[Nemesis]

Can’t we just chalk it up to typical Dehlin Drama and boosting this years proceeds to his coffers?

[Ipod Touch]

Just now, Nemesis said:

Can’t we just chalk it up to typical Dehlin Drama and boosting this years proceeds to his coffers?

I'm sure he will use the financial windfall to continue paying women far less than men for the same work.

[juliann]

6 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

I'm sure he will use the financial windfall to continue paying women far less than men for the same work.

I heard he laid off all his employees instead.

[juliann]

9 minutes ago, Nemesis said:

Can’t we just chalk it up to typical Dehlin Drama and boosting this years proceeds to his coffers?

I don't think he did call 911. I'm anxiously awaiting the story about how they arrested Kwaku and jailed because of his poor judgement in retweets and his lack of a "black dialect" though. 

[smac97]

23 minutes ago, juliann said:

I don't think he did call 911.

So he lied when he posted this on Facebook?

Quote

Dr. John Dehlin

December 5 at 12:39 PM · 

 

I took everyone’s advice. I called 911 and reported the following people:

Kwaku El
Cardon Ellis
Braden Herrmann

I told the dispatcher that at least two of the three are (as I understand it) employees and/or contractors of non-profits subsidized by the Mormon church (that being the More Good Foundation and FairMormon).

I’m waiting to hear back from the police. My family is highly distressed. Not fun. For the record, I only shared the videos publicly AFTER my kids found out. They follow Kwaku. Otherwise I would probably never have shared.

I’ve reported all of this to my sister, Julianne Hatton, who was on the FAIRMormon board up until a few days ago (though she says she knew nothing about this and has been trying to get off the board for many months). Not sure what she’ll do with the info.

Thanks to all who have shown support.

Either he told the truth (and hence misused 911 resources, and possibly committed a misdemeanor or felony), or he lied and took a bunch of people for a ride (as evidenced by the comments to his post).

He's not really looking good here.

Quote

I'm anxiously awaiting the story about how they arrested Kwaku and jailed because of his poor judgement in retweets and his lack of a "black dialect" though. 

Well, that was his guest (whatever her name was), right?

Thanks,

-Smac

EDIT: A few people are tweaking Mr. Dehlin's nose in the comments section of the above FB post:

 

These seem like harmless pokes/critiques.  Some of the other comments are, unfortunately, decidedly less so.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited December 8, 2020 by smac97

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

So he lied when he posted this on Facebook?

 

Yup, I'm going for he lied.

Quote

Either he told the truth (and hence misused 911 resources, and possibly committed a misdemeanor or felony), or he lied and took a bunch of people for a ride (as evidenced by the comments to his post).

 Which is why I'm going for the latter....

Quote

Well, that was his guest (whatever her name was), right?

That he didn't immediately stop and correct like a not racist person would do. He probably will now after advice from his lawyer friend. Or maybe he will crowdsource it. 

 

 

[Analytics]

1 hour ago, Judd said:

Do we know what Cardon knows about the timeline, and if he would have any reason to know when Dehlin called 911 in relation to sending him that message on the same day? I’m a little confused why you’re saying he ‘painted a story’ about that. John Dehlin called 911 on the same day he reached out to someone and you seem to be stretching for a reason as to why this makes sense from Dehlin’s perspective.

Basically right after Dehlin called the cops, he announced it on Facebook. So:

7:58 A.M. Dehlin tells Cardon in an IM he wants to be on Cardon's show

1:21 P.M. Dehlin calls cops

1:52 P.M. Dehlin posts on Facebook that he called the cops. This is when Cardon would have found out.

Sometime after that, Cardon replies to Dehlin's IM with, "Didn't you just call the cops on me?" 

I'm simply pointing out that Dehlin's original IM makes more sense knowing that it was written several hours before he called the cops, not after.

[Analytics]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

Wait...what? We now call the police over something "really disturbing?" on the internet? Isn't that what Twitter has a reporting function for?

I was told that if you think there is something the police might want to be aware of, emergency or not, it is appropriate to call 911. If it isn't an emergency the operator will happily transfer the call to the non-emergency line. Doing so is part of the job.

 

1 hour ago, juliann said:

😵    And right back to the problem of him using an overworked community resource to report something that wasn't a threat to him. 

Whether 911 is "overworked" probably varies from community to community, but I've been told that it is appropriate to call 911 to notify the police of something that they might be interested in knowing.

[let’s roll]

I invite each of us, in the spirit of following the admonition of Paul, to focus more on looking for, and noting, God’s children at their best and less time searching for, and annotating, God’s children at their worst.

Not calling out anyone in particular since I haven’t followed this thread closely...scanning the All Activity summary has provided a glimpse into the tone and substance of a sampling of the posts.

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I invite each of us, in the spirit of following the admonition of Paul, to focus more on looking for, and noting, God’s children at their best and less time searching for, and annotating, God’s children at their worst.

Not calling out anyone in particular since I haven’t followed this thread closely...scanning the All Activity summary has provided a glimpse into the tone and substance of a sampling of the posts.

There is a thread for lectures, please do it here and preserve this thread for discussion. Thanks.  https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73358-video-condemnation-thread-for-board-nannies/?tab=comments#comment-1210004583

 

[ttribe]

John Dehlin is a known quantity.  I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised by his flair for the dramatic, or even debating it at this point, other than as a means to deflect attention away from the real questions at hand; namely - Why does FAIR continue to associate itself with a figure who is regularly at the center of so much controversy?  I am speaking, of course, of Kwaku El, lest anyone construe my comment as a reference to John Dehlin.

[smac97]

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

John Dehlin is a known quantity. 

Is he?  Perspectives about his vary quite a bit.

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

I'm not sure why anyone would be surprised by his flair for the dramatic,

I'm not sure anyone here is "surprised."

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

or even debating it at this point,

Well, because there seem to be some debateable issues about what Mr. Dehlin has done here.  It's worth discussing.

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

other than as a means to deflect attention away from the real questions at hand; namely - Why does FAIR continue to associate itself with a figure who is regularly at the center of so much controversy?

Well, no.  There is plenty of discussion of both matters.  We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

  I am speaking, of course, of Kwaku El, lest anyone construe my comment as a reference to John Dehlin.

Got it.  We're having robust conversations about both Kwaku and Dehlin.

Thanks,

-Smac

[juliann]

22 minutes ago, Analytics said:

I was told that if you think there is something the police might want to be aware of, emergency or not, it is appropriate to call 911. If it isn't an emergency the operator will happily transfer the call to the non-emergency line. Doing so is part of the job.

 

Whether 911 is "overworked" probably varies from community to community, but I've been told that it is appropriate to call 911 to notify the police of something that they might be interested in knowing.

Remember also that we are in the middle of a covid crisis in this state as he decides to tie up 911 about a mean meme and then brag about it:

 

https://www.911.gov/needtocallortext911.html

An emergency is any situation that requires immediate assistance from the police, fire department or ambulance. Examples include:

 

• A fire
• A crime, especially if in progress
• A car crash, especially if someone is injured
• A medical emergency, especially for symptoms that require immediate medical attention

 

When you call 911, be prepared to answer the call-taker's questions, which may include:

 

• The location of the emergency, including the street address
• The phone number you are calling from
• The nature of the emergency
• Details about the emergency, such as a physical description of a person who may have committed a crime, a description of any fire that may be burning, or a description of injuries or symptoms being experienced by a person having a medical emergency

 

Remember, the call-taker's questions are important to get the right kind of help to you quickly. Be prepared to follow any instructions the call-taker gives you. Many 911 centers can tell you exactly what to do until help arrives, such as providing step-by-step instructions to aid someone who is choking or needs first aid or CPR. Do not hang up until the call-taker instructs you to do so.

[juliann]

• 
   

Quote

Remember, the call-taker's questions are important to get the right kind of help to you quickly. Be prepared to follow any instructions the call-taker gives you. Many 911 centers can tell you exactly what to do until help arrives, such as providing step-by-step instructions to aid someone who is choking or needs first aid or CPR. Do not hang up until the call-taker instructs you to do so.

How many 911 dispatchers do we have? What would you have advised Dehlin to do in his moment of panic until the police arrived?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

35 minutes ago, Analytics said:

I was told that if you think there is something the police might want to be aware of, emergency or not, it is appropriate to call 911. If it isn't an emergency the operator will happily transfer the call to the non-emergency line. Doing so is part of the job.

 

Whether 911 is "overworked" probably varies from community to community, but I've been told that it is appropriate to call 911 to notify the police of something that they might be interested in knowing.

https://www.uca911.org/When-to-Call-911

Quote

911 should only to be used to report emergency situations.

An emergency is defined as any situation that requires immediate assistance from the police/sheriff, the fire department or an ambulance.

 

[Analytics]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Then his calling 911 was what?  A bit of kabuki theater?

If he didn't construe the video as a threat, then he possibly broke the law when he called 911.

Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(1)(a) defines an "emergency" as "a situation in which property or human life is in jeopardy and the prompt summoning of aid is essential to the preservation of human life or property."

"{A person is guilty of emergency reporting abuse if the person} reports an emergency or causes an emergency to be reported to any public, private, or volunteer entity whose purpose is to respond to fire, police, or medical emergencies, when the person knows the reported emergency does not exist."  Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(2)(c).  Violation of this provision is a class B misdemeanor.  Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(3)(b).  Reimbursement of costs/expenses is also required.  Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(4)(a).

"{A person is guilty of emergency reporting abuse if the person} makes a false report, or intentionally aids, abets, or causes a third party to make a false report, to an emergency response service, including a law enforcement dispatcher or a 911 emergency response service, if the false report claims that (i) an ongoing emergency exists; (ii) the emergency described in Subsection (2)(d)(i) currently involves, or involves an imminent threat of, serious bodily injury, serious physical injury, or death; and (iii) the emergency described in Subsection (2)(d)(i) is occurring at a specified location."  Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(2)(d).  Violation of this provision is a third (or possibly second) degree felony.  Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(3)(d).  Reimbursement of costs/expenses is also required.  Utah Code sec. 76-9-202(4)(a).

Well?  Was the video an emergency or not?  If it was an emergency, how so?  And if not, why did he call 911 about it?  And if not, did he commit a misdemeanor when he called 911?  A felony?  

My understanding is that the call went something like this:

Operator: "911. Is this an emergency?"

John: "No."

Operator: "How can I help you?"

John: "I'd like to file a police report."

Operator: "Please hold."

At that point, the call was transferred to the P.D.'s non-emergency line where an officer took his statement and filed a report. I don't know whether this is a crime or not.

 

Quote

You're the one who introduced Dehlin's attorney into the conversation.

That is simply false--I introduced Dehlin's: "friend who happens to be an attorney" into the conversation. Surely you know I didn't type "friend who happens to be an attorney" if I meant to imply that he was Dehlin's legal representative. 

 

Quote

An attorney told Dehlin to call 911 about a video meme?  Color me skeptical about that.

Why wouldn't an attorney know that transferring calls to a non-emergency line is routine for 911 dispatchers?

Edited December 8, 2020 by Analytics

[juliann]

2 minutes ago, Analytics said:

My understanding is that the call went something like this:

Operator: "911. Is this an emergency?"

John: "No."

Operator: "How can I help you?"

John: "I'd like to file a police report."

Operator: "Please hold."

At that point, the call was transferred to the P.D.'s non-emergency line where an officer took his statement and filed a report. I don't know whether this is a crime or not.

 

That is simply false--I introduced Dehlin's: "friend who happens to be an attorney" into the conversation. Surely you know I didn't type "friend who happens to be an attorney" if I meant to imply that he was Dehlin's legal representative. 

 

Why wouldn't a criminal defense attorney know that transferring calls to a non-emergency line is routine for 911 dispatchers?

I probably was the one who introduced the word attorney. 

As to transferring calls to non-emergency, that doesn't undo  making a false call in the first place.  I really don't think there is any way to pretty this one up. He stepped in it good while trying to do damage to others. The usual. 

[Ian Law]

I think one of the big problems here is that apologists seem to operate independently of the church. I could not imagine the church allowing or dismissing as "no big deal" with the acronym "TITS" if the videos were produced by CES insted of FM. And certainly I could not imagine apologists reposting and doubling down on violent and graphic videos against its critics if apologists were directly accountable to CES, the bishop, or the stake president for their calling. 

The big takeaway from these incidents is that the time has come for the church to exercise direct oversight over apologetics and apologists.