Covid: nonmedical discussion

[Calm]

Please post nonmedical news and ideas in this thread.  No guarantee from me if it goes political it won't get locked as while I can help by not reporting if I see it as civil, Ssomeone else might report it and mods might shut it down....but if you remain civil it seems to be allowed a bit more on this topic right now....either because those of us who report are being less vigilant or mods are being kind due to the unusual nature of the year and how we need outlets that aren't always available even in our homes right now.....

[Kenngo1969]

You wouldn't know anything about my post that just ... disappeared ... from the other thread, would you?  Noooo ... of course you wouldn't!

P.S.:  And while we're on the subject of moderation, could someone with the Mods' ear, perhaps, persuade them to fix how the text from my screen name does that annoying "wrapping"?  Why, in blazes, won't Kenngo1969 all fit on the same line?!

OK, I'm done derailing the thread.  We now return you to your regularly-scheduled, on-topic programming!

Edited November 18, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

It fits all on the same line for me.  Are you using a phone?  Maybe change your browser font or size.

Of course I asked for your post to be deleted since you wouldn't do it.  I do that for any mostly or purely political post and the mods have been most kind.

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It fits all on the same line for me.  Are you using a phone?  Maybe change your browser font or size.

Good point.  I do magnify, since I'm blind!   Okay, never mind!

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Of course I asked for your post to be deleted since you wouldn't do it.  I do that for any mostly or purely political post and the mods have been most kind.

Fair enough.  I probably deserved it.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[CV75]

I think the pandemic has certainly stressed every non-medical aspect of life. These will likely not be ameliorated through control of the pandemic alone. A simplistic example: you get sick and lose your job, but your job is no longer there for you after you get better, and new social, political, technological and economic dynamics that formed under stress are too advantageous for the powerful to turn them back (and that power can be used for both good and evil). Any polarization gives these forces even more power.

[pogi]

54 minutes ago, CV75 said:

A simplistic example: you get sick and lose your job, but your job is no longer there for you after you get better

Employees are protected from being fired for getting sick with Covid/being placed on mandated isolation/quarantine. 

Certainly markets have been stressed during the pandemic - it is a time of boom and bust.  Those who have lost their jobs may not be getting their exact jobs back once the pandemic is over, but the market in general will recover much quicker by defeating the virus.  Even without lockdowns the hard hit industries would suffer in a pandemic.  The best thing we can do for the economy is to kick the crap out of the pandemic. 

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

and new social, political, technological and economic dynamics that formed under stress are too advantageous for the powerful to turn them back (and that power can be used for both good and evil). Any polarization gives these forces even more power.

 Advantageous?  How so?  Can you give any specific examples from past pandemics where "new" "dynamics" (which you later call "power") endured long-term for evil?  What "forces" and what "power" are you talking about? 

   

[Meadowchik]

I really like the approach being taken in the UK, where in-person school for children is being prioritized. If the infection numbers get past a certain point, they might send everyone home, but the tiered restriction levels seem sensible. My school and my adult childrens' school are both all online. The minor childrens' schools have special rules to reduce infection points, like drop-off and pick up times being staggered in the mornings and afternoons, and also split between different campus entrances. Parents are not allowed inside the school grounds and are asked to be masked at the gates. We've done parent-teacher conferences by phone, which went well. At the high school, older students are required to wear masks everywhere, while younger students a required to wear them in the halls. It is not perfect, but these are concrete steps which can help reduce risk of transmission.

 

[CV75]

Here’s another take on non-medial aspects of the pandemic: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2020/10/53stevenson?lang=eng

“In recent months …I have observed others face deep disappointment and sorrow …brought on by the worldwide COVID-19 pandemic…

[and following a long list of non-medical examples]

“In short, many, many of you have dealt with heartbreaking disappointment, sorrow, and discouragement. So how do we heal, endure, and move forward when things seem so broken?”

He then offers several scriptural examples to show that our spiritual power (being “highly favored of the Lord”) during this time can continue to grow, and will continue to grow post-pandemic: becoming more home centered and Church supported; ministering in a higher and holier way; and, finding heightened joy in the return of temple ordinances.

“Brothers and sisters, I believe that one day, each of you will look back at the canceled events, the sadness, the disappointments, and the loneliness attendant to the challenging times we are passing through to see them overshadowed by choice blessings and increased faith and testimonies. I believe that in this life, and in the life to come, your afflictions, your Ammonihah, your Liberty Jail, will be consecrated for your gain. I pray that, along with Nephi, we can acknowledge the afflictions in the course of our days while at the same time recognizing that we are highly favored of the Lord.”

[Tacenda]

I've invited only my immediate family for Thanksgiving, but worried that I should, there'll be 12 of us total, so surpassed the recommended 10. I mentioned to my family that I wondered if we should eat outside or have masks inside and get tested beforehand. Then I said, just kidding on the last one. But my kids pretty much scoffed at that idea. So I said, well dad and I will be wearing masks. I tried to make it a fun statement. One of my daughters husband is anti masks, and she said if he has to wear one, then he might not be attending. He'll wear them when required, but I guess it didn't sit well doing it within our family home. Yesterday I spent an hour online, looking for some funny masks to hand out to everyone, as a fun thing to do, make it not so serious. Then I just gave up, realizing that it probably won't do it. 

I wouldn't have had Thanksgiving, had it not been for my son and DIL visiting from Boise. 

 

 

[CV75]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

Employees are protected from being fired for getting sick with Covid/being placed on mandated isolation/quarantine. 

Certainly markets have been stressed during the pandemic - it is a time of boom and bust.  Those who have lost their jobs may not be getting their exact jobs back once the pandemic is over, but the market in general will recover much quicker by defeating the virus.  Even without lockdowns the hard hit industries would suffer in a pandemic.  The best thing we can do for the economy is to kick the crap out of the pandemic. 

 Advantageous?  How so?  Can you give any specific examples from past pandemics where "new" "dynamics" (which you later call "power") endured long-term for evil?  What "forces" and what "power" are you talking about? 

   

I did say it was simplistic, and in many parts of the world this is exactly the case. But if you relate mostly to what is going on in the USA check this out:

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2020/09/24/economic-fallout-from-covid-19-continues-to-hit-lower-income-americans-the-hardest/#:~:text=Fully 15% of adults report,they are currently not employed.

At any rate, several non-medical issues are laid out in this report. Specific to the glass-half-full protections you mentioned:

- Overall, 25% of U.S. adults say they or someone in their household was laid off or lost their job because of the coronavirus outbreak

- 15% of U.S. adults (60% of the 25% above) say they personally lost a job, and half of these say they are still unemployed

- About a third of all adults (32%) have had to reduce their hours or take a pay cut due to the economic fallout from the pandemic

In  a post above I linked to a general conference talk that speaks to how these people must feel and how a gospel perspective can help, which I know it does before, during and after a crisis such as the pandemic.

Both good and evil can come out of the new dynamics forming in these non-medical areas. Those in power, or enjoying power in them, would not disrupt them. These are matters of principle. Given the novel nature of this pandemic, comparisons with the past are limited. Speaking to the economy and technology, for example in a recent news article: https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/17/economy/powell-economy-recovery/index.html Pluses and minuses, winners and losers across the board.

Both good and evil addressed here: “The 1918 Flu Pandemic …contributed to the instability around the world in the following decades. It also inspired a search for causes and cures that contributed to medical innovation in World War II, and technologies we still use today.” https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/medical-innovations-1918-flu

Good here: “Diseases have devastated human populations, but they've also inspired social upheaval and innovations.” https://www.history.com/news/pandemics-advances

Evil: These examples, probably being political and geopolitical in nature, might stir up the hypervigilant and polarized 😊

[CV75]

32 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've invited only my immediate family for Thanksgiving, but worried that I should, there'll be 12 of us total, so surpassed the recommended 10. I mentioned to my family that I wondered if we should eat outside or have masks inside and get tested beforehand. Then I said, just kidding on the last one. But my kids pretty much scoffed at that idea. So I said, well dad and I will be wearing masks. I tried to make it a fun statement. One of my daughters husband is anti masks, and she said if he has to wear one, then he might not be attending. He'll wear them when required, but I guess it didn't sit well doing it within our family home. Yesterday I spent an hour online, looking for some funny masks to hand out to everyone, as a fun thing to do, make it not so serious. Then I just gave up, realizing that it probably won't do it. 

I wouldn't have had Thanksgiving, had it not been for my son and DIL visiting from Boise. 

Good example of a non-medical aspect of COVID-19.

[strappinglad]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

there'll be 12 of us total, so surpassed the recommended 10.

This virus seems to be a sentient being , able to do Math. 😲

[bsjkki]

It's come to this. LOL

https://twitter.com/ykahan/status/1329541709714350083?s=20

[rpn]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I've invited only my immediate family for Thanksgiving, but worried that I should, there'll be 12 of us total, so surpassed the recommended 10. I mentioned to my family that I wondered if we should eat outside or have masks inside and get tested beforehand. Then I said, just kidding on the last one. But my kids pretty much scoffed at that idea. So I said, well dad and I will be wearing masks. I tried to make it a fun statement. One of my daughters husband is anti masks, and she said if he has to wear one, then he might not be attending. He'll wear them when required, but I guess it didn't sit well doing it within our family home. Yesterday I spent an hour online, looking for some funny masks to hand out to everyone, as a fun thing to do, make it not so serious. Then I just gave up, realizing that it probably won't do it. 

I wouldn't have had Thanksgiving, had it not been for my son and DIL visiting from Boise. 

 

 

I would just say, "I get that you all may have different risk assessments.    And if you do not want to come on Thanksgiving and wear a mask, stay six foot apart and be okay with sitting outside if we decide to do that too, we fully understand and will miss you (and invite you to attend via [whatever platform you can set up on a device].   If you just don't want to come at all for no reason at all, that too will not be a problem.   We will understand.    But we expect everyone who comes to wear a mask all the time except the actually eating portion, stay 6 feet apart from each other, wash down the bathroom surfaces with sterilyzer when you use it, and sit outside if we ask you too.   We do not intend to be part of spreading the virus.   Hope to see  you with those conditions."

Grownups just have to do what they think is right in hosting and respect the risk assessments made of their hosts if visiting.

[Ahab]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I've invited only my immediate family for Thanksgiving, but worried that I should, there'll be 12 of us total, so surpassed the recommended 10. I mentioned to my family that I wondered if we should eat outside or have masks inside and get tested beforehand. Then I said, just kidding on the last one. But my kids pretty much scoffed at that idea. So I said, well dad and I will be wearing masks. I tried to make it a fun statement. One of my daughters husband is anti masks, and she said if he has to wear one, then he might not be attending. He'll wear them when required, but I guess it didn't sit well doing it within our family home. Yesterday I spent an hour online, looking for some funny masks to hand out to everyone, as a fun thing to do, make it not so serious. Then I just gave up, realizing that it probably won't do it. 

I wouldn't have had Thanksgiving, had it not been for my son and DIL visiting from Boise. 

 

 

One of our sons is coming to our house for Thanksgiving.  Our other son was invited, and his wife too, but probably won't come because they (mostly his wife) said they don't want to risk getting us sick just in case they have the COVID virus.  They've been going back and forth to the hospital a lot lately and just had a baby TODAY too so that will probably also cut the chances down of them coming over.  The other son doesn't feel as sick or likely to be sick, I guess, or maybe he just doesn't care if he ends up getting us sick. My wife and I feel safe enough to risk it so we're leaving it up to each of them to choose for themselves.

[bsjkki]

45 minutes ago, rpn said:

I would just say, "I get that you all may have different risk assessments.    And if you do not want to come on Thanksgiving and wear a mask, stay six foot apart and be okay with sitting outside if we decide to do that too, we fully understand and will miss you (and invite you to attend via [whatever platform you can set up on a device].   If you just don't want to come at all for no reason at all, that too will not be a problem.   We will understand.    But we expect everyone who comes to wear a mask all the time except the actually eating portion, stay 6 feet apart from each other, wash down the bathroom surfaces with sterilyzer when you use it, and sit outside if we ask you too.   We do not intend to be part of spreading the virus.   Hope to see  you with those conditions."

Grownups just have to do what they think is right in hosting and respect the risk assessments made of their hosts if visiting.

Yeah, I would just not come. I  think your proposal is just fine though. People do have the right to set rules for their own homes and people have the right to either comply or avoid those rules. To be honest, unless you can sit outside or have all the windows open and excellent ventilation that doesn't just spread the virus around in the air currents, eating inside without a mask is going to be a problem with or without a six foot spread. Hence, why indoor dining in inherently risky. I choose to take that risk frequently.

*But, because many in my household work in the service industry and I travel often and eat out,  I will not visit my in laws who are high risk.

Edited November 19, 2020 by bsjkki

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, strappinglad said:

This virus seems to be a sentient being , able to do Math. 😲

Not only that, but it seems to know who is in which group so it can go after just certain folks.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Stargazer]

On 11/18/2020 at 10:39 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

Good point.  I do magnify, since I'm blind!   Okay, never mind!

Fair enough.  I probably deserved it.

If I hold Ctrl while twirling the mousewheel, the text size goes up and up, and no matter how up it goes, Kenngo1969 stays on a single line.

Just thought you might like to know.

[Stargazer]

On 11/19/2020 at 10:22 PM, bsjkki said:

Yeah, I would just not come. I  think your proposal is just fine though. People do have the right to set rules for their own homes and people have the right to either comply or avoid those rules. To be honest, unless you can sit outside or have all the windows open and excellent ventilation that doesn't just spread the virus around in the air currents, eating inside without a mask is going to be a problem with or without a six foot spread. Hence, why indoor dining in inherently risky. I choose to take that risk frequently.

*But, because many in my household work in the service industry and I travel often and eat out,  I will not visit my in laws who are high risk.

My wife works in a hospital as a theatre nurse. Which is to say that she assists the surgeon during surgery. But she has also worked in the ward where there are Covid patients. So far we haven't caught the thing. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

My kid's school district did their absolute level best.  They must operate under state and county health guidelines about who must be placed in isolation or quarantine, and for how long.    They had classes separated into cohorts, to limit those in contact with each other.  A kid in quarantine here, a teacher in isolation there, then a cohort here and there.  Then a shortage of substitute teachers.  Then a grade here and there moved to online learning only.  Then entire schools.  Finally, with like 10% of the school buildings closed, and 20-30% of students and staff in either isolation or quarantine, the problem was just insurmountable.  My kid is online only through the rest of the semester/calendar year.   Will try again in January.

[LoudmouthMormon]

As one of the 30k folks in the phase III vaccine trial, I've had the magic Moderna MRNA-1273 juice travelling through my veins since August.   The study has paid me around $3-400 so far.  Dollar amount for every questionnaire, in-person visit, injection, blood test, and phone interview.   It's a multiyear trial.  Unless there are complications that cost, I've probably garnered 90% of the reimbursement I'll get.

Edited November 21, 2020 by LoudmouthMormon

[Calm]

Thank you for taking the risk for the rest of us.