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collateral damage from covid


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4 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

One of the reasons I find the Book of Mormon a fascination piece of literature and scripture is its defense of personal freedom and responsibility.   Free will.   

In Joseph Smith's day, religious academics debated free will versus predestination.  The Book of Mormon is a good response on the free will side.

Pogi argues for socialized medicine, socialized government services, socialized employment (everybody's a government worker) and socialized scientific investigation.   I suppose an argument can be made for such malarky, but I don't see it.

You want better health care?   Get the government out of setting Medicare rates.  It is one thing to provide health care for seniors, and another to dictate when and whether a kidney transplant will be allowed.  

You want a better response to COVID 19?  The last thing government should do is shut down the economy, as the collateral consequences far outweigh the risk of viral infection.  As Jesus said, "The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me."  We will always have viruses and risks of plague and infection, but we should focus ourselves on making ourselves right with God and let the economy deal with the virus risk.

I think people have a very hard time understanding the alternative, of doing nothing. How many businesses will suffer and struggle because their staff are sick? How many more essential workers will be lost because they are over-exposed? How many more people will be lost or disabled by the virus?

Have you run numbers on that?

It's amazing how readily some understand sacrificing greatly in defending our soil from human invaders but change their tune completely when it is an invading illness. 

Edited by Meadowchik
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27 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I think people have a very hard time understanding the alternative, of doing nothing. How many businesses will suffer and struggle because their staff are sick? How many more essential workers will be lost because they are over-exposed? How many more people will be lost or disabled by the virus?

Have you run numbers on that?

It's amazing how readily some understand sacrificing greatly in defending our soil from human invaders but change their tune completely when it is an invading illness. 

I am saying that the free market will take care of it and people will react.  Asians were freely traveling with masks long before this crisis. 

Do not trust public health officials one iota. 

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3 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Do not trust public health officials one iota. 

One of the reasons why East Asians have managed to get Covid under control enough so that they are able to keep businesses for the most part (not Tourism) going and life relatively normal now is because of high levels of trust in their public health officials as reported by various media (I linked to at least one in the Covid medical thread) and my brother who lives in Singapore who I just used as a fact-check an hour ago. Singapore is in his words very proRepublican (all for big business) and very proDemocrat (pushes programs for people asa way to achieve that type of business progress).  The country made some mistakes at the beginning of the pandemic, but corrected them and the people forgave that while continuing to follow instructions rather than using past error to resist current policies. 

He also said it wasn’t feasible to expect that type of compliance in the US.

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Do not trust public health officials one iota. 

Why?  What do they have to gain from lying?

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

One of the reasons why East Asians have managed to get Covid under control enough so that they are able to keep businesses for the most part (not Tourism) going is because of high levels of trust in their public health officials as reported by various media (I linked to at least one in the Covid medical thread) and my brother who lives in Singapore who I just used as a fact-check an hour ago. Singapore is in his words very proRepublican (all for big business) and very proDemocrat (pushes programs for people asa way to achieve that type of business progress).  The country made some mistakes at the beginning of the pandemic, but corrected them and the people forgave that while continuing to follow instructions rather than using past error to resist current policies. 

He also said it wasn’t feasible to expect that type of compliance in the US.

Really now, you want to place your trust in the findings of public officials?  Trump doctors cannot agree amongst themselves; they are governed by political concerns.  I see conflicting statements from them.  

It is so easy for the states to simply shut down businesses.  Utah is somewhat exempt from this, but for the rest of us we aren't.  There's very little science behind this particular decision.  Public health officials are corrupt, venal and lazy when it comes to a major emergency.  Not all, but economic studies demonstrate through theoretical formulae that it is the very nature of humankind to be corrupt, venal and lazy under these particular circumstances.  I was an economics professor; I've seen the studies and the proofs demonstrated to me.  Look at Pogi's arguments.  I know you favor them because your husband is a public employee, but exactly where have these decisions gotten us in this pandemic?  Over the cliff.

We cannot rely upon anecdotal evidence; many here point to Trump's experience with the virus and say -- hey, it isn't bad.  It is just an anecdote. 

The overwhelming mistake here was to use socialism to shut down the economy.  It is better to deal with known science without throwing people out of their homes and into the streets. 

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7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Why?  What do they have to gain from lying?

To be freaking lazy.  To sit home and collect a paycheck.  To do nothing.  I know.  I've seen it; I've witnessed it.  They don't have the imperative to satisfy the customer because they get paid no matter what.  

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12 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

To be freaking lazy.  To sit home and collect a paycheck.  To do nothing.  I know.  I've seen it; I've witnessed it.  They don't have the imperative to satisfy the customer because they get paid no matter what.  

We are talking about public health officials.

If you think that public health officials are being “freaking lazy” right now, you are “freaking” crazy.  This is all hands on deck!  They have the weight of the nation on their shoulders.  Theirs is the responsibility to reduce suffering and prevent death.  That is their burden.  I don’t believe you that you have seen public health officials being lazy during the pandemic.  Again, what incentive do public health officials have to lie?  
How would lying about the virus and lying about appropriate/effective measures to fight/control the virus make their job easier?  Lying would only make thing worse for them.  An out of control virus is not in their best interest in terms of being lazy.  The best way they have to make their job easier is to defeat the virus.  

I am tired of you maligning public health officials.  

Edited by pogi
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1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

Really now, you want to place your trust in the findings of public officials? 

You ignored my point which was where the success of East Asians in not having to lock down businesses and still be able to have an opened country at least internally was because they were following public health officials, who made mistakes but learned from them...and the public didn't reject them because they didn't get it right from the beginning.  

It wasn't the free market that got the doors back open in East Asian.

Testing and contact tracing as directed by public health officials was as important as wearing masks and social distancing in East Asia.  We had at least two disadvantages here in the states...East Asians did not see it as an invasion of liberties to be tracked and many places had infrastructure already in place to do effective contact tracing.  And very important, their governments invested heavily into doing it right rather than the half measures done in the States (no offense to you and your fellow workers, Pogi).

They were hit with the virus immediately in East Asia, no weeks of warning to prepare.  Yet they manage to drop rates quickly and so far keep them down...because they listened to public health officials and got tested and didn't protest or refuse being tracked.

PS:  I am not lauding East Asian governments in general.  According to much public perception and reports of international media, corruption in government and business is massive in some countries.  The other countries I haven't studied enough to be able to judge, but my guess is there is lots of it.

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

I know you favor them because your husband is a public employee

Oh please....I favor them because I have looked at the science surrounding Covid, read the studies I can track down including the ones that contradict others (don't always understand them...not claiming that, rely heavily on abstracts), read much of the pro and con analysis of the studies, looked at what has been successful and what hasn't in other countries....I have way too much time on my hands and doing research like that is how I pass much of it.  I do admit to skipping the commentaries of those who appeal to demon spawn in their theories of disease,

And I trust the public health officials not in general, but the ones who appear to be following the science as well.  I have seen little reason to trust Scott Atlas for example.

I am not particularly fond of bureaucracy because of the major hassles in immigrating to Canada and then returning to the States 13 years later.  It was ridiculous.  I wouldn't call them lazy, but so inefficient.  Then there are the hoops jumping for getting stuff done for my mother when my dad died...though what really screwed things up was the private businesses that tried to shaft her as a customer for the least excuse without fair warning.

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It is better to deal with known science without throwing people out of their homes and into the streets.

Right...because that was public health officials doing that and not their landlords.

Edited by Calm
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4 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

I am saying that the free market will take care of it and people will react.  Asians were freely traveling with masks long before this crisis. 

Do not trust public health officials one iota. 

Ah, so no. You don't know.

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There must be a vast difference between Bob the lawyer and Bob the poster if he is at all a successful lawyer. His "arguments" here are nothing but vague and general assertions without evidence ("all public employees are lazy because I've seen it!" doesn't count as evidence -- you know that, lawyer Bob, right?)

If I were researching a law firm to hire and came across Bob's posts here, I would immediately scratch him off the list.

C'mon, Bob, why don't you bring in your lawyer self? Give reasoned arguments with evidence and sources. Take a look at @smac97 posts for some guidance. While I think he overdoes it sometimes, at least you can tell he's a lawyer and is trying to use arguments and evidence.

 

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3 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

There must be a vast difference between Bob the lawyer and Bob the poster if he is at all a successful lawyer. His "arguments" here are nothing but vague and general assertions without evidence ("all public employees are lazy because I've seen it!" doesn't count as evidence -- you know that, lawyer Bob, right?)

If I were researching a law firm to hire and came across Bob's posts here, I would immediately scratch him off the list.

C'mon, Bob, why don't you bring in your lawyer self? Give reasoned arguments with evidence and sources. Take a look at @smac97 posts for some guidance. While I think he overdoes it sometimes, at least you can tell he's a lawyer and is trying to use arguments and evidence.

 

Hah hah.  I've heard this ad hominem several times on the one anti-Mormon board I frequent.  I disagree with Bob's philosophy (which has little or nothing to do with the law) and thus he is a terrible lawyer.  You know absolutely nothing of my law practice, but you can see it described at bobcrockettlaw.com.  As you can see, the California State Bar has recently named me "Lawyer of the Year." I think I know what I'm doing. 

I'm sorry that I'm a libertarian.  I've had deep training in libertarian economics, have a degree and have taught at the university level in the subject.  Most people don't understand libertarian philosophy, and they expect the government to swoop in and protect them from economic and other catastrophe.  It doesn't work that way.   Socialism and fascism usually lead to catastrophe because of the interposition of interventionist and self-interest government politics.  The natural inclination of government, any government, is to perpetuate itself and expand.  Government hires "public health officials" like Pogi, I imagine, who don't see patients or treat them.  We see these folks speak nonsense on behalf of the Trump administration.  Ronald Reagan made a true effort to reduce the role of government in our families and did a lot of cutting.  Trump hasn't done that.  The Bushes were socialists in disguise; lazy beauracrates who became swamp politicians.  Bill Clinton had a semi-effective economic policy and did a lot to expand free trade and eliminate tariffs.  Good economic policy transcends political parties. 

But to insult me and the type of lawyer I am is way beyond the pale, really.     

Edited by Bob Crockett
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1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

I disagree with Bob's philosophy (which has little or nothing to do with the law) and thus he is a terrible lawyer.

I'm not disagreeing with your philosophy. My post was not about the topic, but the arguments. I'm saying you aren't making real arguments here at all.

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

As you can see, the California State Bar has recently named me "Lawyer of the Year." I think I know what I'm doing. 

Congrats! Why don't you bring the argumentation skills you use as a lawyer into the discussion here? Surely you can see that if you argued in a court the way you argue here you wouldn't be "Lawyer of the Year" yes? Because here you aren't giving arguments -- you're giving broad generalizations without specific evidence. As Lawyer of the Year, you realize that arguments of that type are terrible, yes?

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

I'm sorry that I'm a libertarian.  I've had deep training in libertarian economics, have a degree and have taught at the university level in the subject.  Most people don't understand libertarian philosophy, and they expect the government to swoop in and protect them from economic and other catastrophe.  It doesn't work that way.   Socialism and fascism usually lead to catastrophe because of the interposition of interventionist and self-interest government politics.  The natural inclination of government, any government, is to perpetuate itself and expand.  Government hires "public health officials" like Pogi, I imagine, who don't see patients or treat them.  We see these folks speak nonsense on behalf of the Trump administration.  Ronald Reagan made a true effort to reduce the role of government in our families and did a lot of cutting.  Trump hasn't done that.  The Bushes were socialists in disguise; lazy beauracrates who became swamp politicians.  Bill Clinton had a semi-effective economic policy and did a lot to expand free trade and eliminate tariffs.  Good economic policy transcends political parties. 

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about libertarianism, so responding to this paragraph would be following that smokey red herring, which I'm not going to do. I'm talking about the way you argue here.

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

But to insult me and the type of lawyer I am is way beyond the pale, really.

I didn't insult the type of lawyer you are. Reread my post. I said bring lawyer Bob into the discussion forum. Argue here like you argue as a lawyer. It'll be much more effective.

Edited by MiserereNobis
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13 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I'm not disagreeing with your philosophy. My post was not about the topic, but the arguments. I'm saying you aren't making real arguments here at all.

Congrats! Why don't you bring the argumentation skills you use as a lawyer into the discussion here? Surely you can see that if you argued in a court the way you argue here you wouldn't be "Lawyer of the Year" yes? Because here you aren't giving arguments -- you're giving broad generalizations without specific evidence. As Lawyer of the Year, you realize that arguments of that type are terrible, yes?

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about libertarianism, so responding to this paragraph would be following that smokey red herring, which I'm not going to do. I'm talking about the way you argue here.

I didn't insult the type of lawyer you are. Reread my post. I said bring lawyer Bob into the discussion forum. Argue here like you argue as a lawyer. It'll be much more effective.

You just don't like my arguments and, hence, can summarily dismiss them as incompetent. 

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35 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

You just don't like my arguments and, hence, can summarily dismiss them as incompetent. 

They are terrible arguments.  There is absolutely nothing credible about them.  The arguments themselves are incompetent.  You claim that we can't believe a word that public health officials say.  "Why?"  I asked.  Because  they lie so they can be "freaking lazy".  You claim to have witnessed it.   When probed further...silence.  Nothing to back up your claims.    How have they lied?  How are they being "lazy"?  When did you ever witness a public health official lie during the pandemic so they can be "freaking lazy" and not work?    Also, how can you prove that it is a systemic problem (as you claim that we can't trust "them") and not isolated to your area?  Provide details that would be important for a lawyer to use if he was actually trying to prove his case.  You are simply spewing hearsay that is totally unbelievable.  We know what public health officials are doing.  We see them on the news every day, they are visiting our states (the federal public health workers) - all of them.  I work with them.  I work closely with local health officials, and I have worked closely with CDC health officials when they visit.  We work together.  We coordinate on the County, State, and Federal level.  They are working around the clock.  They are stressed.  They are concerned for our communities.  They are stepping up to the task.  They are working their tails off.  We see right through your completely unbelievable claims.  We are in the middle of a pandemic and you expect me to believe that public health officials are lying where you live so that they can be lazy???  Come on, you have to try harder than that.  Everyone here sees right through it.  I'm sure you are perfectly competent and good at what you do, but you clearly don't bring your work skills here.   We would have expected more believable and persuasive arguments.  All you are doing is spewing slander, nothing more.   

Edited by pogi
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23 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

You just don't like my arguments and, hence, can summarily dismiss them as incompetent. 

Thanks for providing more evidence that your argumentation here is terrible :) 

Seriously, bring your lawyer skills. Since you are Lawyer of the Year, you should be able to do better than your one-liners, throw-away insults, vast generalizations based on personal anecdotal evidence, and now your appeals to authority.

I could be 100% libertarian and still think your arguments are terrible. It's not about what you are trying to persuade, but how you are doing it.

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