Jerusalem geography?

[Rain]

I know that we don't have all the answers or probably even most of them.  So I'm not asking for exacts.  Just thinking of likelihoods.  

I went to Jerusalem a few years ago.  I figured given out family situation that we would do a tour on our own.  I meant to really do much better abut preparation, but there was some family trauma happening at the time and things happened that day we wanted to be in Gethsemane that totally mixed me up.  Anyway, I have a general idea of the geography because of this, but the bibical places I don't. 

You have Jerusalem sitting on the hill.  On the other side of the valley is the BYU center and there are olive groves beneath it.  Could Bethany may be somewhere near the BYU center? 

When he came through with the palms laid on the ground was this through the lions gate?

Matthew says that they went "into the city" to have the last supper. But then he says that "when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives" and later "then cometh Jesus...unto a place called Gethsemane". So I'm thinking the last supper was probably somewhere near the wall so maybe around the Lion's gate/temple area?  

 

 

[InCognitus]

43 minutes ago, Rain said:

I know that we don't have all the answers or probably even most of them.  So I'm not asking for exacts.  Just thinking of likelihoods.  

I went to Jerusalem a few years ago.  I figured given out family situation that we would do a tour on our own.  I meant to really do much better abut preparation, but there was some family trauma happening at the time and things happened that day we wanted to be in Gethsemane that totally mixed me up.  Anyway, I have a general idea of the geography because of this, but the bibical places I don't. 

You have Jerusalem sitting on the hill.  On the other side of the valley is the BYU center and there are olive groves beneath it.  Could Bethany may be somewhere near the BYU center? 

When he came through with the palms laid on the ground was this through the lions gate?

Matthew says that they went "into the city" to have the last supper. But then he says that "when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives" and later "then cometh Jesus...unto a place called Gethsemane". So I'm thinking the last supper was probably somewhere near the wall so maybe around the Lion's gate/temple area?  

I'm answering this to put in a plug for the BYU Scriptures Mapped project (I like that site  ).  You click on a chapter of the scriptures and it shows you a map for the place names mentioned in the chapter.  I selected Matthew 21, and this is what it looks like.   Zoom in on the map to see the relationship of Bethany to the Mount of Olives.

The map associates Bethany with the modern name Al-Eizariya, and the Wikipedia article on Bethany does the same.

From what I can tell from the map, it appears that Bethany is very close to where the BYU Center is located.

Edited November 9, 2020 by InCognitus

[Rain]

1 hour ago, InCognitus said:

I'm answering this to put in a plug for the BYU Scriptures Mapped project (I like that site  ).  You click on a chapter of the scriptures and it shows you a map for the place names mentioned in the chapter.  I selected Matthew 21, and this is what it looks like.   Zoom in on the map to see the relationship of Bethany to the Mount of Olives.

The map associates Bethany with the modern name Al-Eizariya, and the Wikipedia article on Bethany does the same.

From what I can tell from the map, it appears that Bethany is very close to where the BYU Center is located.

Hm interesting. Thanks!

They put the Bethphage closer to the BYU center.  

Do we know that the last supper was in Jerusalem or could it have been in Bethany?  

It's interesting that they put the mount of Olives between Gethsemane and Bethany.  If you go by Matt 26 (I'm going through the gospels one at a time and putting it down in a spreadsheet so I haven't reached the other 3 yet) and the last supper was in Jerusalem then according to this map they left Jerusalem, went past Gethsemane to the Mount of Olives and then back to Gethsemane.  

So I was wondering if they did the last supper in Bethany or if the mount of olives was on the Jerusalem slope.  There is nothing to say in Matthew that they couldn't have gone back towards Jerusalem.  It just seems a little....odd.  

 

 

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Hm interesting. Thanks!

They put the Bethphage closer to the BYU center.  

Do we know that the last supper was in Jerusalem or could it have been in Bethany?  

It's interesting that they put the mount of Olives between Gethsemane and Bethany.  If you go by Matt 26 (I'm going through the gospels one at a time and putting it down in a spreadsheet so I haven't reached the other 3 yet) and the last supper was in Jerusalem then according to this map they left Jerusalem, went past Gethsemane to the Mount of Olives and then back to Gethsemane. 

I believe Gethsemane is on the slope of the mount of Olives.  So verse 30 has them leaving Jerusalem for the mount of Olives and the place they go to on the mount of Olives is Gethsemane.

[mrmarklin]

On 11/9/2020 at 4:51 PM, webbles said:

I believe Gethsemane is on the slope of the mount of Olives.  So verse 30 has them leaving Jerusalem for the mount of Olives and the place they go to on the mount of Olives is Gethsemane.

To be clear:

 

Bethany is on the east slope of the Mount of Olives.  Gethsemane is at the bottom of the other side of the mount. The same side as the LDS center and the Orson  Hyde dedication site.   These face Old Town Jerusalem. 
All of these sites are located in former Palestinian territory, now annexed by Israel.  It is much disputed about. 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

To be clear:

 

Bethany is on the east slope of the Mount of Olives.  Gethsemane is at the bottom of the other side of the mount. The same side as the LDS center and the Orson  Hyde dedication site.   These face Old Town Jerusalem. 
All of these sites are located in former Palestinian territory, now annexed by Israel.  It is much disputed about. 

Thanks!

So are these the traditional sites or was there some kind of prophecy or evidence to them?  I know a lot of sites are traditionally accepted as the place by one or the other group and some sites may have been actually found archaeologically.  I just am not sure which ones are which.  

Please know I understand there is little that we can get exactly.  I am just trying to find the best estimates of them.

[Ahab]

37 minutes ago, Rain said:

Thanks!

So are these the traditional sites or was there some kind of prophecy or evidence to them?  I know a lot of sites are traditionally accepted as the place by one or the other group and some sites may have been actually found archaeologically.  I just am not sure which ones are which.  

Please know I understand there is little that we can get exactly.  I am just trying to find the best estimates of them.

I think it is at least a little bit like phone tag.  Someone a long time ago said something like "This is the place where so and so happened" to someone else and then that person said it to someone else and so on and so on and now all we have are other people repeating what they were told.

[mrmarklin]

10 hours ago, Ahab said:

I think it is at least a little bit like phone tag.  Someone a long time ago said something like "This is the place where so and so happened" to someone else and then that person said it to someone else and so on and so on and now all we have are other people repeating what they were told.

These sites were located by Helena, Constantine’s mother, during her trip to the Holy Land ca. 325 AD. There was a Christian community that helped point out these prominent places. 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

These sites were located by Helena, Constantine’s mother, during her trip to the Holy Land ca. 325 AD. There was a Christian community that helped point out these prominent places. 

That's what I was wondering - if she picked out Gethsemane and the grove. I know that some of the sites are disputed,  but I'm not sure which and by whom.  I had the impression though that Helena just kind of came on and picked places, but I don't know where I got that from. 

 

[mrmarklin]

On 11/13/2020 at 6:41 AM, Rain said:

That's what I was wondering - if she picked out Gethsemane and the grove. I know that some of the sites are disputed,  but I'm not sure which and by whom.  I had the impression though that Helena just kind of came on and picked places, but I don't know where I got that from. 

 

No one knows how accurate any of this stuff is. Likely Bethany was still a village then, and of course the Mt of Olives didn’t move. 
places like the Manger, the Tomb of Christ, are much more dubious.  Helena is rumored to have taken with her  a chunk of the True Cross, and her statues reflect this. She is a saint in the Catholic Church. 

[RevTestament]

On 11/15/2020 at 5:06 AM, mrmarklin said:

No one knows how accurate any of this stuff is. Likely Bethany was still a village then, and of course the Mt of Olives didn’t move. 
places like the Manger, the Tomb of Christ, are much more dubious.  Helena is rumored to have taken with her  a chunk of the True Cross, and her statues reflect this. She is a saint in the Catholic Church. 

No surprise... the Catholics don't get anything right.

[Gervin]

No surprise ... anti-Catholic bigotry on an LDS board.

[Gervin]

On 11/15/2020 at 7:06 AM, mrmarklin said:

No one knows how accurate any of this stuff is. Likely Bethany was still a village then, and of course the Mt of Olives didn’t move. 
places like the Manger, the Tomb of Christ, are much more dubious.  Helena is rumored to have taken with her  a chunk of the True Cross, and her statues reflect this. She is a saint in the Catholic Church. 

As I understand from time visiting when my parents lived in Israel, invading groups - Romans in particular, would desecrate supposed holy sites by erecting secular or Roman shrines in their place.  When Helena went looking for sites associated with Christian origins, these locations were not hidden or lost - they were enshrined by the conquering culture. 

[RevTestament]

8 hours ago, Gervin said:

No surprise ... anti-Catholic bigotry on an LDS board.

Bigotry is not based on reason or fact. If you want to believe Helena was inspired, can't stop you.... She was inspired to support her son's rule and to do things to glorify the Roman Empire. I am not. I am inspired by truth.

[Rain]

Please keep this on topic.