Intelligences that were organized before the world was

[bluebell]

What do we know about intelligences?  Do we have any teachings on them other than the few verses in D&C 93 and Abraham?

[pogi]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

What do we know about intelligences?  Do we have any teachings on them other than the few verses in D&C 93 and Abraham?

Here is a good resource for historical teachings in the church on the subject:

https://rsc.byu.edu/pearl-great-price-revelations-god/history-intelligence-latter-day-saint-thought

 

[InCognitus]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

Here is a good resource for historical teachings in the church on the subject:

https://rsc.byu.edu/pearl-great-price-revelations-god/history-intelligence-latter-day-saint-thought

 

I like that.  I was also going to also suggest:  

The Development of the Doctrine of Preexistence, 1830-1844
by Charles R. Harrell
Charles R. Harrell; BYU Studies Vol. 28, No. 2, pg.75

Edited November 2, 2020 by InCognitus

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

Here is a good resource for historical teachings in the church on the subject:

https://rsc.byu.edu/pearl-great-price-revelations-god/history-intelligence-latter-day-saint-thought

 

Thanks!

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

I like that.  I was also going to also suggest:  

The Development of the Doctrine of Preexistence, 1830-1844
by Charles R. Harrell
Charles R. Harrell; BYU Studies Vol. 28, No. 2, pg.75

Thank you!

[CV75]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

What do we know about intelligences?  Do we have any teachings on them other than the few verses in D&C 93 and Abraham?

I see you have some fine resources from other posters. In my opinion, these are serviceable working models that serve particular purposes for particular people at particular times. I think it is safe to say that you are intelligence, and have access to the ultimate key of knowledge as described in D&C 84, 128 and 130. Intelligence as the ability to apply knowledge is of course a definition of agency, and being described by our Creator as intelligences or agents (i.e. sentient abilities or talents), to me, conveys that we are extensions and expressions of God who perfects His talents (note the sealing power in 128 and its connection with the continuation of the seeds in 132). That is a long, roundabout way of saying we find ourselves by losing ourselves in God  .

Edited November 2, 2020 by CV75

[The Nehor]

The scripture is pretty much all we know. The rest is commentary of dubious value.

[strappinglad]

Is intelligence like a soup where God can scoop out as much as He wants for each spirit, or does intelligence come in discreet packages so only one packet per spirit? Analogy is a poor substitute in this case. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The scripture is pretty much all we know. The rest is commentary of dubious value.

I would say the scriptures mentioning "intelligence" are pretty much all we have in writing in the canon. The value of all the rest is quite subjective.

Edited November 3, 2020 by CV75

[Nofear]

23 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Is intelligence like a soup where God can scoop out as much as He wants for each spirit, or does intelligence come in discreet packages so only one packet per spirit? Analogy is a poor substitute in this case. 

Some have had that kind of idea but me, not so much. I start with the first postulate 1) that intelligences are uncreate, that it is a something "that never was created, neither indeed can be." Where I diverge from most Latter-day Saints who have thought about the issue is that for me, is it most logically coherent to say intelligences are "simple". And by "simple' I mean that is is indivisible and without constituent parts, a true monad. But that has profound consequences. A simple object/something cannot have different internal states -- it simply is one thing at a time (caveat: it may be possible to be one thing which is a superposition of multiple singular states, quantum mechanical like).

My second postulate is that 2) intelligent matter/stuff is distinct from physical or spirit matter in that it possesses the ability to act without being acted upon. That is, it is truly indeterministic. This violates a profound number of physical laws.

Why would an intelligent entity need to be anything different than what it is? An object that has only one state cannot have memory. Memory requires a plurality of variable internal states -- which by postulate 1) intelligent matter does not have. While intelligences can act without being acted upon, any action is essentially random and for all practicable purposes indistinguishable from deterministic matter. Putting it bluntly, intelligent matter isn't intelligent at all and not really much of anything. Time would be meaningless. Sequences of events would be meaningless.

However, if one can attach the indeterministic intelligent matter with device that could contain a plurality of states--like a body, spirit and/or physical--than the intelligent matter at the core of that body could have access to things like memory and perception and other processing. It's possible some intelligent matter would simply continue to be randomish in behavior but apparently some, at least, showed not-so-random behavior (e.g. us).


That's the physics postulates behind intelligent matter I work with. It also solves some problems such as identity and moral culpability. My identity is not fundamentally my body, brain, spirit, spirit body or anything like that. It *is* my intelligent matter core -- an object that is without creation. God does not govern its behavior. It can act without being acted upon. It is a causa sui. Though my body might be destroyed, intelligent matter cannot be created or destroyed. I cannot cease to exist.

Anyway, there is much more that could be said. But, it also takes subscribing to the first two postulates. In my experience most Latter-day Saints do not. They fancy to themselves the idea that it makes sense for a complex entity with constituent parts and complex organization exists into the infinite past -- that it's turtles all the way down.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Nofear

[Maidservant]

It's just you.

 

8 hours ago, Nofear said:

 that it's turtles all the way down.

no elephants? 😋

[RevTestament]

On 11/2/2020 at 12:05 PM, bluebell said:

What do we know about intelligences?  Do we have any teachings on them other than the few verses in D&C 93 and Abraham?

I think Abraham 3 is quite informative on this issue - moreso than the Church seems to have taught in the past:

17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will ^ado it.

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two ^aspirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are ^bgnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am ^amore intelligent than they all.

So these spirits are the intelligences spoken of, but also eternal. They always existed. In other words intelligences are spirits, and spirits have always existed. The Lord does not claim to have formed or created them - ie no heavenly birth of spirit babies. He organized them by their natures - I believe in the test of the world system by which they agreed to. 

[bluebell]

47 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I think Abraham 3 is quite informative on this issue - moreso than the Church seems to have taught in the past:

17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will ^ado it.

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two ^aspirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are ^bgnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am ^amore intelligent than they all.

So these spirits are the intelligences spoken of, but also eternal. They always existed. In other words intelligences are spirits, and spirits have always existed. The Lord does not claim to have formed or created them - ie no heavenly birth of spirit babies. He organized them by their natures - I believe in the test of the world system by which they agreed to. 

I have heard that interpretation before, but I've also heard it refuted.  It seems to depend on how different word are interpreted by each person.

[Ahab]

On 11/2/2020 at 11:05 AM, bluebell said:

What do we know about intelligences?  Do we have any teachings on them other than the few verses in D&C 93 and Abraham?

Interesting that you seem to think there is one of us who can speak for what all of us know.  You do at least see how it looks that is what you are saying by you asking what "we" know, don't you?  We can include everybody, including our Father in heaven and our Lord.

I of course can only speak for myself and anyone else who somehow also knows what I know, so I will now tell you a little bit about what I know and leave you to find out if what I am saying is true.

I've read those 2 articles that were cited earlier in this thread and what I know from what I can see is that many of us, including some apostles and prophets of our Lord, have varying levels of intelligence regarding all of the intelligences in existence.

And did you notice that very few people in those articles used words like "life" or "reproduction" to describe intelligences?  And for those who believes intelligences are eternal, where exactly do they think those intelligences are?  or were? or will be?

To me it is as clear as I can imagine it ever being that intelligences is a word that is often used to refer to particular kinds of being, or to use some other words, particular kinds of life forms or living beings.  Beings which are eternal, whatever kind of being those individual intelligences happen to be, and which can eternally reproduce themselves.  Beings which had no beginning because life itself has no beginning, and never had, or ever will.  Like how we see things in this world continually reproduce themselves, with no apparent beginning to any of it.

So it's not just turtles all the way down, with no bottom to ever stop going down to, but every other kind of being there is and has ever been.  Including hybrids too.  You don't think we were the first ones to see horses and donkeys make jack asses, do you?

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I have heard that interpretation before, but I've also heard it refuted.  It seems to depend on how different word are interpreted by each person.

You will always see that... people refuting something,,,  as long as you look for it.  It's simply an indication that someone doesn't agree with someone else. 

An indication of varying degrees of intelligence, as I see it, whatever kind of intelligence those individuals happen to be.

[Ahab]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I think Abraham 3 is quite informative on this issue - moreso than the Church seems to have taught in the past:

17 Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it; and there is nothing that the Lord thy God shall take in his heart to do but what he will ^ado it.

18 Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two ^aspirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are ^bgnolaum, or eternal.

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am ^amore intelligent than they all.

As I read this I envision our Lord trying to teach someone a very simple fact of life regarding 2 different kinds of living beings (here referred to as intelligences): that our kind of being is more intelligent than all other kinds of beings.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I have heard that interpretation before, but I've also heard it refuted.  It seems to depend on how different word are interpreted by each person.

And context as well.

If the ancient Hebrew sense has anything to so with it, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh : Nephesh (נֶ֫פֶשׁ‎ nép̄eš) is a Biblical Hebrew word which occurs in the Hebrew Bible. The word refers to the aspects of sentience... One view is that nephesh relates to sentient being without the idea of life and that, rather than having a nephesh, a sentient creation of God is a nephesh. In Genesis 2:7 the text is not that Adam was given a nephesh but that Adam "became a living nephesh."

If the ancient Egyptian sense has anything to do with it, see: https://www.um.es/cepoat/egipcio/wp-content/uploads/egyptianhierogly.pdf :

 

[Ahab]

34 minutes ago, CV75 said:

And context as well.

If the ancient Hebrew sense has anything to so with it, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephesh : Nephesh (נֶ֫פֶשׁ‎ nép̄eš) is a Biblical Hebrew word which occurs in the Hebrew Bible. The word refers to the aspects of sentience... One view is that nephesh relates to sentient being without the idea of life and that, rather than having a nephesh, a sentient creation of God is a nephesh. In Genesis 2:7 the text is not that Adam was given a nephesh but that Adam "became a living nephesh."

If the ancient Egyptian sense has anything to do with it, see: https://www.um.es/cepoat/egipcio/wp-content/uploads/egyptianhierogly.pdf :

 

The text states that our Father put Adam's spirit into Adam's body... which had recently been formed by his parents from the elements of the planet as it was then... at which point Adam's body became a living nephesh.

So, as we can see from this example, the first step a man and woman make to reproduce themselves is to reproduce their spirit, and then form a (or another) body for that spirit, and then put the spirit of that person into that body.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

The text states that our Father put Adam's spirit into Adam's body... which had recently been formed by his parents from the elements of the planet as it was then... at which point Adam's body became a living nephesh.

So, as we can see from this example, the first step a man and woman make to reproduce themselves is to reproduce their spirit, and then form a (or another) body for that spirit, and then put the spirit of that person into that body.

Before the spirit and body were connected, there was no living nephesh; rather, there was no nephesh living in the paradisiacal estate. If the nephesh is gnolaum or eternal, and sentient, it would be "alive" in any estate, but under the terms and contexts of those estates. Dead, for that matter as well, as a dead man in our world is also alive in the spirit world.

The Egyptian usage also indicates that the word for intelligence conveys something most fundamental (middle/interior, will, mind, self).

(ETA) An hour later, it occurs to me that one might wonder how a couple can reproduce their spirits when the child is co-eternal with them and they all are co-eternal with God. Perhaps God being “more intelligent than they all” refers to His greatly expanded progress (hearkening to the Egyptian concept of “middle” or “interior” and "self") as in D&C 88:12-13. On a genetic basis alone, your parents (and back to Adam and Eve) are in the midst of you as their DNA progressed through the millennia.

Edited November 4, 2020 by CV75

[Nofear]

7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

So these spirits are the intelligences spoken of, but also eternal. They always existed. In other words intelligences are spirits, and spirits have always existed. The Lord does not claim to have formed or created them - ie no heavenly birth of spirit babies. He organized them by their natures - I believe in the test of the world system by which they agreed to. 

1) It doesn't appear that one read pogi's link. Elder McConkie does not subscribe to your claims. Though, to be fair, I quite disagree with some of his interpretations too. Nonetheless, his opinion has consistency with several prophetic opinions on the matter. (https://emp.byui.edu/SatterfieldB/Quotes/Intelligence and Spirit.html)

Quote

Intelligence or light and truth, is also used as a synonym for spirit element. Scriptures using both terms speak of the self-existent nature of the substance involved. (D. & C. 93:29; 131:7-8.) Abraham calls the pre-existent spirits the intelligences that were organized before the world was" (Abra. 3:22) because the intelligences were organized intelligence or in other words the spirit bodies were born from spirit element.   (Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., p.387)

Abraham used the name intelligences to apply to the spirit children of the Eternal Father. The intelligence or spirit element became intelligences after the spirits were born as individual entities. (Abra. 3:22-74.) Use of this name designates both the primal element from which the spirit offspring were created and also their inherited capacity to grow in grace, knowledge power and intelligence itself, until such intelligences, gaining the fulness of all things, become like their Father, the Supreme Intelligence.  (Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed., p.387)

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Nofear

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Before the spirit and body were connected, there was no living nephesh; rather, there was no nephesh living in the paradisiacal estate. If the nephesh is gnolaum or eternal, and sentient, it would be "alive" in any estate, but under the terms and contexts of those estates. Dead, for that matter as well, as a dead man in our world is also alive in the spirit world.

The Egyptian usage also indicates that the word for intelligence conveys something most fundamental (middle/interior, will, mind, self).

I agree, if I understand you correctly.  We have always existed in some state, or estate.  We are and were and always have been somewhere, whether or not we knew where we were, and now are.   The next issue to understand is where we are going.

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

(ETA) An hour later, it occurs to me that one might wonder how a couple can reproduce their spirits when the child is co-eternal with them and they all are co-eternal with God. Perhaps God being “more intelligent than they all” refers to His greatly expanded progress (hearkening to the Egyptian concept of “middle” or “interior” and "self") as in D&C 88:12-13. On a genetic basis alone, your parents (and back to Adam and Eve) are in the midst of you as their DNA progressed through the millennia.

The fact that a child is a reproduction of its parents conveys the idea that the child is a part of its parents... and grand parents, and its other parents however great or grand they may be.  Hence we were gods in embryos even before we were embryos,

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, Maidservant said:

It's just you.

 

no elephants? 😋

Just 3, but they are really big.

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Bernard Gui