Jaredites and their animal cargo, elephants, etc?

[nuclearfuels]

Saw this in the Come Follow Me manual.

Don't remember reading about how they took elephants with them, before this current reading.

How big were the barges? Big enough to carry elephants? 

Told my kids they would have the chore of emptying out the leavings of the animals.

As for the curelom and cumom, suggestions from my neck of the woods include: alpaca, llama, mammoth, sasquatch, dragon, bats, donkey, burro, wild ponies, and others.

Curious to know your thoughts as a tapir, to me, doesn't seem as helpful as an elephant, per the record.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Saw this in the Come Follow Me manual.

Don't remember reading about how they took elephants with them, before this current reading.

How big were the barges? Big enough to carry elephants? 

Told my kids they would have the chore of emptying out the leavings of the animals.

As for the curelom and cumom, suggestions from my neck of the woods include: alpaca, llama, mammoth, sasquatch, dragon, bats, donkey, burro, wild ponies, and others.

Curious to know your thoughts as a tapir, to me, doesn't seem as helpful as an elephant, per the record.

If they were brought by sea (they aren't mentioned until Chapter 9 so likely not), maybe they were newborn elephants or mammoths of a smaller breed, maintained at a low metabolism during the year-long voyage. Otherwise they were already here.

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Saw this in the Come Follow Me manual.

Don't remember reading about how they took elephants with them, before this current reading.

How big were the barges? Big enough to carry elephants? 

Told my kids they would have the chore of emptying out the leavings of the animals.

As for the curelom and cumom, suggestions from my neck of the woods include: alpaca, llama, mammoth, sasquatch, dragon, bats, donkey, burro, wild ponies, and others.

Curious to know your thoughts as a tapir, to me, doesn't seem as helpful as an elephant, per the record.

Reminded me of the story of Noah as told by Bill Cosby:

"you let me go out there and do all this stuff here, you never even looked in the bottom of that ark, have you looked down there? NO! Who's gonna clean up that mess down there!? Not me,"

 

[Maidservant]

curelom = lomma = llama

[smac97]

34 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

curelom = lomma = llama

Just listen...

[rodheadlee]

Somewhere back in the archives we did a calculation on the size of the barges and what they could carry. Perhaps somebody good at searching to find it.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

Somewhere back in the archives we did a calculation on the size of the barges and what they could carry. Perhaps somebody good at searching to find it.

If this is not the thread (haven’t read it all), let me know.  The discussion about barges starts here, I believe...

 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Saw this in the Come Follow Me manual.

Don't remember reading about how they took elephants with them, before this current reading.

How big were the barges? Big enough to carry elephants? 

Told my kids they would have the chore of emptying out the leavings of the animals.

As for the curelom and cumom, suggestions from my neck of the woods include: alpaca, llama, mammoth, sasquatch, dragon, bats, donkey, burro, wild ponies, and others.

Curious to know your thoughts as a tapir, to me, doesn't seem as helpful as an elephant, per the record.

Some folks here believe that it is possible that the Book of Mormon happened in South East Asia. 

So that is a whole new set of arguments on top of all the other possible arguments.   It appears there is a paradigm that will solve any problem raised by other paradigms.  Or not solve any of them.   

But my story is better than anyone else's story.  I mean it will be,  once that I have one.  

I have a great idea!! Let's just read if for spiritual truths we can find!

Nah.

No fun in that.

 

Edited November 22, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Saw this in the Come Follow Me manual.

Don't remember reading about how they took elephants with them, before this current reading.

How big were the barges? Big enough to carry elephants? 

Told my kids they would have the chore of emptying out the leavings of the animals.

As for the curelom and cumom, suggestions from my neck of the woods include: alpaca, llama, mammoth, sasquatch, dragon, bats, donkey, burro, wild ponies, and others.

Curious to know your thoughts as a tapir, to me, doesn't seem as helpful as an elephant, per the record.

I’m good with Sasquatch. Also, they may have taken juvenile animals, not the full-size versions. 

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m good with Sasquatch. Also, they may have taken juvenile animals, not the full-size versions. 

[JAHS]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Some folks here believe that it is possible that the Book of Mormon happened in South East Asia. 

I have heard others claim it was on the island of Japan or on the Baja peninsula.

[ksfisher]

9 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Don't remember reading about how they took elephants with them, before this current reading.

 

Which current reading are you referring to?  

[JAHS]

9 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Don't remember reading about how they took elephants with them, before this current reading.

19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms. (Ether 9: 19)

This doesn't say they brought them on the barges. They may have already been there.  Mammoths may have been what was meant when they say elephants.
 

[RevTestament]

5 hours ago, JAHS said:

19 And they also had horses, and asses, and there were elephants and cureloms and cumoms; all of which were useful unto man, and more especially the elephants and cureloms and cumoms. (Ether 9: 19)

This doesn't say they brought them on the barges. They may have already been there.  Mammoths may have been what was meant when they say elephants.
 

That is doubtful. N. America had a species of forest elephants. Their exact date of extinction is unknown, but many large mammals went extinct around the end of the last ice age. This may have been due to a large asteroid that hit Greenland. Whatever the case, the forest elephants were hairy and more adapted to the temperate forests of N. America. A few could have lived on to a much later date, and I believe lived on in the art of Natives. They can be distinguished from African elephants by their much smaller ears. I personally do not believe they were brought on barges. Ether does not say that as you point out. That is an incorrect assumption. 

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, JAHS said:

I have heard others claim it was on the island of Japan or on the Baja peninsula.

Well just looking at some ways of looking at the BOM- You have that gap in time during Moroni's wandering culminating in Mormon 8:4 ;

Quote

"Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not."

And then the jumps in chronology - so altogether it seems he wandered for over 20 years- meaning he could have ended up virtually anywhere on the globe.  Of course the tradition is the Palmyra location but technically it could be practically anywhere. 

[smac97]

23 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Saw this in the Come Follow Me manual.

Don't remember reading about how they took elephants with them, before this current reading.

How big were the barges? Big enough to carry elephants? 

Told my kids they would have the chore of emptying out the leavings of the animals.

As for the curelom and cumom, suggestions from my neck of the woods include: alpaca, llama, mammoth, sasquatch, dragon, bats, donkey, burro, wild ponies, and others.

Curious to know your thoughts as a tapir, to me, doesn't seem as helpful as an elephant, per the record.

The title of this painting is "Journey of the Jaredites Across Asia" (see here and here), and hence this representation would seem to be of the Jaredites' travels before reaching the sea and building the barges.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

15 hours ago, JAHS said:

Quote

Some folks here believe that it is possible that the Book of Mormon happened in South East Asia. 

I have heard others claim it was on the island of Japan or on the Baja peninsula.

Theories placing the BOM events in Asia (Malaysia, Thailand, Japan, etc.) seem difficult to reconcile with JS-H 1:34 ("He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang."), D&C 28 (characterizing the inhabitants of the Americas as "Lamanites"), and the various references to the "New Jerusalem" being built in the Americas.  See here:

Quote

"The tenth article of faith, written by the Prophet Joseph Smith in 1842, declares that the New Jerusalem will be built upon the American continent."  (Encyclopedia of Mormonism)  Joseph learned of this "as he translated the Book of Mormon (3 Ne. 20:22; Ether 13:2-6)."  (Id.)

Nephi 20:22 states quotes the resurrected Savior as declaring: "And behold, this people will I establish in this land, unto the fulfilling of the covenant which I made with your father Jacob; and it shall be a New Jerusalem. And the powers of heaven shall be in the midst of this people; yea, even I will be in the midst of you."

Rajah, how do you reconcile this with your theory?  The Book of Mormon has Jesus saying that he "will {} establish in this land ... a New Jerusalem," which Joseph Smith in AoF 1:10 states "will be built upon the American continent."  If Jesus was in Malaysia when he was quoted in 3 Nephi, why will the "New Jerusalem" not be built there?

Ether 13:2-6 states (emphases added) :

Quote

2 For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof;
3 And that it was the place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.
4 Behold, Ether saw the days of Christ, and he spake concerning a New Jerusalem upon this land.
5 And he spake also concerning the house of Israel, and the Jerusalem from whence Lehi should come—after it should be destroyed it should be built up again, a holy city unto the Lord; wherefore, it could not be a new Jerusalem for it had been in a time of old; but it should be built up again, and become a holy city of the Lord; and it should be built unto the house of Israel—
6 And that a New Jerusalem should be built up upon this land, unto the remnant of the seed of Joseph, for which things there has been a type.

Same question as above, Rajah.  How do you reconcile your theory with Ether 13 and AoF 1:10?

The Church teaches pretty clearly that the BOM events took place in the Americas (see here).  I'm open to evidence-based reasoning, but these alternative theories seem almost entirely speculative and ad hoc.

Thanks,

-Smac

[nuclearfuels]

21 hours ago, JAHS said:

Reminded me of the story of Noah as told by Bill Cosby:

"you let me go out there and do all this stuff here, you never even looked in the bottom of that ark, have you looked down there? NO! Who's gonna clean up that mess down there!? Not me,"

 

When Noah's neighbor asks: What are you doing?

"Nothing...How long can you swim?"

-

When God tells Noah he brought two male elephants and needs to leave one and capture a female.

Noah replied: You change one of 'em!

Classic Cosby

Edited November 23, 2020 by nuclearfuels

[Rajah Manchou]

33 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Theories placing the BOM events in Asia (Malaysia, Thailand, Japan, etc.) seem difficult to reconcile with JS-H 1:34 ("He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang."), D&C 28 (characterizing the inhabitants of the Americas as "Lamanites"), and the various references to the "New Jerusalem" being built in the Americas.  See here:

The Church teaches pretty clearly that the BOM events took place in the Americas (see here).  I'm open to evidence-based reasoning, but these alternative theories seem almost entirely speculative and ad hoc.

Hi again, we've been here before. Its really not that difficult to reconcile. JS-H 1:34 makes far more sense if you place the BOM events in Asia. eg, the Book of Mormon is an account of the former inhabitants of the American continent and the source from whence they sprang ... Asia. All the pre-Columbian inhabitants of America sprang from Asia, not from Jerusalem. Repeat, the former inhabitants of the American continent sprang from Asia. JS 1:34 is difficult to reconcile with an American setting. 

Theories placing the BOM events anywhere other than Asia are also impossible to reconcile with the fact that open ocean voyages in vessels large enough to carry groups as large as the Jaredites, Mulekites and Lehites from the Middle East to the Americas weren't possible until 1492. Southeast Asia is the only location that fits the material culture of the Book of Mormon. Its the only place that had elephants, cattle, pigs, horses, silk, chariots, iron swords, scimiters in the right time. Happy to provide you with evidence of all the above again. But maybe we should compare to your evidence of these things in the Americas. The Americas had none of these in 600 BC. That's difficult to reconcile without speculation.

For example, its far easier to produce evidence of elephants being useful to man in southeast asia in 2300 BC then it is to provide evidence of elephants being useful to man in 2300 bc in the Americas. Same goes for cattle, pigs, horses, silk, chariots, iron swords, scimiters. So please, evidence based reasoning, not ad hoc speculation about hairy forest mammoths, domesticated tapirs and pineapple fiber silk. Please. The Book of Mormon works without all this stretching. No need to make it more difficult than it has to be.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[Rajah Manchou]

-

Edited November 23, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[smac97]

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Quote

Theories placing the BOM events in Asia (Malaysia, Thailand, Japan, etc.) seem difficult to reconcile with JS-H 1:34 ("He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang."), D&C 28 (characterizing the inhabitants of the Americas as "Lamanites"), and the various references to the "New Jerusalem" being built in the Americas.  See here:

The Church teaches pretty clearly that the BOM events took place in the Americas (see here).  I'm open to evidence-based reasoning, but these alternative theories seem almost entirely speculative and ad hoc.

Hi again, we've been here before. 

Yes, we have.

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Its really not that difficult to reconcile.

I think it is.  Very difficult, in fact.

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

JS-H 1:34 makes far more sense if you place the BOM events in Asia. 

The Angel Moroni, speaking to Joseph Smith in New York State, speaks of "a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang."  And you are proposing that Moroni, who again was speaking to Joseph in New York State, meant "this continent" as a reference to Asia?

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

eg, the Book of Mormon is an account of the former inhabitants of the American continent and the source from whence they sprang ... Asia. 

Lehi and the Mulekites weren't from "Asia."

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

All the pre-Columbian inhabitants of America sprang from Asia, not from Jerusalem.

Well, no.

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Repeat, the former inhabitants of the American continent sprang from Asia.

Lehi and Mulek "sprang from" Jerusalem.

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

JS 1:34 is difficult to reconcile with an American setting. 

Not really.

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Theories placing the BOM events anywhere other than Asia are also impossible to reconcile with the fact that open ocean voyages in vessels large enough to carry groups as large as the Jaredites, Mulekites and Lehites from the Middle East to the Americas weren't possible until 1492.

How large do you imagine these groups were?  And how do you know the Jaredite barges, and Lehi's ship, and Mulek's ship, "weren't possible?"

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Southeast Asia is the only location that fits the material culture of the Book of Mormon.

I quite disagree.

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Its the only place that had elephants, cattle, pigs, horses, silk, chariots, iron swords, scimiters in the right time. Happy to provide you with evidence of all the above again.

As you like.  

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

But maybe we should compare to your evidence of these things in the Americas. The Americas had none of these in 600 BC. That's difficult to reconcile without speculation.

I disagree.

8 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

For example, its far easier to produce evidence of elephants being useful to man in southeast asia in 2300 BC then it is to provide evidence of elephants being useful to man in 2300 bc in the Americas. Same goes for cattle, pigs, horses, silk, chariots, iron swords, scimiters. So please, evidence based reasoning, not ad hoc speculation about hairy forest mammoths, domesticated tapirs and pineapple fiber silk. Please. The Book of Mormon works without all this stretching. No need to make it more difficult than it has to be.

There has been plenty of scholarly literature on these topics.

I continue to find your theory ad hoc and unserious (your treatment of the New Jerusalem issue was particularly unpersuasive).  But I have no objection to you laying it out for further scrutiny.

Thanks,

-Smac

[rodheadlee]

22 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Theories placing the BOM events anywhere other than Asia are also impossible to reconcile with the fact that open ocean voyages in vessels large enough to carry groups as large as the Jaredites, Mulekites and Lehites from the Middle East to the Americas weren't possible until 1492. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=nina+pinta+santa+maria+size&rlz=1C1AJZK_enUS776US776&oq=nina%2C+pinta&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0i457j0l2j0i395l3j46i175i199i395j0i395l2.8683j1j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Those boats were tiny.

[JAHS]

46 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Theories placing the BOM events anywhere other than Asia are also impossible to reconcile with the fact that open ocean voyages in vessels large enough to carry groups as large as the Jaredites, Mulekites and Lehites from the Middle East to the Americas weren't possible until 1492. 

https://www.google.com/search?q=nina+pinta+santa+maria+size&rlz=1C1AJZK_enUS776US776&oq=nina%2C+pinta&aqs=chrome.2.69i57j0i457j0l2j0i395l3j46i175i199i395j0i395l2.8683j1j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

Those boats were tiny.

Also need to factor in divine help from God on  both the construction of the barges and providing a wind that pushed them to their destination.
Similar to the way Samson received help and strength to kill a thousand men by himself:

"And he found a new jawbone of an ***, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith.
 And Samson said, With the jawbone of an ***, heaps upon heaps, with the jaw of an *** have I slain a thousand men." (Judges 15: 15-16)

Normally no one could do that without the help from God. 

[ksfisher]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Lehi and the Mulekites weren't from "Asia."

Palestine is located in Asia. 

[Rajah Manchou]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

The Angel Moroni, speaking to Joseph Smith in New York State, speaks of "a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang."  And you are proposing that Moroni, who again was speaking to Joseph in New York State, meant "this continent" as a reference to Asia?

I am not proposing that. 

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

How large do you imagine these groups were?  And how do you know the Jaredite barges, and Lehi's ship, and Mulek's ship, "weren't possible?"

Jaredite barges were the length of a tree. We don't know much about Lehi's ship and Mulek's ship. But there's no evidence that open voyages across the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans were possible during the Book of Mormon time period. The farthest vessels were known to go in the open ocean in the Book of Mormon time period (600 BC to 420 AD) was, surprise, the Malay Peninsula. Evidence-based reasoning. Don't stretch evidence to fit your argument. 

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Lehi and the Mulekites weren't from "Asia."

Lehi and Mulek were from Jerusalem. Which locations in the world received migrations of Jews from Jerusalem as early as 600 BC? Is there evidence of Israelite migrations past the Malay Peninsula before 420 AD? Is there evidence anybody from the Middle East sailed into the Atlantic or Pacific Oceans before 420 AD? 

The maps of that period don't even show that these oceans existed. There was no knowledge of the Pacific Ocean in Lehi and Mulek's time. In that world the Indian Ocean was completely sealed off by land with the farthest islands known as Rahma and Kamara. As you know, these are toponyms found in the Book of Mormon dating to the same time period. 

The same names in the same time periods in a geography that matches the internal map of the Book of Mormon.

Evidence-based reasoning. Follow the evidence.

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

I continue to find your theory ad hoc and unserious 

I continue to find this argument lazy. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by Rajah Manchou